Who are the Top 10 Players of 2012?

[leffen]

I'm just gonna quote HMW : "You don't get that good by playing bad people" Javi doesn't 4 stock his region... Tuga plays evenish against Javi and they look very very solid in their vids. Dominating a long time active region is still a VERY VERY good sign regardless if you don't know how it compares to the US

"Did you see how Mango played against Taj?" Omfg kill me now you biased turd. Yeah maybe he played worse, but at the same time we can't really say that Taj simply played bad/sucks vs fox (which ppl knew beforehand, and Mangos falco annihilates every damn Marth but Taj.

and Yes, Taj is probably worse than PP. The point is that PPs loss (+ getting largely outplaced) to Taj should mean much more than Lovage's 1-1 against Javi

"Also, Dr. PP did beat Mango at WGF" While it is true, keep in mind that Mango played Falcon and his falco won 2-1 (with 2 of those being PPs counterpicks!) >_> after that PP has has lost by a huge margin the last 4 tournaments

The point is, that Javi should be considered better by default, and you should argue for the possibility that PP is better, NOT the other way around!
And Javi should most definitely be seeded higher than PP (unless PP beats Mango/Armada etc)

@Kage: ...no offense to anyone but how is that different from most other regionals where no other top 5 attends?

 

[Divinokage]

But then PP just won a tournament yesterday in WC, gg. How has no one mentioned that?

 

[The Good Doctor]

I'm just gonna quote HMW : "You don't get that good by playing bad people" Javi doesn't 4 stock his region... Tuga plays evenish against Javi and they look very very solid in their vids. Dominating a long time active region is still a VERY VERY good sign regardless if you don't know how it compares to the US

"Did you see how Mango played against Taj?" Omfg kill me now you biased turd. Yeah maybe he played worse, but at the same time we can't really say that Taj simply played bad/sucks vs fox (which ppl knew beforehand, and Mangos falco annihilates every damn Marth but Taj.

and Yes, Taj is probably worse than PP. The point is that PPs loss (+ getting largely outplaced) to Taj should mean much more than Lovage's 1-1 against Javi

"Also, Dr. PP did beat Mango at WGF" While it is true, keep in mind that Mango played Falcon and his falco won 2-1 (with 2 of those being PPs counterpicks!) >_> after that PP has has lost by a huge margin the last 4 tournaments

So using your own main argument against you isn't ok?
I'm starting to understand you.

 

[leffen]

What do you mean? What is my main argument and how is it not usable?

 

[JPOBS]

1. Armada - Clearly the best in the world right now. No argument.

2. Hungrybox - Controversial second, but IDGAF. All evidence indicates that he's better than mango right now. He's still plays this game and is still improving, and finally got over the hump by beating mango at Apex 2012. Deserves second for the moment.

3. Mango - Obvious choice.

4. Dr. Pee Pee - Another obvious choice. He can compete with the top 3 on any given day, and may beat any of them next time. For now though, recent results indicate he tops out at 4th for the moment.

5. Mew2king - Clearly worst than everyone in top 4, clearly better than everyone else. *shrug*

6. Shroomed - Dr. Midnight deserves some love. Consistently high placings, dominates his region, capable of major upsets, and probably the favorite vs anyone else on the list.

7. Hax$ - Hasn't placed lower than 13th in like 5 years (and even then rarely), and has peaked as high as 5th. One could argue that certain other players have higher absolute maximum peaks, but they all often under perform randomly. For the purposes of being a "top player", consistent greatness > sporadic eliteness with bouts of meh. Hax falls into the former.

8. Kirbykaze - His top performance is probably higher than anyone else outside the top 5 too be honest. He has beaten Dr. PeePee and Hungrybox in tourny, and has shown to atleast go almost dead even with M2k. Deserving of 8th imo.

9. Lovage - Relatively new to the "top player" discussion. But recent strong performances at Apex 2012 and Genesis 2, won Big House, and 2nd at NWM. There are probably some other people you could argue for this spot, but everyone I can think of Lovage has either beaten directly or outplaced in tourny recently.

