Whats with people and Honor

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Orion sucks.

On another note, I don't counterpick 90-10 mu's etc. Get at me D:

 

[TreK]

lol, every fox, DDD, Luigi, Olimar, Ike or Lucas main you'll meet from now on will plow you to death.

Edit -> anyhow, Biglou vs MikeHAZE was a great way to show you were wrong lolz

 

[Blacknight99923]

I want orion to admit his theory doesn't translate into actual play, only when its typed does this actually work


also any agruement of "I am a better player cause I am ranked" is a pretty stupid one in a forum debate. Just because you beat other players doesn't mean you know more about game then somone else, it just means your better at it, agruably in a forum words speak louder then actions

 

[sunshade]

I want orion to admit his theory doesn't translate into actual play, only when its typed does this actually work

What do you mean the theory doesn't translate into actual play? His statement (it was not even a theory) was that players should pursue any advantage they can get. He also made the statement that players should counterpick characters to remove the opponents options and force them to switch to a character they are less comfortable with or deal with a terrible match up. How does that not work in reality assuming the player counterpicking characters went to the trouble of learning to play the secondary effectively?

Orion is terrible at getting his point across but his opinion is not incorrect. He just makes it look like it is (or he is trolling).

 

[Blacknight99923]

What do you mean the theory doesn't translate into actual play? His statement (it was not even a theory) was that players should pursue any advantage they can get. He also made the statement that players should counterpick characters to remove the opponents options and force them to switch to a character they are less comfortable with or deal with a terrible match up. How does that not work in reality assuming the player counterpicking characters went to the trouble of learning to play the secondary effectively?

Orion is terrible at getting his point across but his opinion is not incorrect. He just makes it look like it is (or he is trolling).

I believe Adum myslef and KBizzle have already gone over this

 

[sunshade]

I believe Adum myslef and KBizzle have already gone over this

I just reread the entire thread and no you have not.

Adum agreed with the OP for the most part. He made the point that there are diminishing returns to the benefits of playing extra characters due to time being limited but the general idea of learning new characters and using them to CP is something he has not denied but in fact supported.

You have done nothing but say the OP is correct on paper but not in reality without any evidence or support and fight over Marth's viability with some trolls.

KBizzle has done the same as you but instead of fighting over Marth's viability he has beefed it out with Orion's trolling.

Tell my why learning additional characters and using them to your advantage only works on paper I would love to hear it.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I just reread the entire thread and no you have not.

Adum agreed with the OP for the most part. He made the point that there are diminishing returns to the benefits of playing extra characters due to time being limited but the general idea of learning new characters and using them to CP is something he has not denied.




QUOTE]

this

the time constraints prevent this idea from frutation, the origonal idea is CORRECT AS I HAVE POSTED BEFORE BUT ISN'T FEASIBLE IN REAL LIFE SITUATIONS. People don't have time to master ice climbers marth MK snake falco olimar. If a person sides falco and doesn't know all of his match ups he is LESS likely to win then the TL main who studied his match up and wins. the same applies to MK and TL if the TL knows the match up a lot better (since any decent player knows the MK match up with thier main) the MK side doesn't have as good of a chance as winning as a kirby main who knew the match ups of his main vs TL (this is assuming kirby TL is even which it might not be, if it isn't assume kirby is a character that goes even with TL). THAT is why this idea is better on paper which doesn't factor in time constraints and assumes infinite time or the actual ability to learn and practice every match up with 5 characters and be competent with all of them.


mabey in 5 years people will have "pocket Ic's" for for D3 and it will be a good idea but until then this idea just doesn't work.

 

[fkacyan]

HOLY GIANT WALLS OF TEXT I FELT LIKE SNIPPING BATMAN

I guess this entire thread is kind of my fault because it resulted from some discussions I've been having with Orion about some of my theories to... How would I put this...? Advance the metagame? It would result in far more centralization on about 5-6 characters which many people here would consider a step backwards, but eh, whatever.

