Whats with people and Honor

[Orion*]

it beats nado so easily to XD.

edit: OMGHALDBERDSAIDHAIII

 

[JOE!]

all BBrawl does is create char diversity, its the same boring game with the same camping. B+ if thats what you want bro

(little late but w/e)

Char diversity IS fun, and is essentially the basis of what this thread is talking about in terms of honor:

BBrawl eliminated essentially all abuses, and even has anti-planking codes in place...it even stops scrooging...this allows for hardcore camping and Match-up abuses to be essentially irrelavent.

There are only two Matche soff the top of my head that can even still be considered stupid in BBrawl: Shiek vs Ganon, and Olimar vs Ike, both of which are only 70/30...but easily countered by clever counterpicking via stage selection to make them managable for ike and ganon, seeing as without laser locks or wall infinites/etc, many more stages can be added to the legal list.

That said, you can still camp in BBrawl if you want, it was never eliminated, but the characters (such as Ganon and ike) that got hit hardest by camping now have much better options to either approach or simply get such rediculous reward vs campy character that it should balance out

 

[Judo777]

So wait u just told everyone to force the game to be overcentralized? "Dont play X character cause they are bad all i wanna see are MK dittos" thats what i got out of this.

Also if u want to show people how gay the game is and want the games diversity to to be much less then go play some other game.

 

[Damage Points]

So wait u just told everyone to force the game to be overcentralized? "Dont play X character cause they are bad all i wanna see are MK dittos" thats what i got out of this.

Also if u want to show people how gay the game is and want the games diversity to to be much less then go play some other game.

like SSF4!!!! and mvc3 when they come out!

 

[King~]

So wait u just told everyone to force the game to be overcentralized? "Dont play X character cause they are bad all i wanna see are MK dittos" thats what i got out of this.

Also if u want to show people how gay the game is and want the games diversity to to be much less then go play some other game.

nah what hes sayin is you can main so and so, but use brawls counterpick system to your advantge, abuse some of the messed up match ups in this game. cp people to japes and camp lasers, then get CP to like frigate and they go pikachu/ICs and CG you.

eat or be ate basically.

 

[Damage Points]

or counter pick mk and spam nado and dsmash. =)

 

[MarKO X]

Brawl would be much more amazing if people followed this philosophy.

 

[Orion*]

(little late but w/e)

Char diversity IS fun, and is essentially the basis of what this thread is talking about in terms of honor:

BBrawl eliminated essentially all abuses, and even has anti-planking codes in place...it even stops scrooging...this allows for hardcore camping and Match-up abuses to be essentially irrelavent.

There are only two Matche soff the top of my head that can even still be considered stupid in BBrawl: Shiek vs Ganon, and Olimar vs Ike, both of which are only 70/30...but easily countered by clever counterpicking via stage selection to make them managable for ike and ganon, seeing as without laser locks or wall infinites/etc, many more stages can be added to the legal list.

That said, you can still camp in BBrawl if you want, it was never eliminated, but the characters (such as Ganon and ike) that got hit hardest by camping now have much better options to either approach or simply get such rediculous reward vs campy character that it should balance out

i honestly feel if the game was taken seriously then there would still be a biased tier list in that game, because of 2 things. it would just turn into, "brawlversion2".

1) the nature of brawl, and the engine that this game runs on

this game, no matter what you do will promote camping. because of the fact that our life is based on our present position on the stage, and DI, there is very little TRUE combos (excuse ICs atm, theres a reason this character should be S tier rofl). because the punishment system is so bad, theres no reason to not camp and then throw out stupid ****.

everyone at some point has had mk throw out a random shuttle loop and kill you at like 60% because you DI'd bad. guess what, the game supports that. if mk hits you, your offstage, = edgaurding or you died. if mk misses, assuming he was smart and auto cancels the shuttle loop right, even against ics, hes only taking some percent. in other games, you would lose the entire round, stock . life whatever. i guarantee you people wouldnt just throw **** out if they died if they missed.
in fact, taking out things like cgs, destroys a lot of characters punishment game, you are forcing them to camp even worse at the top of the metagame.

