What SBR Members Think of Metaknight (DL UP!)

[GofG]

He beats scars better than neosporin does.

 

[Yuna]

What a stupid community.

I'm dead serious. This is what you get when you get a bunch of teenagers and twenty-somethings who play Nintendo games and try to have them govern themselves.

I resent that. Most of my favorite games of all time were not made by Nintendo (many not even published on a Nintendo machine).

Also, pie > all.

 

[_Phloat_]

While I sympathize with, and to a degree understand, your first point (being a moderator of a similar forum in the past) it would easily be solved by simply adding to the rules something to the effect of "Do not post topics in general/tactical/wherever in response to SBR threads." Sure, at first it would require a bit more work on the mods part (people would surely do this despite the rules), but once they begin to crack down on it people will stop testing the rule and it will be a non issue. So in the short term its a bit more work, but in the long term its not much at all.

There's a difference between being elite and being an elitist. Hiding the SBR from public view is the latter.

Your 3rd point would just be individuals being attention whores.

As for "Why not?" because allowing public access gives players that future rulings will affect a chance to anticipate changes and such. If the things that happen in the SBR only affected SBR members it would be fine to keep it hidden, but it affects the majority of the community, if not all of them. I still see no real drawback to allowing the SBR to be public viewable.

Don't know if this has been answered, but I saw this post and needed to respond.

At first I thought like this, and to this day I wish I could read the SBR. But I can't. However, the epidemic of "debaters" just posting sirlin.net or other links instead of saying ANYTHING would become the same for the SBR.

You see what happens to their quotes when they say anything in public, hell sometimes each side uses the same quote.

 

[fkacyan]

What a stupid community.

I'm dead serious. This is what you get when you get a bunch of teenagers and twenty-somethings who play Nintendo games and try to have them govern themselves.

I'm sorry we don't all see the light, o wise one (Read: GofG's opinion).

 

[GofG]

Well of course it's my opinion! I'm the person typing it, aren't I? Jesus Christ.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Also, pie > all.

The pie is a lie.
The cookie is not.

@gofg: I love you for that comment about beating scar.

 

[Anth0ny]

M2K was originally going to join us, but he had to back out for personal reasons. So Umbreon took his place in the debate.

Oh man! M2K vs. Overswarm would have been too good

Nonetheless, this debate is going to be very interesting. Can't wait.

 

[AlphaZealot]

It is a debate, nothing will be settled, both sides will be presented, and then whoever is listening can make decisions based on what they felt was more compelling.

 

[IvanEva]

What a stupid community.

I'm dead serious. This is what you get when you get a bunch of teenagers and twenty-somethings who play Nintendo games and try to have them govern themselves.

From my experiences with other game's boards (even the GameFAQs Smash boards), Smash World Forums has the single best community. It has a much higher percent of "non-stupid" people than anywhere else.

I think that you'll find that just about every game community is composed of teenagers and twenty-somethings. Yes, there's no doubt that the overwhelming majority of us are Nintendo fans. If it wasn't Mario, Link, etc. most of us would probably have left Smash ages ago. I should hope that most of us play games outside of Nintendo.

We only have to govern ourselves because the game we're playing didn't do it for us and we aren't the creator's target audience. By providing us with a ton of options but having the defaults be comparitively unenjoyable the Smash community has basically had to invent its own standards (on that note, I hear that All-Brawl is all the rage these days ).

To say that the SBR doesn't force/control us is only partly true. Their influence, while unofficial and technically powerless, on the community is huge. What they say is generally considered to be immediately Smash standard. People rarely say 'the SBR's tier list', they say THE Tier list. If the SBR says that Metaknight is banned, most people will listen and start banning him without question (of course, that's just speculation. I don't actually have any real proof to back of my claims. Still...). My problem with the SBR is that they have a lot of influence but they aren't transparent. We, the little people, can't see how certain decissions were decided upon. Decisions that DO affect us.

I like standards and for a super customizable game like Smash (with lame timer defaults), they're needed. The SBR provides that, which is good. But to do so behind closed doors is insulting to the intelligence of the rest of the community.

 

[The Great Leon]

Edrees the BEAST

 

[-Jumpman-]

Just compare this to the senate. That IS the easiest and it's almost the same (senate in the Roman empire).