A basic tenet of my theory that usually holds true as a heuristic is that the closer a matchup is to even or disadvantaged, the more advanced shenanigans you need to know to win. On the flip side, the more of an advantage you have in a matchup, the less you need to know with the character to win. D3 vs a character he can chaingrab is literally shield stuff until you grab the, rinse, repeat. Pikachu only needs to land a grab on characters he counters with his CG, etc. Thus, to pick up those characters as counter characters, you only need to learn their basics, what stages they counter best on, and the specific (Usually easy-to-use) counter technique involved. Obviously Ice Climbers is an exception to this because their CG is fairly difficult to time, and I don't think learning pocket ICs is a viable method to counter.

So as far as time to learn characters, the idea is that you're not learning the entire character. You're not learning all their ATs. Why? You're not taking them into a double-blind where you might be facing an even or disadvantaged matchup where you need to know those techniques. You're only using them in very specific matchups and situations to counter specific characters, making the strategy quite viable.

Thus, this thread is born, arguably with more trolling in mind than actually getting into the details of what was actually discussed. There's a lot more to my overall Brawl theory than just what I typed above, and I doubt I'll ever publish it in a series of posts or something, but I think it's only fair to Orion to let you guys know there's a fair amount of logic involved in the OP.

EDIT: And what Sunshade said below.

 

[sunshade]

the time constraints prevent this idea from frutation, the origonal idea is CORRECT AS I HAVE POSTED BEFORE BUT ISN'T FEASIBLE IN REAL LIFE SITUATIONS. People don't have time to master ice climbers marth MK snake falco olimar. If a person sides falco and doesn't know all of his match ups he is LESS likely to win then the TL main who studied his match up and wins. the same applies to MK and TL if the TL knows the match up a lot better (since any decent player knows the MK match up with thier main) the MK side doesn't have as good of a chance as winning as a kirby main who knew the match ups of his main vs TL (this is assuming kirby TL is even which it might not be, if it isn't assume kirby is a character that goes even with TL). THAT is why this idea is better on paper which doesn't factor in time constraints and assumes infinite time or the actual ability to learn and practice every match up with 5 characters and be competent with all of them.


mabey in 5 years people will have "pocket Ic's" for for D3 and it will be a good idea but until then this idea just doesn't work.

The idea is not to go out and master 20 characters so that you can pick the best character for the best match-up on each stage. It would be silly to suggest such a thing.

The idea being proposed here is learning your main and 1-3 secondarys to enhance your chances at victory. Obviously you need to know your main's matches that goes without saying. This thread is simply saying that you should learn a secondary or two so that you can make close to even or disadvantaged matches more advantageous for you and counter picking characters is a viable method of doing this.

It is completely "FEASIBLE IN REAL LIFE SITUATIONS" to learn your main and 2-3 extra characters. Kbizzle gave a nice little speech about how he plays peach, falco, and metaknight and that is exactly what this thread is suggestion you do.

 

[Blacknight99923]

The idea is not to go out and master 20 characters so that you can pick the best character for the best match-up on each stage. It would be silly to suggest such a thing.

The idea being proposed here is learning your main and 1-3 secondarys to enhance your chances at victory. Obviously you need to know your main's matches that goes without saying. This thread is simply saying that you should learn a secondary or two so that you can make close to even or disadvantaged matches more advantageous for you and counter picking characters is a viable method of doing this.

It is completely "FEASIBLE IN REAL LIFE SITUATIONS" to learn your main and 2-3 extra characters. Kbizzle gave a nice little speech about how he plays peach, falco, and metaknight and that is exactly what this thread is suggestion you do.

that idea varies from the op which is saying we should all have a character that has a 7-3 MU against fox shiek DK or higher for the sake of it, unless I am COMPLETELY OFF the impresssion I get from this thread is "get a character that ***** another character in every match up", orions post thereafter only seemed to solidify this conception I have

Realisticly me having a IC for MK and D3( which I actually do, but only plan on using them on D3) and then having some character that beats snake undisputably(since many people don't believe marth beats snake) would idealy be to my advantedge. I WILL NOT disagree with that. What i disagree with is the notion that its practical for me to master every high tier for every match up there is. epecially considering there are HUNDREDS of diffrent match ups in brawl


this is my main issue as quoted from OP that I do not believe is feasible
"there is literally no reason why everyone doesnt have a pocket ics, falco, D3, snake, mk, essentially all top and high tier characters that just absolutely **** 90% of the cast."

