Who are the Top 10 Players of 2012?

[TheLake]

Axe, shroomed, m2k have beaten dr.pp

do they deserve to be higher than him?

why is it retarted to assume that one set win out ways better over all performances?

 

[Habefiet]

inui logic is insignificant and has never had any meaning or weight in any argument. now go **** yourself.

While by your logic, Taj is better than Mango and Silentspectre is better than Armada and so on.

Also I think from now on I'll call Europeans Poopopeans, Canadians Lameadians, and Mexicans Dumbicans, in a desperate attempt to manage to sound as stupid as anyone using the word Flopmerican. Gotta make a name for myself somehow.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Axe, shroomed, m2k have beaten dr.pp

do they deserve to be higher than him?

why is it retarted to assume that one set win out ways better over all performances?

yes but pp has beaten all of those people several times since then and outplaced them in many many tournaments. pp has not done the same with javi. in the one tournament both attended, javi both beat and outplaced pp.
if there where other sets or tournaments to go by where pp had beaten javi it would be a very different story, but there are not.

While by your logic, Taj is better than Mango and Silentspectre is better than Armada and so on.

Also I think from now on I'll call Europeans Poopopeans, Canadians Lameadians, and Mexicans Dumbicans, in a desperate attempt to manage to sound as stupid as anyone using the word Flopmerican. Gotta make a name for myself somehow.

no, you misunderstood my argument because you are mentally ********.

 

[Habefiet]

yes but pp has beaten all of those people several times since then and outplaced them in many many tournaments. pp has not done the same with javi. in the one tournament both attended, javi both beat and outplaced pp.
javis one win wouldn't weigh any more if there where other sets or tournaments to go by, but there are not.

no, you misunderstood my argument because you are mentally ********.

You Poopopeans sure do toss rude words around. No, this isn't a sweeping generalization, what are you talking about?

The problem I have with putting Javi above PP is that that involves putting him above people that PP consistently beats. Javi has gone even with Lovage, so why should I put Javi above Lovage?

 

[Divinokage]

I appreciate being considered Top 10 but I'm definitely not. I'd say more top 20-30.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

You Poopopeans sure do toss rude words around. No, this isn't a sweeping generalization, what are you talking about?

The problem I have with putting Javi above PP is that that involves putting him above people that PP consistently beats. Javi has gone even with Lovage, so why should I put Javi above Lovage?

because he placed further and beat people lovage wouldn't beat, for example. herpaderp.

 

[-ACE-]

inui logic is insignificant and has never had any meaning or weight in any argument. now go **** yourself.

How ironic.

1 armada
2 mango
3 hbox
4 PP
5 m2k
6 javi
7 shroomed
8 KK
9 hax
10 s2j

I guess. idk.

 

[Habefiet]

because he placed further and beat people lovage wouldn't beat, for example. herpaderp.

Isn't that a variant of the logic you've already discounted? You've said that PP beating someone that Javi goes even with doesn't matter. But Javi beating people that Lovage doesn't somehow does matter?

Elaboration on your logic here would be appreciated because as far as I can tell you're saying that some RPS situations are acceptable to use and some aren't. IDK, maybe I'm just mad tired. /johns

Honestly we know so little about Javi's potential performance against other world players that I was hesitant to include him at all. Losing to Lovage but beating PP is a confusing result. I think we just disagree on how much evidence is needed.

Poopopean.

 

[Bing]

1.Armada
2.Mango
3.Hbox
4.Dr.PP
5.M2K(Not emoing)/Shroomed
6.Shroomed(If M2K is not emoing)
7.KirbyKaze
8.Javi
9.M2K(emoing)/Hax/s2j/Lovage
10.Not gunna both listing players, theres like 20 that could all possibly fit here.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Why all the S2J love?
He's good, but seeing him get ***** by Lovage at the Big House I would put him way above S2J.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Isn't that a variant of the logic you've already discounted? You've said that PP beating someone that Javi goes even with doesn't matter. But Javi beating people that Lovage doesn't somehow does matter?