ntm.
even brawl+, as hard as theyve tried, camping in B+ is still ****ing gay. even as hard as they balanced it, as the game was played more, characters like (idk if theyve patched since pound forgive me but as an example) jiggs was ridiculously better than most of the cast.
2) the nature of fighting games

no matter how balanced the game is, top tier almost always will generally prevail in competitive fighters. that is the nature of fighting games. people act like brawl is unique in the fact that mk is dominant, imo hes not winning that much. only time will tell, but i sourly doubt you can reasonably ban him

edit: not to start mk ban debate, but it is relevant to the engine of the game and why it is like this

 

[Huggles828]

It's true that there is absolutely no way to make every character in a fighting game exactly even when they have such diversity as they do in Brawl. But Balanced Brawl tried to make it as close as they could with the information they have, so that instead of Ganondorf at bottom tier essentially having no legitimate chance of competing, the bottom tier character in BBrawl at least has a fighting chance to win, thus promoting more diversity than what is in regular Brawl. Also, the idea was to give characters ways around the camping, so that camping, while still useful, will not allow you to completely dominate by itself.

One of the aspects of the game IS the counterpick system; MetaKnight completely shatters it because there is only one "counterpick" to MetaKnight; another MetaKnight (in Melee even Fox had some matchups that weren't favorable). So if you pick Falco and camp someone you will eventually have to fight Pikachu with a pretty nasty disadvantage; if you're MetaKnight, you can guarantee no worse than a completely even matchup; against another MetaKnight. So even though he might not **** Donkey Kong as much as Dedede, he still beats Donkey Kong, and the Donkey Kong player has no way of counterpicking against MetaKnight. Thus, following your argument all the way, there is no reason for anyone to ever play any character except MetaKnight. If MetaKnight were banned, character diversity could legitimately be improved; the new top character, Snake, struggles a bit against Olimar and Dedede. Thus, Olimar and Dedede would become more common, and then people would start pocketing Olimar and Dedede counters, like Luigi (for Olimar).

 

[Judo777]

There is also an issue of pride. If u pick a character that has a 7/3 MU against me then i beat u anyway u must suck lol.

 

[GHNeko]

There is also an issue of pride. If u pick a character that has a 7/3 MU against me then i beat u anyway u must suck lol.

if someone picks up a character with a 7/3 match up that mean's he's smart. how good he is has nothing to do with that. and being a main of a character with such a match up, you sorta need to know how to play it.

 

[etecoon]

he's saying that people are afraid to lose a 7:3 matchup, and to some extent I think that this is true for a lot of people, they play with worse odds so that they can keep some misguided sense of pride. I've known a lot of low tier mains to be like this, they play a bad character so that no one expects them to do **** but have a major ego trip any time they do get lucky and win

 

[san.]

he's saying that people are afraid to lose a 7:3 matchup, and to some extent I think that this is true for a lot of people, they play with worse odds so that they can keep some misguided sense of pride. I've known a lot of low tier mains to be like this, they play a bad character so that no one expects them to do **** but have a major ego trip any time they do get lucky and win

O_o A win's a win, dude.

 

[etecoon]

wasn't really the point, just saying some people are spineless and want to pretend that they have reason to be prideful without actually doing much

 

[Turbo Ether]

There is also an issue of pride. If u pick a character that has a 7/3 MU against me then i beat u anyway u must suck lol.

Tempted to sig this.

 

[Orion*]

Tempted to sig this.

but you dont because you play samus. and that alone is heresy

 

[Kole]

you mean people actually main samus?

 

[Albert.]

The idea that people can just pick up these "niche **** Match up Characters" (like olimar for Ike) and do well with them is dis-proven by the fact that people aren't really that successful with this tactic.

The original Poster is acting as if hard Counter-picking is an Auto-win. When you switch to that character, you're still going into unfamiliar territories, Your niche-**** secondary is never gonna be as comfortable to play as as your main.

