Who are the Top 10 Players of 2012?

[leffen]

Interesting, elaborate.

Oh wait, you wont.

 

[Bing]

And now I am Laughing.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Interesting, elaborate.

Oh wait, you wont.

Use google.

 

[Warhawk]

I agree with you leffen that a loss is still a loss, but that doesn't mean people are using bad logic to say that there's insufficient evidence to say that Javi is better than PP just because PP lost to Javi. PP has had victories against many more reputable smashers than Javi has and has won nationals (Javi might have been in and won one in Mexico and I could just be ignorant of this but I can't think of a national that took place there). Maybe Javi is better than PP, but I don't think its a stretch to say that the one national they were both a part of isn't enough to say that he is anything more than that he could potentially be better than PP.

 

[The Good Doctor]

If Javi knows how to read English, he is probably laughing his *** off.

 

[leffen]

I know what poe's law is

I fail to make the connection - I shrug at the thought of putting PP under Javi is so radical enough lol esp with the explanation I've done.

and yeah "you shouldn't let yourself be trolled that easily pm"
LOL u child

@Warhawk - I can relate to people who think "he might be better" but being SURE over that PP is better is really stupid, which is what many many ppl did.
People put him below 6th etc... I can't honestly see why you could put either M2K or Shroomed over him. That is just blatantly ignorant.

I'm also fairly certain that everyone in mexico thinks PP is a little worse than Javi. Would you not agree?

 

[ERayz]

I don't use inui logic like you imply, but a loss is still a loss.

Hmm... lol
You say you don't use inui logic but you use it in the same sentence, interesting.

According to your logic
Kage beat Mango : Mango is better

Javi beats PP once: Javi is better

So, you either have a bias towards Javi, or you don't even follow your own logic.


EDIT: JPOBS' list is legit stuff. Strong Bad's list was pretty good too.

EDIT2: I just realized my post is stupid, lol. Cause we have more data of Kage Vs Mango than what we have of Javi vs PP. But I think my post is still relevant in some way.

 

[Bing]

This why I mentioned earlier that Leffen hates the EC. Its a racism thing!

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So leffen i am curious can we see your list

 

[Bing]

He doesnt make lists, we've learned this in other threads, He picks apart everyone elses craft and thoughts, but never throws out his own.

 

[-ACE-]

Hey guys, m2k ***** leffen in crews like he was just another mediocre fox. Now, if that was the only match you 2 played, wouldn't we have to conclude that you are nowhere near m2k's level (when in reality you at least have a chance at beating him)? Once match, one set, hardly means anything. A loss is a loss, but a single loss means very little. Common sense.

 

[leffen]

seriously, I hope you're trolling Erayz. Inui logic would be if I claimed that M2K beating shroomed means that he is better than PP because PP lost to shroomed. Mango lost once, but before that Mango has always outplaced him and Mango was much more dominant at the time then PP has ever been. Mango could very possibly be weak against ganon, but PP definitely isn't weak against fox. The situation is VERY VERY different.

Javi has only beat PP and he has only outplaced him. 100% win. Mango had won MUCH more tournaments than Kage had and he frequently outplaced Kage. Since then Mango has clearly proven that he is better anyway, which PP has not. Circumstances do matter, the world isn't black and white. Hopefully you're just a troll and will fortfeit this terrible argument.

@Bing: I do often make lists lol. have you not read the ****storm I've made with my previous top player lists /tier lists? I just think putting out a new one all the time is stupid. But since you ask: Who I think will place the highest next big national (not the same as current skill levels)


1. Armada
2. Hbox (score compared to Mango is a tie, but mango is inactive atm)
3. Mango
4. PP (yes, I do think that PP will win the next time they face because I think he'll improve faster than Javi due to more effort+ tournaments and he will probably study Javi more. However, Javi should be seeded above PP 100% because the results are clearly in Javi's favor)
5. Javi
6. M2K
7. Shroomed.
8. Kirbykaze
9. Wobbles
10. Lovage.
I know ppl will rage at me leaving out Hax "out of hate" but its more the fact that he doesn't practice atm and I think he'd placed way lower @ Apex if M2K wouldn't have fortfeit. please give a good explanation if you disagree