Elaboration on your logic here would be appreciated because as far as I can tell you're saying that some RPS situations are acceptable to use and some aren't. IDK, maybe I'm just mad tired. /johns

Honestly we know so little about Javi's potential performance against other world players that I was hesitant to include him at all. Losing to Lovage but beating PP is a confusing result. I think we just disagree on how much evidence is needed.

Poopopean.

except that i actually take the overall result into account. and also the result between lovage/javi is 1-1, so it would be a good idea to base their overall skill on the placing.
but with pp vs javi, javi outplaced AND beat pp. there is no argument.

 

[Bing]

s2j is really legit, but I still wouldnt put him top 5.

Dont get me wrong also, I love Lovage(haha) but I still wouldnt be him much higher because of his inconsistency(aka being a Fox main). Perfect Example, at NWM, he lost to Chip(like first round or something like that. Then got 2nd place overall. Weird, but still legit

 

[The Good Doctor]

except that i actually take the overall result into account. and also the result between lovage/javi is 1-1, so it would be a good idea to base their overall skill on the placing.
but with pp vs javi, javi outplaced AND beat pp. there is no argument.

How are you not banned?
You by far are the worst troll I've ever encountered.

 

[dcx1287]

The lack of respect for Wobbles is absolutely astounding.

He's rank ***ing 4 on ssbpd.com's smash ELO rating, only under Armada, Mango, and Hbox (pretty good company), and this isn't enough for him to sniff top 10?

A lot of people seem to have Javi on their lists (rather high as well) and are completely ignoring Wobbles. Let's compare their smash histories for a second.

Javi: http://ssbpd.com/player/1975?noRewrite=true
Wobbles: http://ssbpd.com/player/Wobbles

Javi's only major U.S. tournament thus far has been Apex. He lost to two really good players (Hbox/Lovage) and beat one arguably top 5 player (Dr. PP)

If we looked at nothing else but Wobbles' performance at APEX, you'd see a similar pattern - Wobbles lost to two really good players (Hbox, Dr. PP) and beat one arguably top 5 player (Mew2King).

And yet, Wobbles has been doing it for more consistently and for a much longer time span than Javi.

You guys have to stop catapulting players into a top 10 ranking just because of one good tournament performance.

I'm not saying Wobbles is necessarily top 10 at this point. I'm just saying you guys need to be consistent. Catapulting Javi (someone ranked him 4th best after a one tournament performance? Really?) into the top 10 after a single tournament but ignoring Wobbles simultaneously makes no sense at all. Stay consistent.

 

[Warhawk]

there is no argument.

Sure there is. There's not really enough information to warrant putting Javi above PP when PP is an established top player who consistently places top 5 and Javi doesn't have that record of consistency against established players to get an understanding of their standing with each other. I also am hesitant to put Javi above PP when Hungrybox beat Javi quite decisively and PP recently has been consistently winning against Hungrybox.

@dcx1287 I completely agree, I can't believe how few people are listing Wobbles as a top 10 player. Especially when a good amount of people are listing Axe as a top 10 player (and don't get me wrong, I love Axe) and I would say Wobbles is definitely better than Axe and consistently beats him pretty soundly.

 

[ajp_anton]

There's too much uncertainty. He can be anything from even with Lovage to above PP. That loss to Lovage kind of limits the possibilities that he's better than PP, so I would still put him below PP. But only if I had to. Like an "expectation value" with a large variance.
I don't really see why we even need a list like this. There's just no way we can make such a list with the slightest confidence.

 

[leffen]

lovage placed lower than Javi, so he should be considered worse. Going by "who beat who" is stupid and you're ******** for thinking so.
I know if you JUST look at it being 1-1, then sure, but Javi beat more people (pp, hax, etc etc) so he "won" the tournament between them.