Also- The people that main these "vulernable" characters (I. E. Anybody not in the top 10) Have probably spent a lot of time on these so-called "auto-loss" MUs and they actually make them close to even

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

stop being honorable people and make characters that have 7:3 or worse matchups be forced to play them.

there is literally no reason why everyone doesnt have a pocket ics, falco, D3, snake, mk, essentially all top and high tier characters that just absolutely **** 90% of the cast.

i see so many people play characters like fox in tournament, and stay mk, or go snake or something and im like wtf is wrong you. go ice climbers and double blind that ******, fox is not viable. or you see someone go D3, GO FALCO. i dont really see how a lot of characters make it out of pools, they are unviable as mains.

i see san winning with ike. WHERE ARE THE OLIMARS. char is mad easy to play, and 99-1s ike. not to knock san, hes an amazing player. i see yoshis and ZSS's place, where are the falcos? i see GaWs place, where are the diddy kongs?!?

if there is a character that has a 7:3 or harder matchup, you have no excuse to lose to them, at least on your cp. get your pocket top tiers out, time people out, and show people how gay this game is. kthnxbai

I can't believe you actually posted something worthwhile.

I agree completely.

Holy ****... Orion made a good thread. I agree completely-I even said something along these lines a while back, claiming that a person who can counterpick everyone's worst matchup effectively is better off than anyone else.

 

[AllyKnight]

i suck at marth mu

 

[Vermanubis]

Maybe some people feel cheap when they intentionally put their opponent at impossible odds?

Some people like to win honorably and with hard work. Others just go for whatever the ending screen says. Apples and oranges.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think that Almost believes that marth loses every MU, when it comes to Marth he's basically trolling whether he knows it or not.



Almost, let me ask you this, why does Ally have so much trouble with Mike? There's actually something important here, and whether snake should be doing this defines where the MU ratio is.

It's not that I have an anti Marth bias. I do not think he's as good as people say he is nor do I believe he wins certain match ups that are claimed to be 6-4 in his favor or 65-35 in his favor. I will however, ask you to go back and watch the ally vs neo matches and no offense to ally or haze but ally SD a couple of times in those matches and Haze took advantage of it. The reason Ally may struggle against haze is because he doesn't know the marth match up. I'm pretty sure if he treated Marth like MK instead trying a whole bunch of silly ****. He wouldn't lose to a Marth. It's also funny how people big up Haze for being Ally then disregrad that the fact that Haze beat ally in lose in the same tourney at evo. But whatever I think its' 2-1 in Haze's favor currently. Also another reason Ally may struggle with Haze is because haze does random things at random times that he should be getting punished for or shouldn't be working at all but for whatever reason they do.

Nah, you're right, Ganon is and will always be the worst character in the game. That's not going to stop me from trying to reach his limits.



That's exactly my point. I don't know how far I'm going to go with Ganon, but I have to continue trying until I reach that point. Once I reach the point where I feel I can't take my character any further, I'll figure out what options I have then. Until then, I need to know how far I can take my character.

However, I wonder how far do you think you can go with ganon. Without knowing anything about your tourney results. It's hard for me to say however, depending on where you're placing and where you feel as though you should be placing. The putting in that much effort and work into ganon. At least in my opinion it is better to put all that work into a better character and yield better results.

you really know nothing about either character, do you

If you say so. Snake doesn't have to approach in this match up and he shouldn't. Good nade camping and nade countering will wreck marth. The fact that Marth is also out range by snake has a hard time killing snake. I don't care how much you ready his air dodge or the frame traps Marth have on snake this match up isn't any where close to even.


Sorry for the late response totally forgot about this thread.

 

[Eddie G]

he's saying that people are afraid to lose a 7:3 matchup, and to some extent I think that this is true for a lot of people, they play with worse odds so that they can keep some misguided sense of pride. I've known a lot of low tier mains to be like this, they play a bad character so that no one expects them to do **** but have a major ego trip any time they do get lucky and win

That's why I stick with Peach.