 

[fkacyan]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand my post goes ignored. yayyyyyyy for logical posts.

I'll just stick to giving my wisdom to the WoW community where people actually listen to it

 

[sunshade]

Orion does a terrible job arguing his points on just about everything I have seen him post. Looking at the actual idea behind this discussion there is nothing to argue, playing more characters is beneficial and will improve your chances at victory. I figured it would be obvious that you cant possibly main every character and that we were going to move past the massive hyperbole and discuss the actual ideal at hand.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I will agree that the basic idea of siding one or 2 characters to aid your match ups is statistically beneficial and cannot be refuted in any way as long as they aid your overal match ups

 

[Orion*]

. I figured it would be obvious that you cant possibly main every character and that we were going to move past the massive hyperbole and discuss the actual ideal at hand.

some people arent so bright but its k

I don't think learning pocket ICs is a viable method to counter.

i think i proved you wrong. so has ksizzle when he actually cared. cgs arent hard omg nobody goes in training mode anymore

 

[fkacyan]

i think i proved you wrong. so has ksizzle when he actually cared. cgs arent hard omg nobody goes in training mode anymore

Your pocket ICs countering me doesn't make them good pocket ICs ><

 

[Orion*]

Your pocket ICs countering me doesn't make them good pocket ICs ><

ummm im talking about in tournament. theyre next to my name for a reason in NJ >_>

edit: i beat you with ZSS in tournament LOL get at me

 

[fkacyan]

ummm im talking about in tournament. theyre next to my name for a reason in NJ >_>

edit: i beat you with ZSS in tournament LOL get at me

Isn't that because you randomly flipkickspiked and I wasn't ready to meteor cancel? I 3-0d your ZSS in the second set we played that night anyways.

 

[Orion*]

Isn't that because you randomly flipkickspiked and I wasn't ready to meteor cancel? I 3-0d your ZSS in the second set we played that night anyways.

i sandbagged

 

[fkacyan]

i sandbagged

all of my hate

 

[Orion*]

all of my johns

if you made it any more obvious SWF wouldve missed it

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I guess this entire thread is kind of my fault because it resulted from some discussions I've been having with Orion about some of my theories to... How would I put this...? Advance the metagame? It would result in far more centralization on about 5-6 characters which many people here would consider a step backwards, but eh, whatever.

A basic tenet of my theory that usually holds true as a heuristic is that the closer a matchup is to even or disadvantaged, the more advanced shenanigans you need to know to win. On the flip side, the more of an advantage you have in a matchup, the less you need to know with the character to win. D3 vs a character he can chaingrab is literally shield stuff until you grab the, rinse, repeat. Pikachu only needs to land a grab on characters he counters with his CG, etc. Thus, to pick up those characters as counter characters, you only need to learn their basics, what stages they counter best on, and the specific (Usually easy-to-use) counter technique involved. Obviously Ice Climbers is an exception to this because their CG is fairly difficult to time, and I don't think learning pocket ICs is a viable method to counter.

So as far as time to learn characters, the idea is that you're not learning the entire character. You're not learning all their ATs. Why? You're not taking them into a double-blind where you might be facing an even or disadvantaged matchup where you need to know those techniques. You're only using them in very specific matchups and situations to counter specific characters, making the strategy quite viable.

Thus, this thread is born, arguably with more trolling in mind than actually getting into the details of what was actually discussed. There's a lot more to my overall Brawl theory than just what I typed above, and I doubt I'll ever publish it in a series of posts or something, but I think it's only fair to Orion to let you guys know there's a fair amount of logic involved in the OP.

EDIT: And what Sunshade said below.

Pikachu isn't going to **** a Falco if all you know to do is Buffer CG. Also it gets quite picky in MU's like Sheik where he has to grab her before 18 or so % or he loses the CG.

Like I know the theory works for 7-3's and worse that aren't tech heavy, some of those 7-3's still need some learning to be done, a cp'd Falco for Link isn't gonna work if the Falco doesn't know how to work him in the MU properly.