 

[Chroma]

Variance in matchup skill/comfort really makes me question whether definitive lists can be made. Additionally, I don't think it's meaningful to cut the list off at 10. There seems to be a good-sized mass of players that can cycle around the bottom five spots. Some people currently being slept on include Fly Amanita and Zhu (both extremely capable of taking sets off the top 5 when they play), Westballz/Lovage/MacD/VanZ, Wobbles eternally, etc. etc. etc.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

U know i have been thinking that this thread is asking who the top players of 2012 r, does this mean if i think there is a player who is going to make a big move into the top 10 they would be valid on a list in this thread. (Not that i have any players like that in mind lol)

 

[Geenareeno]

I agree with Leffen's list, and I don't understand why people are *****ing at him. Everyone opposing him seems like a troll tbh. Maybe he has some strange wording. PP lost to Javi but he is better. Javi is only good against fast fallers and has a very different play style, but PP is overall a better player. Mango vs. Kage is different because Mango is Mango and dumb random **** happens with him. I mean, he beat the guy with Link. WITH LINK. He is the better player, this is just one example people are exploiting to try to prove that Leffen's logic is wrong. It's just really dumb. Sorry if this was hard to read.

 

[leffen]

-Ace- : LOL, again, please do mind the circumstances. This world isn't ****ing black and white, you don't even try to think about anything that doesn't help your case do you.

It was 3 v 4 stocks, so not even a whole match of sample (compared to bo3 + your counterpick of choice as in pp/javi)
EVERYONE knew that we had lost crews a LONG time ago. After M2K they still had like 3 players while we had Amsah, and I was the only one fox (out of our very many) that was cool with playing Hbox and then getting counterpicked to M2K on FD... (all others wanted a better matchup lol).

If I thought we could win, I'd have gone Falco (they even said "he'll just go falco[hbox]" and m2k answered with "its cool I like chaingrabbing him on FD) but I wanted to have as much top level exp as possible since crews were doomed anyway so I went Fox (and a few things I adapted for our bracket set with much success ).

In the end, playing 3v4 stocks, in crews,when we're doomed, on his counterpick WITHOUT bans is nowhere near comparable to a real bracket set like Javi/PP and mine vs M2K was very different than the crews (which was very close but involved 2 not so warmed up ppl) .

In the end, the crews still showed that he is better. Even with everything that favored him it still showed that he should be considered better if we don't get any more footage. THAT should be common sense.

PPs match vs Javi was much longer, was about huge sums of money, involved counterpicks and still was a sweep. Yes, 3 tournament wins is more than 1, but that doesn't change the fact that it should be "maybe pp is better" not "maybe javi is as good" like many people think

 

[-ACE-]

funny how i was the one suggesting you might want to mind the circumstances at hand lol

tl;dr sorry

 

[JPOBS]

So with the exception of adding javi and removing hax (adfngdkzfbkwtevafsbr), leffen and i have identical lists.

Not sure if that means I'm dumb, or leffen is actually pretty smart.

 

[Varist]

just came in here to say i usually find Mike Haggar funny but he's been such a raging ****** in this thread i've just got to try and hide the memory of ever giving him props for the rest of my life or i might die of embarrassment.

rarely do i find someone with such a nebulous grasp on logic

 

[leffen]

mikehaggar was funny

and then his post slowly got boring

then I met him irl and he was a totally different guy

and he sucks **** at thrashtalking irl

all he does is talk in a high squeaky voice and say things just aren't related/true enough for it to have any effect
so now its just sad.

 

[tarheeljks]

i disagree it's clear that the results, when taken as a whole, are in javi's favor

Lol, he has played sets outside of Apex >_>
If you consider just apex, then that'd mean that if he was in winners longer and then came 4th he'd have a much bigger lose%

The fact that he lost makes it so that we get more info (that he can beat KDJ, Vanz etc) which should at least partly negate the fact that he lost once in winners. Now, instead, he got to prove that he is infact not weak against peach (vanz), sheik, etc like many others have implied.