Not exceptional, not terrible. Dead center.

Get at me. ;D

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This guy knows what he is talking about.
I agree completely 100%

 

[Turbo Ether]

but you dont because you play samus. and that alone is heresy

Were you high when you posted this?

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

honor doesn't really matter when you get the cash$ for placing 1st and your opponent places 2nd

I was surprised to see a Luigi place so high. I thought most of the top pros would have a DDD to deal with the EZCG matchups he has.

Whatever though

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Maybe some people feel cheap when they intentionally put their opponent at impossible odds?

Some people like to win honorably and with hard work. Others just go for whatever the ending screen says. Apples and oranges.

See, the former are what we call "scrubs". Until the community as a whole decides that a certain method is cheap/overpowered to the extent of shutting most of the others out (for example, if a super majority were to say MK is super broken and needs to be banned), that's when people who mentally block out said strategy stop being scrubs.

Anyone who doesn't go DDD against DK is stupid. Anyone who doesn't go Marth against Ness/Lucas is stupid. Anyone who goes low tier for any reason other than a hard matchup for someone else (Samus vs. Ike or Luigi/Jiggs vs. Diddy) is stupid.

 

[etecoon]

I will however, ask you to go back and watch the ally vs neo matches and no offense to ally or haze but ally SD a couple of times in those matches and Haze took advantage of it.

neo didn't play very well and lost the second game mostly because of tripping. and I didn't see snake beating marth, I just saw the #1 or 2 player in the world beating a really good player, ally will beat 99% of the players out there consistently anyway including every other snake, typical that people only consider the MU though

If you say so. Snake doesn't have to approach in this match up and he shouldn't. Good nade camping and nade countering will wreck marth. The fact that Marth is also out range by snake has a hard time killing snake. I don't care how much you ready his air dodge or the frame traps Marth have on snake this match up isn't any where close to even.

nade countering wins this MU? snake outranges marth? LOL

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

neo didn't play very well and lost the second game mostly because of tripping. and I didn't see snake beating marth, I just saw the #1 or 2 player in the world beating a really good player, ally will beat 99% of the players out there consistently anyway including every other snake, typical that people only consider the MU though



nade countering wins this MU? snake outranges marth? LOL

*sigh* I'll stop. Think the match up is even for all you want LoL it's means nothing to me and it's just a waste for me to try to convince you other wise. So continue to main marth and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Joemama8]

God..... I read all of this...

THEN I WAS LIKE

COOL STORY BRO!

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's not that I have an anti Marth bias. I do not think he's as good as people say he is nor do I believe he wins certain match ups that are claimed to be 6-4 in his favor or 65-35 in his favor. I will however, ask you to go back and watch the ally vs neo matches and no offense to ally or haze but ally SD a couple of times in those matches and Haze took advantage of it. The reason Ally may struggle against haze is because he doesn't know the marth match up. I'm pretty sure if he treated Marth like MK instead trying a whole bunch of silly ****. He wouldn't lose to a Marth. It's also funny how people big up Haze for being Ally then disregrad that the fact that Haze beat ally in lose in the same tourney at evo. But whatever I think its' 2-1 in Haze's favor currently. Also another reason Ally may struggle with Haze is because haze does random things at random times that he should be getting punished for or shouldn't be working at all but for whatever reason they do.

No, what specifically does Ally do consistently that would result in marth giving him trouble.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No, what specifically does Ally do consistently that would result in marth giving him trouble.

Shouldn't you be asking Ally why he struggles with Marth ?

But from what I can see it's his

Air dodging

Lock of edge hogging (this may not cause him to struggle against marth but it's very effective to punish his up B with ledge drop bair's)

Him giving up stage control and allowing the Marth to control the center of the stage.

 

[Orion*]

i suck at marth mu

you dont really play most MUs "correctly". you dont even play gay for the most part, its kind of annoying. youre just reallllly smart and make amazing reads / setups LOL

Were you naked when you posted this?

probably. but only because i had a herpes outbreak

 

[Orion*]

See, the former are what we call "scrubs". Until the community as a whole decides that a certain method is cheap/overpowered to the extent of shutting most of the others out (for example, if a super majority were to say MK is super broken and needs to be banned), that's when people who mentally block out said strategy stop being scrubs.