 

[Orion*]

Pikachu isn't going to **** a Falco if all you know to do is Buffer CG. Also it gets quite picky in MU's like Sheik where he has to grab her before 18 or so % or he loses the CG.

true

Like I know the theory works for 7-3's and worse that aren't tech heavy, some of those 7-3's still need some learning to be done, a cp'd Falco for Link isn't gonna work if the Falco doesn't know how to work him in the MU properly.

false. link is AWFUL

 

[fkacyan]

Pikachu isn't going to **** a Falco if all you know to do is Buffer CG. Also it gets quite picky in MU's like Sheik where he has to grab her before 18 or so % or he loses the CG.

Like I know the theory works for 7-3's and worse that aren't tech heavy, some of those 7-3's still need some learning to be done, a cp'd Falco for Link isn't gonna work if the Falco doesn't know how to work him in the MU properly.

Hence me saying learning only the tools for the matchup. There are very few hard counters in which there is all that much specific tech skill to learn.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

false. link is AWFUL

Link is awful, but my point still stands.

Hence me saying learning only the tools for the matchup. There are very few hard counters in which there is all that much specific tech skill to learn.

Simplest would be King DDD.

Ice climbers still need tech skill, pikachu needs to learn grab set-ups and some tools. ZSS needs a little, not sure since I'm unclear on the button inputs for her infinities on R.O.B. and Fox. depends on the hard counter really.

 

[Eddie G]

Orion is actually ranked 9th in NJ, bro.

I actually can't wait to see KB's reaction to this.

Oops, my bad, didn't bother to research him. That's it.

Ranked or not, Orion, come to MLG Columbus and let's MM there.

 

[Flayl]

I think it's funny how thiocyanide thinks he's the first to ever consider this.

Keep on trukkin' bro.

 

[Orion*]

Oops, my bad, didn't bother to research him. That's it.

Ranked or not, Orion, come to MLG Columbus and let's MM there.

like i have time to go to columbus to money match a peach main. yes GREAT LOGIC bro, infact i should drive to your house so you can dollar mm my falcon and lose like everyone else. why dont you come to a NJ tournament sometime so you actually play someone good other than m2k every 6 months.

I think it's funny how thiocyanide thinks he's smart.

Keep on trukkin' bro.

and i thought i was the only one. ****, great minds think a like.

but yeah, KB obviously is a outlier exception to my OP and he really shouldnt be considered a tournament threat if people CP and pick the right characters game 1.

 

[Eddie G]

like i have time to go to columbus to money match a peach main. yes GREAT LOGIC bro, infact i should drive to your house so you can dollar mm my falcon and lose like everyone else. why dont you come to a NJ tournament sometime so you actually play someone good other than m2k every 6 months.

Who said I'd go Peach?

I just figured you were going to attend a big event like MLG and wanted to MM you if you did, geez...

And I plan on coming over to NY/NJ more often (and more often smash related) once I get financially settled in irl. I've already gone to EC for Pound 4, MMed Candy and Logic, 2-0'd Malcolm in pools, and played some others from the EC, so it's not like I've never been over there (or played anyone from there) at all and I'm not a total stranger to how good you guys are. Can you say the same for you coming to the MW or playing anyone from here? Just curious.

And I'm not sure why you'd even say that about me not being a threat to Flayl in the rest of your post. I have common sense when it comes to tournament play, and I already said I don't disagree with your logic, but I follow just a slightly different mindset in that I consider some other things in addition to what you would consider when it comes to making my choices competitively. You should lighten up a little and chill with spewing the insults. =/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Since Orion is too scared of MMing Kbizzle or he wants to continue his trolling, I'll do it.

Kbizzle wanna $5 MM at Columbus? I 'll tell you right away I'll be using Link, you can use whoever you want.

 

[Eddie G]

Since Orion is too scared of MMing Kbizzle or he wants to continue his trolling, I'll do it.

Kbizzle wanna $5 MM at Columbus? I 'll tell you right away I'll be using Link, you can use whoever you want.

Sure let's do it.