10. Wobbles - Any host of players could make an argument for this spot, but I'm giving it to wobbles because he deserves the recognition. Consistent top 10 players at nationals/internationals attended, shown capable of beating players in that upper echelon, destroys crews. Haters gonna hate.

edit: Javi not considered due to lack of data.

 

[The Good Doctor]

What do you mean? What is my main argument and how is it not usable?

People keep citing how your evidence can be disputed using the same logic you yourself are using like.

A beat B at one tournament.

But, you are just saying

Lol, doesn't count.

 

[commonyoshi]

Its just bad logic imho

Leffen shouldn't be talking about bad logic in this conversation, lol.

 

[JPOBS]

I love how no one in this thread has the cajones to put hbox above mango lol

@JPOBS
Lovage wrecked that entire tournament, so how exactly am I stupid?

cuz you're saying people shouldn't like s2j cuz he lost one tournament to lovage. Unless you're trying to say that lovage deserves more cred, which i agree with, but the way you worded it is pretty idiotic.

 

[ajp_anton]

Also, I think its VERY unfair to let an early loss impact his otherwise good placing.You are essentially increasing the effect such a loss should have for your arguments favor.

I honestly do not see where you are coming from AJP. Its just bad logic imho

My argument is the result of the effect, not the other way around =). I'm not saying Javi is worse just because he lost a set against a player he later dominated. I'm saying that since there's so little data, even a small loss can completely screw up the expectations one has. The others you mention have already played each other so much that we know where they stand, and a loss here or there doesn't really change much.
If Javi had won against Armada in a set but losing horribly later, that would obviously very quickly change our perception of him in the other direction instead of now with Lovage, while Armada's long record of wins would still keep him solidly above everyone else.

 

[Strong Badam]

These threads are always okayish until MIKEHAGGAR (You aren't even a good player. Stop being such a prick online. Europe is amazing) starts posting and people take the bait. Not even Leffen's posts are all that bad, although his writing style can be annoying sometimes.

Anyway, my list is something like this:

1. Armada - You're stupid if you don't put him first.
2-4 is some order of Hbox, Mango, PP
5-10 could be several players. M2k seems to lack consistency lately, I don't think he has earned a #5 or higher spot for sure. KirbyKaze has had several high placings and tournament wins over exceptional players for 2+ years. Wobbles always gets like 9th or 7th. S2J and Hax are both extremely consistent high placers. Shroomed is ****ing amazing. Zhu is still really good. Lovage is really good. MacD consistently gets 9th? Axe is really good. Javi's performance at APEX could not have been a fluke, but I'm not sure he's consistent enough against floaties to be a top 10 contender. His ability to adapt was really impressive though.

 

[Bing]

I love Strong Bads list... Didnt actually give direct placing because for certain spots its too difficult to say player a is better than player b.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

I'm just gonna quote HMW : "You don't get that good by playing bad people" Javi doesn't 4 stock his region... Tuga plays evenish against Javi and they look very very solid in their vids. Dominating a long time active region is still a VERY VERY good sign regardless if you don't know how it compares to the US

Yes it is a very good sign. That's been established many times in the thread. L2 comprehend. As we will repeatedly mention, how does Tuga fair relative to US players? how does EX fair? We don't know! We do know, more about Dr. PP's results though and have more of a higher sample size to get a more conclusive result.

"Did you see how Mango played against Taj?" Omfg kill me now you biased turd. Yeah maybe he played worse, but at the same time we can't really say that Taj simply played bad/sucks vs fox (which ppl knew beforehand, and Mangos falco annihilates every damn Marth but Taj.and Yes, Taj is probably worse than PP. The point is that PPs loss (+ getting largely outplaced) to Taj should mean much more than Lovage's 1-1 against Javi

How is my initial statement biased? If you're going to be subjective like in your very first paragraph in regards to Tuga vs. Javi, why can't I be with Mango vs Taj in WF? Oh wait, biases only work one way, I forgot.

I could also argue, that Mango's revenge win on Taj should have a higher basis, just as you pinpointed that Javi's revenge win on Lovage. Point taken on the relativity of Lovage's win and Taj's win.