PP has also lost to Taj, Tope and Shroomed, Axe- which Javi has not lost to either. Your logic suck ballz.

Also, saying "the bigger scene is better" is stupid. America is not #1 in (almost) any esport but has the biggest scene in almost every game.

Just look at Marvel vs Capcom. It's HUGE in America, lots of players try really hard and there are like 100 sponsored players for that game. In Japan, its extremely small and is considered as a joke game. It isnt on arcade (which is the main hub for competitive games in japan) so its very rare that people play it. Their scene is very small.

Yet, Japan is still better...
Then theres SFxT (new game) and SFIVAE where USA, again, has the biggest scene with lots of top players, but isn't even close to the best in those games...
and yeah, this weekend, Infiltration from Korea (which has a extremely small SF scene) came in and DOMINATED the big national (Norcal regionals) in SFxT (placed 2nd in SFIV)...

USA often has many players in the "high" level and they will always do because many of their states are bigger than most countries so if you rank by players who make it to bracket in american tournaments (since america sucks major **** at traveling) and when you add that its rare that they win tournaments with international attendance in any game I find it very hard to accept;

"mexican tournaments don't give anything for javi, but american tournaments [shh about the fact that PP loses many tournaments] help negate PP being outplaced just because PP has more times to prove himself"

What's to say that Javi would not beat Hungrybox the next time? He also hasn't even played Armada and Mango... it is very possible that he could beat them too
Especially, because in PPs case, he has faced these players for 10031031 times and got dominated for a looong while before he started placing decently close to them (still has worse record than Hbox+Mango)...
How can you say that once Javi adjust he'll do like PP and eventually start winning against Hbox and take sets of armada/mango

You really can't, and he should technically have a better chance to take sets of those than PP so I can not justify ranking PP higher.

More importantly, do you guys honestly think PP should be seeded higher than Javi? Sadly, I think I already know you will, just like Armada got seeded lower than M2K in Pound 4 AND Apex...

 

[The Good Doctor]

You know, sometimes players do lose to players of a lesser caliber. It happens.

 

[dcx1287]

There's too much uncertainty. He can be anything from even with Lovage to above PP. That loss to Lovage kind of limits the possibilities that he's better than PP, so I would still put him below PP. But only if I had to. Like an "expectation value" with a large variance.
I don't really see why we even need a list like this. There's just no way we can make such a list with the slightest confidence.

Looking at your join date, this is probably slightly before your time, but we tried to do a Top 25 U.S. Melee Ranking about 6-7 years ago with limited success -

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Smash_Panel_Power_Rankings

There's so much grey area and hand-waving, the process was unbelievably difficult.

 

[Warhawk]

Leffen do you honestly think that Javi is better than PP after one tournament? I'm not saying that Javi couldn't be better than PP, but just that off of only one tournament its hard to justify putting Javi ahead of PP.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Leffen do you honestly think that Javi is better than PP after one tournament? I'm not saying that Javi couldn't be better than PP, but just that off of only one tournament its hard to justify putting Javi ahead of PP.

there is NOTHING to justify putting pp above javi, but there is something to justify putting javi over pp.
herpaderp ppl

 

[Bing]

I think theres too many high level caliber players to narrow it down to 10. Thinking about it reading arguements, I feel reminded that Javi has only taken part in 1 U.S tournament. And being honest, I dont know anything about the Mexican metagame or anything. Just thats theres Javi's and Tuga(yes?).

1.Armada
2.Mango
3.Hbox
4.Dr.PP
5.M2K(Not emoing)/Shroomed
6.Shroomed(If M2K is not emoing)
7.KirbyKaze
8.Wobbles
9.M2K(emoing)/Hax/s2j/Lovage/Axe
10.Too many to post. Javi Goes here.

 

[ajp_anton]

Also, saying "the bigger scene is better" is stupid. America is not #1 in (almost) any esport but has the biggest scene in almost every game.