As for my "examples". The only one who beat Taj at genesis (and since) is Mango who also beats PP. Mango> PP+Taj > lots of people. Armada/SS logic doesn't really apply since SS did not outplace him and lost to people armada beat.
Same generally goes for Shroomed , he lost to Mango+M2K at G2 and Hbox+Armada. All of these PP are clearly > PP except M2K (who still puts up 3-2 sets!)

Your logic doesn't add up, at all.

his logic looks fine to me. that's how small samples are addressed. the crux of the issue here is that you are using a limited sample to place a player within a very narrow range of skill. of course it is possible that that's his proper placement, but the error margins are going to be wide.

you've said a few things like "javi has never lost to x" where x has beaten pp (taj, shroomed, etc). this can be done to make pp, or lovage for that matter, look better relatively as well. could just as easily say that lovage has beaten hbox, pp has beaten hbox the last few times they've played, while javi has "never" beaten hbox. javi has lost to lovage, don't think pp has

point being that having played more matches, pp (or whoever else), is easier to rank confidently. if it were something like, "there's a case for javi being better than/seeded higher than peepee, i buy it" it would be whatever. many would disagree, but it would be legit

incidentally, having larger sets of matches for players makes it likely that we'll run into them losing to players who we "know" are not as good. when shroomed matches up against pp, he's a dog, but he has a legitimate chance of winning. take two players (A and B) with equal skill levels and have A play 100 sets against players ranging from comparable to worse, and have B play 10 sets. say they play the same 5 guys and A plays each one 20x, B each one 2x. A is obv likely to walk away having lost "more" matches to these weaker players. as such it would be odd to penalize this player for having lost a larger # of games when he played more games. now as you've said, javi's experience clearly isn't limited to his apex appearance, but saying something like "javi has never lost to x, y, or z, who beat pp" is similar to penalizing player A for having played more games (by counting total losses rather than rates) unless you are confident/know that

a) javi basically never loses to anyone else in mexico/elsewhere and mexico has other players on par with the group that has beaten pp (could very well be true, no clue)

b) if he does lose matches sometimes, then overall the people he has lost to are at least as good as the people pp has lost to* (possible, but seems less likely than a) )

and we don't (can't?) know either of these things based on available info. so we are guessing in large part, which is perfectly fine. while i have no doubts that many people favor pp just b/c he is american, standard recognition of sample size and the like make it plenty reasonable to say pp is better than javi despite having lost h2h

 

[lord karn]

I don't understand how people can still think placement matters in tournaments. A tournament is a measure of how well you did in the tournament (obviously), which is a compound of both seeding and who you beat. Because seeding is considered so highly in this model, it does not give previously not-so-good players a chance to even compete in rankings. Clearly, someone on the Lovage/Tope/S2J/whatever level could potentially get bracket ***** at a tournament, facing one of the top players first round. Said player could get 25thish in the tournament only losing to very good players. When you consider only set counts between players, compared to all other player's record, the seeding variable is almost removed (but not quite, as seeding can influence the number of important sets a player can get). It seems to me that what a ranking of players should represent is the predicted placement of players relative to each other, assuming no improvement. This being said, considering placement seems useless to me, unless you want the ranking to include factors other than the players' skill (being measured by how that player did vs. everyone else).

However, this method does not produce perfectly accurate results. The results are only as good as the data in a given period. Whenever there is a gap in data, one cannot assume any results, i.e. no one receives the benefit of the doubt. Thus, the ranking can only be as good as the data (at least objectively speaking). Because of this, the scope of the ranking must be considered. The question of Javi is a moot point. Regardless of how good Mexico's scene is, Javi is the only one that has competed with other players around the world. You could argue that it is unfair that Americans don't travel, and maybe it is, but that's beside the point. We could make a Mexian ranking in the same way, and the only player with data on both sides is Javi. The rest is just incomparable. Maybe they are better, maybe they're not.