"Also, Dr. PP did beat Mango at WGF" While it is true, keep in mind that Mango played Falcon and his falco won 2-1 (with 2 of those being PPs counterpicks!) >_> after that PP has has lost by a huge margin the last 4 tournaments

I'm still curious to see what these "last 4 tournaments" were. Besides that, my point is that Dr. PP and Taj both beat a sub optimal Mango, which makes Taj's and Dr. PP's victories over Mangoa mute point

The point is, that Javi should be considered better by default, and you should argue for the possibility that PP is better, NOT the other way around!
And Javi should most definitely be seeded higher than PP (unless PP beats Mango/Armada etc)

Yay, let's jump to more definitive opinions. (rolls eyes...)

@Kage: ...no offense to anyone but how is that different from most other regionals where no other top 5 attends?

 

[leffen]

My argument is the result of the effect, not the other way around =).
I'm not saying Javi is worse just because he lost a set against a player he later dominated. I'm saying that since there's so little data, even a small loss can completely screw up the expectations one has. The others you mention have already played each other so much that we know where they stand, and a loss here or there doesn't really change much.

A small loss (that he later beat!) should not affect the placing more than it already does! If he placed worse in pools and had to play more players but came the same you wouldnt argue for it...

". The others you mention have already played each other so much that we know where they stand, and a loss here or there doesn't really change much." When has Taj lost to PP when using Marth? Never. When has Axe ever lost to PP? Never!
When has Armada beat Silent Spectre? Never!


You just seem to not know anything about PPs / the others losses and just because you saw Javi go 1-1 you use that >_>


"If Javi had won against Armada in a set but losing horribly later, that would obviously very quickly change our perception of him in the other direction instead of now with Lovage, while Armada's long record of wins would still keep him solidly above everyone else."

I dont really understand this. Javi going 1-1 should obviously put him higher than he is now, but if Armada still places higher in the end then he should gain more "points" from that tournament. Armada shouldnt get less "points" just because he lost in Winners - the fact that he has to fight more people in losers more than does it as for punishment for just losing once in a double elimination, ESPECIALLY, when he like in Javi's case later beat the one he lost to solidly.

You are more or less thinking of double elimination like round robin (where a game lost or going even brings your whole score down. This would be viable if it wasn't for the fact that you need to play more people in losers and that you are disadvantaged in GF

Oh, and even if you do it like round robin I dont get how you can so heavily overvalue a even (with Javi winning the latter) compared to a clean loss to many by PP which you say "means nothing because they have played a lot before" which they have NOT!

 

[Bing]

I figured it out... Leffen hates Players from the East Coast(USA EC)

Damn Im good.

 

[Wobbles]

PP had some super-virus-baby between bird flu and the umbrella virus for most of G2. I dislike looking at that event as representative of very much. Unless you consider that he got top 10 at it anyhow, which is pretty nuts.

I am horrendously underrated. I'm rather inconsistent and my play is heavily affected by my mood, how much I've eaten, what the humidity is like and whether my mommy hugged me that day or not, but I still have the capacity to style on nearly every human in the world. I'm tired of playing people and after a few games getting responses like, "wow I didn't know you actually were good." Most large tournaments I go to, I am eliminated by only the top 5. I typically ace my pools and beat other high-profile players. Ask any of those high level players whether I'm good or not, and they will usually tell you that I am.

Oh, and I'm ranked 4th on the Elo list. At least until they run another random tournament and I suddenly drop 231 places because the system isn't very good yet. But you should totally take that as a 100% viable and reliable indicator of my skill relative to everybody else.

(in case your Google translator of Sarcasm-English is broken, that last part was a joke)

 

[Bing]

We Love you Wobbles. <3

 

[JPOBS]

I think the biggest problem with including Javi has nothing at all to do with his skill relative to PP. The problem with javi is that, you either put him at 4th, or bust. There's literally no other option.

I'm glad javi beat PP in what is sure to be his best matchup, but i'm hard pressed to think he could stand a chance against M2k. Likewise, KK would give him the run around. And then what about players like shroomed and axe? I'm sure javi is great and all, but his meteoric rise to fame essentially rides alone on the fact that he beat PP. If javi and PP played 1000 matches and javi won every single one, I still wouldn't know where to put him because I'm almost sure he'd get bodied by certain other players.