Anyone who doesn't go DDD against DK is stupid. Anyone who doesn't go Marth against Ness/Lucas is stupid. Anyone who goes low tier for any reason other than a hard matchup for someone else (Samus vs. Ike or Luigi/Jiggs vs. Diddy) is stupid.

am i unblocked from your sight now mr.boodgetplyercadety

 

[adumbrodeus]

Shouldn't you be asking Ally why he struggles with Marth ?

But from what I can see it's his

Air dodging

Lock of edge hogging (this may not cause him to struggle against marth but it's very effective to punish his up B with ledge drop bair's)

Him giving up stage control and allowing the Marth to control the center of the stage.

I know the reason Ally has problems with Marth (I should be sure reletively soon if it's something forced on snake or if it's just ally), I'm asking you cause I wanna see if you figured it out Almost.


I'll give you some points for the last one because that's part of the implications of this, but the other two are completely off track.


Seriously, if you check out his matches against Mike Haze and even Neo and other marths he's fought, you'll notice something. Stage control is part of the result of this, but there are other implications.

 

[fkacyan]

am i unblocked from your sight now mr.boodgetplyercadety

The day BPC unblocks you is the day Erik would rather be outside playing a sport instead of playing a video game in his unlit room.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I know the reason Ally has problems with Marth (I should be sure reletively soon if it's something forced on snake or if it's just ally), I'm asking you cause I wanna see if you figured it out Almost.


I'll give you some points for the last one because that's part of the implications of this, but the other two are completely off track.


Seriously, if you check out his matches against Mike Haze and even Neo and other marths he's fought, you'll notice something. Stage control is part of the result of this, but there are other implications.

I haven't watched neo vs Ally. Don't really watch anymore Marth vids anymore.

 

[etecoon]

*sigh* I'll stop. Think the match up is even for all you want LoL it's means nothing to me and it's just a waste for me to try to convince you other wise. So continue to main marth and I wish you the best of luck.

I main MK actually, marth is mah #2, jus sayin, snake doesn't outrange marth except with dash attack, which is only viable as a punish for obvious reasons

Air dodging

and his other options are...? bair gets outranged pretty badly, nair is nearly useless against marth, and b reversals leave snake completely helpless if predicted. snake doesn't have good options in the air, all he can do is mix it up as best he can but nothing "really" works.

Lock of edge hogging (this may not cause him to struggle against marth but it's very effective to punish his up B with ledge drop bair's)

if marth recovers right he shouldn't be gimped by snake's bair, it presents an exponentially larger risk to snake as going off stage vs marth is pretty much the dumbest thing snake can do

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I main MK actually, marth is mah #2, jus sayin, snake doesn't outrange marth except with dash attack, which is only viable as a punish for obvious reasons



and his other options are...? bair gets outranged pretty badly, nair is nearly useless against marth, and b reversals leave snake completely helpless if predicted. snake doesn't have good options in the air, all he can do is mix it up as best he can but nothing "really" works.



if marth recovers right he shouldn't be gimped by snake's bair, it presents an exponentially larger risk to snake as going off stage vs marth is pretty much the dumbest thing snake can do

They we're times when he could of grabbed the ledge to force Marth to stand on the ledge. When I say air dodge I'm talking about trying tir dodge through Marth and air dodging immediately after marth's fair and etc. One of the things snake shouldn't do is to allow his air dodges to get read like that other wise this happens to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTSC8Ts8LL0

Old video but demonstrates my point perfectly. Also I thought the second hit of snakes ftilt out ranged marth's dtilt.

 

[etecoon]

old? that video never gets old hahaha

second hit does outrange marth's dtilt, and marth's shield breaker outranges that, while we're talking about unsafe and easy to block or dodge on reaction attacks