 

[Yuna]

I think that you'll find that just about every game community is composed of teenagers and twenty-somethings. Yes, there's no doubt that the overwhelming majority of us are Nintendo fans. If it wasn't Mario, Link, etc. most of us would probably have left Smash ages ago. I should hope that most of us play games outside of Nintendo.

Then that begs the question: Why play the game Competitively if all of most of what you like about it is the fanservice that allows you to play as your favourite Nintendo characters (since it takes money, dedication, practice, time, etc.)?

 

[Yuna]

Just compare this to the senate. That IS the easiest and it's almost the same (senate in the Roman empire).

Only the senate actually governed Rome.

 

[revengeska]

I have to disagree.
Your queen is the most powerful and influential piece but as you said earlier, without the rest of the pieces she is nothing.

She needs the other pieces to move accordingly in order to ensure safe capture of the enemies pieces and lay down traps. She relies just heavily upon the doings of the other pieces besides herself.'

if you lose your queen early in a chess game it hurts, but by no means does this guarantee a loss. This is a similar situation with the SBR.
While the SBR is the most influential piece in our chess game, if we lost the SBR we would still be very capable without the piece.

So I disagree, the SBR only gives off the appearance of having that much power only because of everything else. yes it is a very powerful piece by without the other pieces, the TO's, the players, etc etc they cannot accomplish anything.

You can win a game of chess without your queen but you cannot win a chess game with only your queen. Just as she relies on all the other pieces to enact her power so does the SBR rely on the TO's and players for their power.

I was thinking a medievil society not chess by the way but I like the chess analogy better.

Has anyone ever managed to promote a pawn to queen?

Heh, you guys better be careful when you make chess analogies, I WILL catch you if you slip up.

In the tournament chess scene, if you lose your queen for no compensation(or not enough), be it positional or material, your chances of winning the game are virtually none. Most people resign at that point. I'm willing to bet there's several people in your area that, if they were given a queen handicap, they could beat the world champion. It's seriously that decisive. If you lose several other pieces, sure, it does come out to be more important than the queen. Don't think of a piece's value changing because other pieces aren't on the board, it's not as simple as that.

Not saying your idea is wrong, it just isn't a good analogy.

And yes, I've promoted pawns plenty of times before. It's not too uncommon. And they weren't always queens

As a tournament level chess player.... yes, people promote pawns to queens. Yes, you can win a chess game with no pieces except the queen and the king, and even just using your queen, though both would involve the person doing the checkmate to be significantly superior to the other player (with the exception of the queen being from a promoted pawn, in which case the players can be almost equal). But that's digressing.

I think the chess analogy is apt in one particular way: SBR members are really just better members of the community. The queen, while powerful, is still a piece; two rooks, in the standard way of analyzing the material on the board, are actually (barely) more powerful. That being said, the queen is clearly the most powerful piece on the board, and can leverage its power to the greatest effect. So long as the queen is on the board, it is almost always fundamental to a player's attack.

Do keep in mind, though, that the queen (the SBR) is not always perfect. They come from the general community and are really just the best parts of that community. They are still flawed, but are perhaps the least flawed members, and so will be the core of which side wins the debate. The only exception would be if the queen stands against a multitude of other pieces, in which case it can still be captured. If the SBR refuses to go along with the community, things won't be pretty for either side. Not that the community (or the SBR) really has made up its mind for that to be important.

Ooh, a fellow tourney player. What's your rating?

It is a debate, nothing will be settled, both sides will be presented, and then whoever is listening can make decisions based on what they felt was more compelling.

This.

 

[Crizthakidd]

you should get a few more opinions especially top MK players,

i only met m2k once and he said he doenst want mk banned or should be... yet.

(my opinion now ) give it a another year to see if hes insanely god tier.

 

[Luigi player]

This will be really interesting. I can't wait ^^

 

[Aznpkilla]

I'm really looking forward to listening to this. It should be really interesting. :D

 

[petrie911]

Will there be a transcript provided? It will make it much easier to find specific things in the debate than having to go through an audio file.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Then that begs the question: Why play the game Competitively if all of most of what you like about it is the fanservice that allows you to play as your favourite Nintendo characters (since it takes money, dedication, practice, time, etc.)?

Simple: Because you like competition! Fan-service and competition need not be mutually exclusive.


About the podcast, they should really quote some of the posts made on the boards as topics to center the discussion around. I'm sure they'll do that anyway, but as someone mentioned the need to include other big names in the discussion, the best solution is to quote them, eh?