Even if I could say with confindence that javi > PP, I couldn't feel comfortable puttin him above everyone else based solely on that fact.

 

[leffen]

"Yes it is a very good sign. That's been established many times in the thread. L2 comprehend. As we will repeatedly mention, how does Tuga fair relative to US players? how does EX fair? We don't know! We do know, more about Dr. PP's results though and have more of a higher sample size to get a more conclusive result."

As I said, its a very good sign. I know that we cant DEFINITELY say "mexico is as good as the US" but we can't say definitely say that they aren't either. Which is why I put it like "dominating for 5+ years in an active region must amount to at least a decent amount of skill proof".

This was also aimed largely at AJP who said implied that there was a lack of proof of Javis skill, where I then replied with how dominating Mexico should not be forgotten...I didn't conclusively put ANYTHING, I didn't say that "him beating tuga is the same as PP beating westballz" etc.

"How is my initial statement biased? If you're going to be subjective like in your very first paragraph in regards to Tuga vs. Javi, why can't I be with Mango vs Taj in WF? Oh wait, biases only work one way, I forgot."
I could also argue, that Mango's revenge win on Taj should have a higher basis, just as you pinpointed that Javi's revenge win on Lovage. Point taken on the relativity of Lovage's win and Taj's win.

The "bias" is mostly the **** about "mango is god mango win if he play good hbox sucks hbox neva play bad". While yes, I was subjective about Tuga in some way, you simply said "omg mango played bad" which is not really comparable imho. Yes, I realize that Taj should get less "points" from the tournament than Mango (his 2nd vs 3rd place speaks for this alone, which is what AJP doesn't value at all D
I never contested this point, loser bracket is what really matters because you don't get a second chance.
However, the fact that Taj outplaced and beat PP stands, and since they havent fought since its even more important than Javi's loss.

I'm still curious to see what these "last 4 tournaments" were. Besides that, my point is that Dr. PP and Taj both beat a sub optimal Mango, which makes Taj's and Dr. PP's victories over Mango a mute point

Worded it a bit weirdly, when I ment "lost" I meant outplaced (since this was used as the standard for Javi etc). I also ment to type 3... stupid typo lol. Anyway; Genesis 2, Rom4, Apex2012 ... every tournament they've both attended.

How do we know that Taj vs Mango was "sub optimal"? He has NEVER used fox vs Marth before, and no marth has ever beaten Mango's falco (which he himself, claims to be his most solid character).
Compare this to using his Falcon (which he himself claims is his 100% sandbag character) and then picking falco only by HugS request (iirc) when he was down 2-0 and coming from losers bracket and this was at a smaller tournament that he hadn't practiced for (compared to G2).

I do not view those wins the same frankly...


@Bing: I do not hate all players from the EC lol. Besides, doesn't PP come from Texas lmao.

@jbops: I don't really agree - I think Javi should be a clear 5th if he isn' t ranked over PP. M2K has too bad of a score against any of the top players compared to Javi who beat PP to ever be ranked over him tbh *and placed higher than M2K at their only event*

Anyways, I think people who travel a long way to the tournament should at least win tie breakers >_>

 

[Warhawk]

I agree with JPOBS. I'm hesitant to rank Javi at all because of lack of information that I can use to try and determine relative to other players where he should stand. He very well could be a top 5 player in the world but there's such a lack of knowledge of him compared to both US and European players to make an accurate determination of where he stands.

 

[Bing]

@Bing: I do not hate all players from the EC lol. Besides, doesn't PP come from Texas lmao.

He's from North Carolina, other side of the continent...

 

[Ryobeat]

Im just a young, upcoming some what decent smash player who wanted a thread, i didnt think the entire earth would so into O_O sorry if i caused fights, breakups, and flipped tables ._.

 

[Bing]

Im just a young, upcoming some what decent smash player who wanted a thread, i didnt think the entire earth would so into O_O sorry if i caused fights, breakups, and flipped tables ._.

A New person starts one of these every couple of months, so dont worry about it. We all secretly love and embrace each others strengths and weaknesses.