If this was directed to what I said... I said it's a valid assumption until the two scenes actually meet, not that it's always so. Unless Korea is somehow involved =).

Looking at your join date, this is probably slightly before your time, but we tried to do a Top 25 U.S. Melee Ranking about 6-7 years ago with limited success -

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Smash_Panel_Power_Rankings

There's so much grey area and hand-waving, the process was unbelievably difficult.

I've been playing for a long time, but I've never really looked at other communities that much. Anyway, at that time I'm sure the people in that list played each other a little more than the widely international list we have today.

 

[The Good Doctor]

there is NOTHING to justify putting pp above javi, but there is something to justify putting javi over pp.
herpaderp ppl

 

[leffen]

I do think wobbles is severely underrated - he is clearly on another level than Axe, and ppl rank him so high all the time.

However, I think its very fair that Javi is ranked over Wobbles - to me, its not really any doubt.
Seriously, the only reason Wobbles has more results is because he has went to more tournaments in the us and you guys don't count mexican tournaments ffs.


The argument for Lovage beating him which means he is "limited" is ****ING ********, im sorry AJP.

Armada has lost to SS, so he cant be better than M2K. PP, Hbox and Mango have a ****LOAD of random losses that should "limit" them. Hbox lost to fly, chudat, lucky, plup, KK.
PP has lost to Tope, Taj, Shroomed, Axe. Mango has lost to Cactuar, Eggz, and god knows how many players when people assume that he is "sandbagging".


@Warhawk: Jesus stop with the fkn bias. I can understand doubting that its clear that Javi is better (like Wobbles), but you are accusing me like its radical to think that someone who has 100% win rate is better while outplacing them.

Fk off.

@Bing: Wow. Axe over Javi, you blow my fkn mind.
YOU ARE A TOURNAMENT HOST TOO, jesus fk
At least now I know that you're tournament will have **** seeding lmao



@AJPs answer: I don't even know if its that "valid" to assume the US is better because they have a bigger scene anymore. Every game but melee basically has proven this strategy to be dead wrong and its being proven right again and again for every new game (like SFxT this weekend...)

Any reasonable person can at least should take an objective look at how big the US scene is for everything compared to how they do... the ratio is fkn awful in most games tbh
It clearly points away from "more people=better" in every possible way.

 

[Bing]

@Bing: Wow. Axe over Javi, you blow my fkn mind.
YOU ARE A TOURNAMENT HOST TOO, jesus fk
At least now I know that you're tournament will have **** seeding lmao

Right, so based on the fact, that they are both featured in a top 10, this = bad seeding.

Honestly, Leffen, you can be so dumb. I respect you as a player, but honestly.

We are entilted to an opinion, and yes, I went with this because again a) I dont know much about Javi when I do more about Axe b) Being Biased because I love Axe.

When it comes to tournament seeding, there cant be any of that though, its serious time. So yeah, Keep arguing with people and there lists on SWF, Im glad im bring you joy to to argue on a forum.

 

[Warhawk]

there is NOTHING to justify putting pp above javi, but there is something to justify putting javi over pp.
herpaderp ppl

Just because you won't recognize anything already listed as a possible justification doesn't mean that it isn't potentially a justification for doing so. This doesn't necessarily make it right or wrong for rating player placement either, but the point is that you just ignore it while pretending everyone else is ******** and that's why they don't agree with you as opposed to them just having different justifications or valuing certain justifications more than others for the purposes of rating players.

@Leffen I was not trying to imply your thinking was radical at all. I was asking whether or not you do think Javi is better than PP because I'm having trouble telling if you believe that (and I would normally think it as something you wouldn't believe after one tournament but your argument has me unsure) or if its just part of the argument that we should be more open minded that Javi could be better than PP, which I agree that he very well could be I would just like to see more of him against players that I personally can better use to gauge him with before I personally believe it. I don't know how I was being biased, but I guess I could have worded my intent better.