 

[∫unk]

In response to Yuna from ~page 3:

If Meta Knight so so good he's not reasonably beatable and so easy to pick up and any number of reasons, how come how the EC Metas don't emulate their WC (I don't know which coast is currently the one plagued by Metas, but I'll assume it's the WC) counterparts? What, they just don't want to win?

Sarcasm doesn't impress me. Stupid questions won't be addressed.

And how come the EC players can combat their Metas so well but their WC counterparts cannot? I mean, shouldn't the WC players emulate the EC players in their anti-MEtas strategies?

There can be a variety of reasons for that. Perhaps the best WC players are playing Metaknight, giving off a feeling that he is unstoppable when it's really just the players. Perhaps WC metagame isn't as far along as EC.

I can assure you that any WC non-meta main that wants to win is seriously studying how these EC players are dismantling top Metaknights.

Clearly, you cannot just go "The metagames are so different". The game has been programmed. It will never be patched. We do not hack it for Competitive play, thus unless either side is playing it "wrong", either Meta's not at all "too good" or it's too early to tell as there are regions where Meta, somehow, isn't dominating.

The metagames are different. This is fact. I'm not sure what part of this you don't understand. It's already been proven to affect the SBR members from their respective regions.

If you're suggesting one metagame is more advanced than another... This will always be true, but it's usually not so much that an issue such as character power is in question.

 

[5ive]

Can't wait to watch this!

 

[ph00tbag]

Heh, you guys better be careful when you make chess analogies, I WILL catch you if you slip up.

In the tournament chess scene, if you lose your queen for no compensation(or not enough), be it positional or material, your chances of winning the game are virtually none. Most people resign at that point. I'm willing to bet there's several people in your area that, if they were given a queen handicap, they could beat the world champion. It's seriously that decisive. If you lose several other pieces, sure, it does come out to be more important than the queen. Don't think of a piece's value changing because other pieces aren't on the board, it's not as simple as that.

Not saying your idea is wrong, it just isn't a good analogy.

And yes, I've promoted pawns plenty of times before. It's not too uncommon. And they weren't always queens

I think he's suggesting more that there is a conceivable scenario, which can be logically derived from the starting position and which involves losing a queen, where checkmate can be achieved. Such scenarios, while rare, are possible, if improbable. On the other hand, it is impossible to achieve checkmate only with the queen.

 

[Yuna]

Simple: Because you like competition! Fan-service and competition need not be mutually exclusive.

The person I was replying to specifically said that were it not for the fan service, they would've stopped playing Brawl a long time ago. Which means that Brawl on its own is not enough for him (and those like him, he apparently counts himself as one of many). He's playing a game Competitively merely for the sake of fanservice.

Stuff.

My entire post was to illustrate that:
1) Either the WC isn't doing it "right".
2) It's too early to tell since there's clearly anti-MK strats rampantly not letting MK dominate EC tournaments the way they're dominating the WC tournaments.

Considering how at least two of the U.S. very best Meta Knights lives on the EC, it's pretty safe to say it's not because of a lack of good Meta Knights on their part.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol but those two guys win whenever they go to tourneys (i assume youre talking about M2K and spam)

 

[LuigiKing]

Umm... is it me or is Yuna making himself look like a total **** here? Shadowlink made a basic analogy and Yuna is giving him endless hell for it. Whatever.

Anyway I'm going to listen to this podcast for sure. I just want to be able to hear OS and AZ argue in real time and (hopefully) stay on topic.

 

[revengeska]

I think he's suggesting more that there is a conceivable scenario, which can be logically derived from the starting position and which involves losing a queen, where checkmate can be achieved. Such scenarios, while rare, are possible, if improbable. On the other hand, it is impossible to achieve checkmate only with the queen.

I thought someone might make this point, but I ruled it out as a suggestion. The problem is that when you make the analogy comparing chess to smash, you carry over the notion that losing SBR would cripple the smash community. The community has a small chance of surviving, but it's not very good, and practical reasoning says they're doomed. Both posters were making the exact opposite point, which is why I ruled out this meaning.

And I'm not on the same wavelength as you as far as the queen checkmating goes. A legal chess game ALWAYS has both kings on the board, and a king + queen CAN checkmate the opponent. Technically if the queen and the opponent's king were the only pieces left on the board, then no, the queen couldn't checkmate. However I don't see this as chess anymore, as it's not legal and outside the rules. There ARE many instances though where the queen(as well as other pieces) can be the sole opposing piece causing a checkmate(fool's mate anyone?).