 

[leffen]

@Wobbles: The same thing could be said about apex because of no warm up time. We also don't know anything about Javi, he could very well have been sick/hungover and we wouldn't know.

Also, being healthy and having a fit body is something that is should not be forgotten. Inconsistency, for whatever reason, should automatically be negative and not forgotten. If someone is sick a lot, then that should factor in when ranking people. The fact that Broly has less usable hands which leads worse technical skill affects him - the fact that PP may have a bad immune system should likewise be accounted.
If he really didn't want the results to be counted then he could've simply not entered.

Honestly I think its funny that people talk about being sick" and PP like would've been ranked higher better if it didn't exist - have you guys forgot about Hbox's at Pound 5? He was, imo, as if not worse than PP was at Genesis2, and he still placed 3rd, PP BARELY won 3-2 against him and he had been throwing up all day ffs.

@Warhawk- I know he lives there, but I'm pretty sure that he actually comes from texas.

 

[danieljosebatista]

1. Armada - Clearly the best in the world right now. No argument.

2. Hungrybox - Controversial second, but IDGAF. All evidence indicates that he's better than mango right now. He's still plays this game and is still improving, and finally got over the hump by beating mango at Apex 2012. Deserves second for the moment.

3. Mango - Obvious choice.

4. Dr. Pee Pee - Another obvious choice. He can compete with the top 3 on any given day, and may beat any of them next time. For now though, recent results indicate he tops out at 4th for the moment.

5. Mew2king - Clearly worst than everyone in top 4, clearly better than everyone else. *shrug*

6. Shroomed - Dr. Midnight deserves some love. Consistently high placings, dominates his region, capable of major upsets, and probably the favorite vs anyone else on the list.

7. Hax$ - Hasn't placed lower than 13th in like 5 years (and even then rarely), and has peaked as high as 5th. One could argue that certain other players have higher absolute maximum peaks, but they all often under perform randomly. For the purposes of being a "top player", consistent greatness > sporadic eliteness with bouts of meh. Hax falls into the former.

8. Kirbykaze - His top performance is probably higher than anyone else outside the top 5 too be honest. He has beaten Dr. PeePee and Hungrybox in tourny, and has shown to atleast go almost dead even with M2k. Deserving of 8th imo.

9. Lovage - Relatively new to the "top player" discussion. But recent strong performances at Apex 2012 and Genesis 2, won Big House, and 2nd at NWM. There are probably some other people you could argue for this spot, but everyone I can think of Lovage has either beaten directly or outplaced in tourny recently.

10. Wobbles - Any host of players could make an argument for this spot, but I'm giving it to wobbles because he deserves the recognition. Consistent top 10 players at nationals/internationals attended, shown capable of beating players in that upper echelon, destroys crews. Haters gonna hate.

edit: Javi not considered due to lack of data.

Legit. Probably the best list I've seen

 

[Bing]

Couldnt get my name right Leffen... you make me sad

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

Here's another thought provoking question.

Does M2K deserve to be #5/#6 anymore?

He did well at G2, but clearly has many emotional issues to overcome. Yes, this is a john, but mental stability is still a huge factor in tournaments. His documented struggles with ICs, Jiggs, etc... and recent inconsistent placings have made me wonder if he's, without a doubt, top 5 anymore.

 

[ajp_anton]

leffen:
I "overvalue" going even with Lovage because it's such a large % of the total number of sets he played.
Armada > lots of people > SS. Same goes for your other examples. There's just so much data from these players that it's impossible to put SS above Armada, because that would make him the best in the world.
I'm not thinking round-robin. I'm not thinking Apex placements at all. Obviously Javi got far in this tournament, I can see that. I'm talking about what this thread is about, actual skill.
We simply don't know, or even have enough information for an accurate prediction, of Javi's next tournament. He could place 17th or 2nd, we don't know. What we're doing here is discussing our opinions without pretty much any data whatsoever to back anything up, and I find it rather pointless, so I'll just go to sleep and you can ask me in person tomorrow if you still feel like it =).

 

[Bing]

Here's another thought provoking question.

Does M2K deserve to be #5/#6 anymore?