Visual aid: I'll probably be wearing a "BW" hoodie with a Killer Bee on the back. It's hard to miss, other than us occasionally being swallowed by crowds and ****. xD

 

[Orion*]

Who said I'd go Peach?

sweet. random ditto mm? :D

I just figured you were going to attend a big event like MLG and wanted to MM you if you did, geez...

id miss school, any more absences and im not graduating. **** that LOL
Edit: i do 6 days of school a week for music, so i dont even knwo when my next tourny will be, but i will at Apex definitely lmao

[And I plan on coming over to NY/NJ more often (and more often smash related) once I get financially settled in irl. I've already gone to EC for Pound 4, MMed Candy and Logic, 2-0'd Malcolm in pools, and played some others from the EC, so it's not like I've never been over there (or played anyone from there) at all and I'm not a total stranger to how good you guys are. Can you say the same for you coming to the MW or playing anyone from here? Just curious.[/color]

ive played lain judge and hunger off the top of my head, prolly more at nationals.

[And I'm not sure why you'd even say that about me not being a threat to Flayl in the rest of your post. I have common sense when it comes to tournament play, and I already said I don't disagree with your logic, but I follow just a slightly different mindset in that I consider some other things in addition to what you would consider when it comes to making my choices competitively. You should lighten up a little and chill with spewing the insults. =/[/color]

when i say YOU, im saying that because of the character that you use, not your skill level. this thread isnt even about skill, idk why youd get insulted over such a trivial statement. note that i related it to correct character cps and choices right after....
if i mained ganon would you consider me a tourny threat if i had m2ks skill level? probably not, so i dont see why youre spamming QQ faces on tactical

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ITT: americans brag about their accomplishments while EU is better

 

[Orion*]

ITT: americans brag about their accomplishments while EU has no accomplishments since they havent played the american best players.

fixed*

10char

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

ITT: americans brag about their accomplishments while US has no accomplishments since they havent played the european best players.

Fixed your fix

 

[Juushichi]

ITT: America vs UK 2: Electric Boogaloo

It's like I'm on /sp/ all over again.

 

[fkacyan]

I think it's funny how thiocyanide thinks he's the first to ever consider this.

Keep on trukkin' bro.

I've never said I was the only one to consider this, nor thought it. I would say many people haven't, however, because barely anybody abuses the concept.

 

[Matador]

This game would die if everyone completely played to win.

Abusing the CP system, however, is something that I can get behind. More people (including myself) should be doing it.

 

[Eddie G]

sweet. random ditto mm? :D

Sure why not... xD

id miss school, any more absences and im not graduating. **** that LOL
Edit: i do 6 days of school a week for music, so i dont even knwo when my next tourny will be, but i will at Apex definitely lmao

Ok, not sure if I'm going to that yet since I'll be doing two nationals in a row (MLG/Showdown) and have some crazy bills coming up but I'll see if I can do Apex still.

ive played lain judge and hunger off the top of my head, prolly more at nationals.

Ok, what did you think of them?

when i say YOU, im saying that because of the character that you use, not your skill level. this thread isnt even about skill, idk why youd get insulted over such a trivial statement. note that i related it to correct character cps and choices right after....
if i mained ganon would you consider me a tourny threat if i had m2ks skill level? probably not, so i dont see why youre spamming QQ faces on tactical

I see what you mean, and I only got insulted by it because the reason you disregarded me is the same reason which I myself avoid doing to other people for my own benefit (aka I never underestimate anyone for any reason to prevent myself from slacking off at all). I know it's tempting and instinctive to say "oh...well this guy's character blows therefore I'll have no trouble whatsoever", which is probably true and I've certainly thought like that before in both Brawl and Melee, but why not mentally prepare yourself for any possible surprises anyway just to be safe and alert?

As for your question, for the sake of staying alert and playing my best, yes I would consider you a threat no matter who you used on me. I'm well aware of the cp system and what works/what doesn't, but as long as you're an opponent who stands in between me and the money...I consider you a threat. No QQing from me, just real talk. :3

 

[Roie]

Never consider yourself a "Peach" or a "MK".

 

[Orion*]

...I consider you a threat.[/color]

bow in my awe of absolute glory!