 

[ajp_anton]

The argument for Lovage beating him which means he is "limited" is ****ING ********, im sorry AJP.

Armada has lost to SS, so he cant be better than M2K. PP, Hbox and Mango have a ****LOAD of random losses that should "limit" them. Hbox lost to fly, chudat, lucky, plup, KK.
PP has lost to Tope, Taj, Shroomed, Axe. Mango has lost to Cactuar, Eggz, and god knows how many players when people assume that he is "sandbagging".

A random loss doesn't mean much when there's overwhelming proof of a much higher skill. What Javi has is proof of the possibility of a high skill level, but nothing overwhelming. I know it's a win against fkin PP, but there's also a loss against Lovage within the - and I can't stress this enough - very little data available. This loss is unfortunately a big % of the total number of sets he played, and that loss wasn't against an Armada.

@AJPs answer: I don't even know if its that "valid" to assume the US is better because they have a bigger scene anymore. Every game but melee basically has proven this strategy to be dead wrong and its being proven right again and again for every new game (like SFxT this weekend...)

Any reasonable person can at least should take an objective look at how big the US scene is for everything compared to how they do... the ratio is fkn awful in most games tbh
It clearly points away from "more people=better" in every possible way.

Fair enough. Like I said about Korea, if the statistics start to go against the biggest community, start trusting that instead =). I just don't know enough about those statistics...

 

[Tee ay eye]

armada is viewing this thread.

 

[The Good Doctor]

armada was viewing this thread.

Had to correct your +1

 

[Bing]

People need to stop openning these threads. They just cause pain.

 

[Divinokage]

People need to stop openning these threads. They just cause pain.

Pain is a chance for people to grow, it's not bad. =)

 

[JPOBS]

Why all the S2J love?
He's good, but seeing him get ***** by Lovage at the Big House I would put him way above S2J.

This is the dumbest thing i've read in a while. Which is saying something because mikehagger has been posting in this thread too.

The lack of respect for Wobbles is absolutely astounding.

He's rank ***ing 4 on ssbpd.com's smash ELO rating, only under Armada, Mango, and Hbox (pretty good company), and this isn't enough for him to sniff top 10?

A lot of people seem to have Javi on their lists (rather high as well) and are completely ignoring Wobbles. Let's compare their smash histories for a second.

Javi: http://ssbpd.com/player/1975?noRewrite=true
Wobbles: http://ssbpd.com/player/Wobbles

Javi's only major U.S. tournament thus far has been Apex. He lost to two really good players (Hbox/Lovage) and beat one arguably top 5 player (Dr. PP)

If we looked at nothing else but Wobbles' performance at APEX, you'd see a similar pattern - Wobbles lost to two really good players (Hbox, Dr. PP) and beat one arguably top 5 player (Mew2King).

And yet, Wobbles has been doing it for more consistently and for a much longer time span than Javi.

You guys have to stop catapulting players into a top 10 ranking just because of one good tournament performance.

I'm not saying Wobbles is necessarily top 10 at this point. I'm just saying you guys need to be consistent. Catapulting Javi (someone ranked him 4th best after a one tournament performance? Really?) into the top 10 after a single tournament but ignoring Wobbles simultaneously makes no sense at all. Stay consistent.

I like this guy. He's actually got some smarts.

Wobbles is the most underrated player in our community, consistently beats top players in bracket, consistently places top 10 (when he attends), and is a goddamn juggernaut in crews.

Wobbles for Top 10.

 

[mhenlo]

1. Armada
2. Mango
3. HBox
4. Dr. PeePee
5. M2K
6. Javi
7. Shroomed
8. KK
9. Hax
10. Lovage

 

[Bing]

Pain maybe a chance to grow... but generally these doesnt cause growth...

 

[The Good Doctor]

@JPOBS
Lovage wrecked that entire tournament, so how exactly am I stupid?

 

[Beat!]