He did well at G2, but clearly has many emotional issues to overcome. Yes, this is a john, but mental stability is still a huge factor in tournaments. His documented struggles with ICs, Jiggs, etc... and recent inconsistent placings have made me wonder if he's, without a doubt, top 5 anymore.

Thats Why I gave M2K two placings on my list, even emo M2K is still top 10, barely, but legit M2K is 5th, I'd say.

 

[leffen]

leffen:
I "overvalue" going even with Lovage because it's such a large % of the total number of sets he played.
Armada > lots of people > SS. Same goes for your other examples. There's just so much data from these players that it's impossible to put SS above Armada, because that would make him the best in the world.
I'm not thinking round-robin. I'm not thinking Apex placements at all. Obviously Javi got far in this tournament, I can see that. I'm talking about what this thread is about, actual skill.
We simply don't know, or even have enough information for an accurate prediction, of Javi's next tournament. He could place 17th or 2nd, we don't know. What we're doing here is discussing our opinions without pretty much any data whatsoever to back anything up, and I find it rather pointless, so I'll just go to sleep and you can ask me in person tomorrow if you still feel like it =).

Lol, he has played sets outside of Apex >_>
If you consider just apex, then that'd mean that if he was in winners longer and then came 4th he'd have a much bigger lose%

The fact that he lost makes it so that we get more info (that he can beat KDJ, Vanz etc) which should at least partly negate the fact that he lost once in winners. Now, instead, he got to prove that he is infact not weak against peach (vanz), sheik, etc like many others have implied.

As for my "examples". The only one who beat Taj at genesis (and since) is Mango who also beats PP. Mango> PP+Taj > lots of people. Armada/SS logic doesn't really apply since SS did not outplace him and lost to people armada beat.
Same generally goes for Shroomed , he lost to Mango+M2K at G2 and Hbox+Armada. All of these PP are clearly > PP except M2K (who still puts up 3-2 sets!)

Your logic doesn't add up, at all.

 

[JPOBS]

Here's another thought provoking question.

Does M2K deserve to be #5/#6 anymore?

He did well at G2, but clearly has many emotional issues to overcome. Yes, this is a john, but mental stability is still a huge factor in tournaments. His documented struggles with ICs, Jiggs, etc... and recent inconsistent placings have made me wonder if he's, without a doubt, top 5 anymore.

Sure. What's the argument against putting him at 5th? The burden of proof is on someone to supplant him. Make an argument for why anyone except M2k deserves 5th and I'm all ears.

As far as I can tell though, barring blatant forfeits, you have to go back to like, pre-mlg era to find a tournament where m2k didn't place 5th or higher.

I mean, its not just a matter of "oh m2k forfeited apex 2012 and has problem matchups, so he should be moved down". Who are you honestly gonna put there instead?

 

[leffen]

Ummmm, Javi or PP?


Being mentally weak is not a valid john. That is just one of your many aspects of smash, you have to learn it.

 

[-ACE-]

leffen if you're going to talk about pp losing to shroomed you might as well talk about kage beating mango rofl, you have no idea of the circumstances and that was a while back. you act like you and javi are training partners.

 

[leffen]

A loss is still a loss, bro.

and how do I act like I'm his training partner - I'm just not assuming that everything is in USA's favor and I give clear reasoning to why I don't

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah so at one point kage was better than mango. I get your ideology now.

carry on.

 

[leffen]

No, but Mango losing should still work against him just as PP's
I don't use inui logic like you imply, but a loss is still a loss.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Leffen is either the best troll I've ever seen or he completely lacks reading comprehension.

@Jpobs
I didn't imply people shouldn't respect/like S2J, I'm just very surprised so many people had him in their "10" while Lovage was either below or not on the list at all.

 

[Bing]

Clearly its because s2j plays Falcon. The End.

 

[leffen]

Leffen is either the best troll I've ever seen or he completely lacks reading comprehension.

I'm glad that you, like always, don't understand snuff. Just like in the Natural talent thread lol

 

[JPOBS]

Leffen is either the best troll I've ever seen or he completely lacks reading comprehension.

Leffen's is smashboard's version of Poe's Law.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Leffen's is smashboard's version of Poe's Law.

Lmao, yeah.