My ranking would be something like this (although this is a quick analysis and I might be forgetting some stuff):

1. Armada
2. Mango
3. PP/Hbox (both players have several outliers. If you want assign significant weight to more recent tournaments, then hbox gets the spot. Maybe Mango should be in this tie as well)
4. PP/Hbox
5. M2k
6. KK
7. Wobbles
8. Javi

Beyond that I can't really figure out without thinking about it more in depth.

As far as my opinion goes (considering other factors beyond tournament performance goes):

1. Armada
2. Mango (I think he legitimately lost to Armada, but no one else)
3. PP (He was obviously very ill at genesis 2. Aside from his loss to Javi, I think he's fast approaching Mango's level. Although I may be biased since I'm from NC.)
4. HBox
5. M2k
6. KK
7. Unknown
8. S2J
9/10. Hax/Jman/Zhu

Something like that.

 

[TheGoat]

I don't understand how people can still think placement matters in tournaments.

Anyway, I love these threads. I just hope people can avoid acting like douches, making childish remarks to one another, and just have some fun and intelligent debate.

my list:
1. Armada
2.hungrybox
3. mango
4. dr pp

I think these four are the titans of melee that pretty much sweep everyone below them-and yes, with the glaring exception of javi's triumph over pp.

About this javi vs pp debate-it is too early to draw conclusions. No doubt javi crushed many peoples false illusions, and he did just did incredible. But I think we're going to have to see, at least one, more tournament result of javi duking it out with the other top players we are most familiar with-for various reasons. I think javi does have the potential; I can imagine javi vs armada GF some day.

 

[Wobbles]

It really should be said that your understanding and skill with regards to Melee is NOT the same as your skill as a tournament player. There are a lot of great players who don't handle tournaments well, but outside of them exhibit terrific skills and creativity.

 

[Deleted member]

Why all the S2J love?
He's good, but seeing him get ***** by Lovage at the Big House I would put him way above S2J.

i've beaten oscar in most socal locals recently, not that it really matters me/oscar/westballz are all very close. that tournament is also 50 hundred billion years ago, me and oscar split after we collectively, decisively ***** everyone at big house( save for unknown for me and a under-performing kirbykaze)

i dont deserve the #10 spot atm. i got 5th at manifest barely losing to westballz. im still leveling up/breaking in a new controller though and i think i am gunna try to travel more/ farm socal locals to get the money needed to go

socal is ****ing boring atm theres nothing thrilling about jerkin it and being guaranteed top 2. its when you are getting outclassed/***** that the game becomes fun


i'd say i am safely in a group of very strong players where our levels are extremely close, its tough to say i'm decisively better than most of them esp concerning my recent results need to step it up and have a good championship mindset, work out everyday, meditate in between matches but i am a lazy **** idk

 

[foshio]

I think it is fair to be skeptical of Javi. Think about Amsah the first time he played in NA. He Dominated. He then sharply fell off the map. One tourni is not enough to judge. It is fair to say Javi is great (one of my favorites). But until he does more tourni's it is very hard to say. Also why dont any americans go down to mexico and play?? Vacation, play smash, get kidnapped... it would be interesting to see how one of USA's top pros did down there.

 

[ajp_anton]

Javi has only beat PP and he has only outplaced him. 100% win. Mango had won MUCH more tournaments than Kage had and he frequently outplaced Kage.

100% win doesn't mean much when it's just one win. Statistics and probabilities.

The top6 of your list is identical to mine though. I just think skill = how I think people will score, not sure how you think they can be different.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ryobeat, it's ok. You couldn't have known what this would turn into.

 

[V3ctorMan]

You all should've seen my list.. it was like top 10 low tier players ^^

Spoiler

Since we all know top 10 is TECHNICALLY top 10 players that use the worst characters..

/troll <3


so uhhhhh

then i realized this thread was serious..

I just wanted to calm the storm, or help try..

<3

with some laughs.. ^^

 

[Shroomed]

So I'm 6-7?

Yay! Just wait until I get really good with Marth guys.

I haven't seriously trained my Doc in a while, but I think I'm going to exclusively start playing them, even in friendlies. Level up time. I can't stop playing this game until I'm in Grand Finals of a national.