Yeah people need to stop sleeping on Wobbles. Definitely top 10 as well.

 

[leffen]

A random loss doesn't mean much when there's overwhelming proof of a much higher skill. What Javi has is proof of the possibility of a high skill level, but nothing overwhelming. I know it's a win against fkin PP, but there's also a loss against Lovage within the - and I can't stress this enough - very little data available. This loss is unfortunately a big % of the total number of sets he played, and that loss wasn't against an Armada.

There is SO much proof of higher skill than Lovage. He outplaced him by much, he dominates players lovage gets dominated by (PP) and he has been absolutely dominant in Mexico for what, 5+ years? Tuga and the others are also obviously very skilled...
Lovage beat him in winners, and then he beat him 2-0 pretty solidly.
Lovage himself said that Javi was playing much worse in winners, and the most recent set should always be worth more...

and how does PP have overwhelming proof that he is better than Taj? Taj heavily outplaced him, beat people (Mango) that he didnt beat, and PP has not outplaced Taj's Marth since. Shroomed beat PP, and they havent faced since. Axe beat PP, and they haven't played since. (Idk about tope tho). These wins have MUCH more solidity than Lovages 1-1 (not even a advantage for him, and he got revenge ffs!)

PPs losses were not against an Armada either, and neither were most of Mangos, M2ks and HBox's.

Also, I think its VERY unfair to let an early loss impact his otherwise good placing.You are essentially increasing the effect such a loss should have for your arguments favor.

He paid HARD for losing - He had to beat sooooo many more good players through the loser bracket compared to lovage ... (who after facing in winners bracket, only won against chillindude and then got 2-0d by Mango and Javi)

I honestly do not see where you are coming from AJP. Its just bad logic imho

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

There is SO much proof of higher skill than Lovage. He outplaced him by much, he dominates players lovage gets dominated by (PP) and he has been absolutely dominant in Mexico for what, 5+ years? Tuga and the others are also obviously very skilled...

We can agree that Tuga and Mexico, as a whole, are very skilled, but that’s still a relative term. Where would we put them in the scale of already established players? This is why it’s difficult to translate Javi’s dominance in Mexico. The people in this thread are not invalidating his placement in Mexico, but it still has no definable merit relative to everyone else in the top 10 list. Don't polarize what's being said. I'm not dismissing the POSSIBILITY of Javi > PP, but at the same time, I can't conclusively put an unproven player over a proven player.

Lovage beat him in winners, and then he beat him 2-0 pretty solidly.
Lovage himself said that Javi was playing much worse in winners, and the most recent set should always be worth more... and how does PP have overwhelming proof that he is better than Taj? Taj heavily outplaced him, beat people (Mango) that he didnt beat, and PP has not outplaced Taj's Marth since. Shroomed beat PP, and they havent faced since. Axe beat PP, and they haven't played since. (Idk about tope tho). These wins have MUCH more solidity than Lovages 1-1 (not even a advantage for him, and he got revenge ffs!)

Did you see how Mango was playing against Taj in winners? If anything, that loser's set between Mango and Taj should determine the relative skill level in relation to Taj. Also, Dr. PP did beat Mango at WGF.

Additionally, Taj did well at one tournament. Dr. PP has done considerably more over the past year (2nd Rom4, 1st Pound 5 to name a few), which greatly skews the results in PP's favor

TL DR: Javi has the potential of Top 4, but the results are still inconclusive

 

[Bing]

Leffen, no one is denying that Javi is a great player, just most of us havent seen much of him, or even heard a ton about him other than Apex. And on another note, how did this comparison between PP and Taj come into this. When was the last time Taj entered a major tournament that they were both in. Your statement is based off of one tournament. Yes at Genesis 2, Taj was a ****ing Monster. He put Mango in Losers, and got 3rd, what a beast, and I'd love to see him play at a national again, But again, its 1 tournament, and being honest, pretty sure PP has the upper hand on PP