 

[V3ctorMan]

You have to solve your Yoshi problem first that you have shroomed..

<3

J/k i'll get you next time..^^

btw please don't stop playing Doc.. I'll like

cry.....










alot...

 

[TheLake]

<3 vectormans roy

<3 shroomeds marth

they should team

black power

 

[V3ctorMan]

^OMG

I'd LOVE, omg that'd be amazing to team with shroomed... I'd be sooo honored.. haha

Hopefully he deems me worthy.

<3 shroomed <3

 

[Armada]

Shroomed: Your last nationals (Genesis2/Apex) prove you are up there. Really good scores overall and 3 out of 4 people you have lost to at those tourmnament was playing in GF in the end. Next to Wobbles you are the most underrated smasher in the community.

About the Javi situation: Javi deserve to be seeded as number 4 if all the people above him in the result list shows up. Even if we don't have much information about Javi in US tournament he still proved himself to be hella good. I know a lot of people take up Amsahs poor preformence at Apex and trying to punish Javi becasue of that. But not everyone that is coming back to the states are doing worse. Remen for example placed 9th second time in the states and he did beat people like chu/Kirbykaze and almost beat Axe aswell (if I remember correctly).

Like Leffen said people put be below m2k for example even after pound 4. Being better then someone is really hard to judge based on one tournament so Im not jumping to conclusions now and saying Javi is better than PP. I think PP is a better player over but Javi SHOULD have better seedning at the next tournament though. It feels kinda wrong when it is impossible to have better seedning then the best Americans after one shot when he was the one that was traveling.

This maybe sounds kinda weird but those examples when someone place really well in USA (for exampel) need to be treated diffrently.

 

[Mahie]

If we're talking about 2012, I think Westballz will go far this year, really far. Really been impressed by his progress the past few months, probably my favourite Falco to watch.

 

[-ACE-]

Karn those are 2 good lists you had there. About the mango thing, every loss is legitimate, it just sucks he was CC'ing every dsmash lol, he never, ever does that. I'd rather see mango and armada play, and neither of them make any major mistakes, and one of them just gets outplayed (be it armada or mango).

Wobbles brought up a very good point. If you're talking about who is the better tournament player, obviously placings are where it's at. If you don't think so, blame the way brackets are set up. If you are trying to generate a list of the top 10, as in, "most skilled", the list will always involve opinion and most likely some inui logic lol.

 

[Armada]

What is a major misstakes?
This game is based on misstakes and a lot of those "major misstakes" are based on one playing getting advantage because of a misstake. If you can't predict everything some of this misstakes will happens in every set. It is way easier to see those kind of misstakes from Fox/Falco cause they are completly different chars then Peach/Puff. I think that is one of the reasons why people have a really hard time to see if me/Hbox play bad cause they can't see it. And I think that is why people every single time players like Mango loss they are not playing good.

The set you rather see will never happen =/

 

[ajp_anton]

I think that is one of the reasons why people have a really hard time to see if me/Hbox play bad cause they can't see it.

Spoiler

Taken out of context = win.

 

[Deleted member]

no real order

armada
javi
pp
m2k
mango
shroomed
hbox

there are no other tier 1 players right now IMO. KK is the closest.

 

[-ACE-]

What is a major misstakes?
This game is based on misstakes and a lot of those "major misstakes" are based on one playing getting advantage because of a misstake. If you can't predict everything some of this misstakes will happens in every set. It is way easier to see those kind of misstakes from Fox/Falco cause they are completly different chars then Peach/Puff. I think that is one of the reasons why people have a really hard time to see if me/Hbox play bad cause they can't see it. And I think that is why people every single time players like Mango loss they are not playing good.

The set you rather see will never happen =/

Not discrediting your win, #1. I'm just saying, it would suck if mango beat you if you messed up a bunch of stuff you normally don't. Way less hype.

umbreon, i think you're giving javi and shroomed SLIGHTLY too much credit if consider all those in the same tier. Placing javi anywhere is tough without more data. I would like to see shroomed start ****** everyone with marth though.