 

[hippyman69]

It's 'Jesus'. Your spelling on 'people' is also incorrect.

Anyways, I will definitely have to watch this.
Should be interesting. : )

dude, stfu and dont be a smart ***. it's called abbreviating. it's just annoying when you see ppl use a completely incorrect word as if they had no primary school education b4 coming onto these boards.
they're/their/there, wear/where, your/you're etc. affect/effect -> pisses me off the most. LEARN IT PEOPLE!!!!

 

[IvanEva]

1.The person I was replying to specifically said that were it not for the fan service, they would've stopped playing Brawl a long time ago. Which means that Brawl on its own is not enough for him (and those like him, he apparently counts himself as one of many). He's playing a game Competitively merely for the sake of fanservice.

2. Only the senate actually governed Rome.

1. That's correct. The gameplay by itself would not have held my interests for the years that it has if it wasn't for the Nintendo characters. It's not that I don't like it (obviously I do) but I wouldn't have stayed with it if it wasn't for the Nintendo guys. Of course, the same holds true for the inverse: if it was Nintendo characters in a bad game I wouldn't have stayed either. However, since it IS Brawl game mechanics AND Nintendo fanservice, here I am. I think it's safe to say that I'm not alone in that. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you but it certainly does to a lot of other people (as can be seen in various post, especially those while the games were in development).

2. And for them to have done that they must have had the support of their citizens. A governing body only functions when people accept them in their authoritive positon. When a majority accepts an authority, the majority are then shunned.

On topic: Are the debaters all going to be from the same area? The posts here talking about the differences between East and West players seem to suggest that the debate would be best if it had players from both, if possible.

 

[Mortimer]

dude, stfu and dont be a smart ***. it's called abbreviating. it's just annoying when you see ppl use a completely incorrect word as if they had no primary school education b4 coming onto these boards.
they're/their/there, wear/where, your/you're etc. affect/effect -> pisses me off the most. LEARN IT PEOPLE!!!!

Dude, you shouldn't let grammar errors affect you so much.

 

[Overswarm]

hairy nuts son! in yo mouf!!

but yah isn't overswarm a noob in brawl? why is he pro-ban?? is it because he sucks at the matchup?? someone inform me prz.

Boy, I will mess you up.

 

[∫unk]

Umm... is it me or is Yuna making himself look like a total **** here? Shadowlink made a basic analogy and Yuna is giving him endless hell for it. Whatever.

Anyway I'm going to listen to this podcast for sure. I just want to be able to hear OS and AZ argue in real time and (hopefully) stay on topic.

Yuna has nothing else to do over there isn't that obvious.

 

[Yuna]

Umm... is it me or is Yuna making himself look like a total **** here? Shadowlink made a basic analogy and Yuna is giving him endless hell for it. Whatever.

Anyway I'm going to listen to this podcast for sure. I just want to be able to hear OS and AZ argue in real time and (hopefully) stay on topic.

You didn't pay attention when it was posted.

It was just a cluster-intercourse of repeating what I'd just said in the post he just quoted, hot off the presses of Shadowlink having just declared that one should try to keep posts and analogies as simple as possible here on Smashboards.

1. That's correct. The gameplay by itself would not have held my interests for the years that it has if it wasn't for the Nintendo characters. It's not that I don't like it (obviously I do) but I wouldn't have stayed with it if it wasn't for the Nintendo guys. Of course, the same holds true for the inverse: if it was Nintendo characters in a bad game I wouldn't have stayed either. However, since it IS Brawl game mechanics AND Nintendo fanservice, here I am. I think it's safe to say that I'm not alone in that. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you but it certainly does to a lot of other people (as can be seen in various post, especially those while the games were in development).

The question is: Are they playing this Competitively instead of just frequently? Competitive play takes money, dedication, time, pie, travel, cookies, training and chicken, after all. To do all of this for a game which on its own isn't good enough to make you keep playing it were it not for the fanservice sounds like something quite uncommon to me.

Random people talking about Smash on SWF =/= People who play the game Competitively.

2. And for them to have done that they must have had the support of their citizens. A governing body only functions when people accept them in their authoritive positon. When a majority accepts an authority, the majority are then shunned.

The key difference being that the SBR doesn't govern anyone.

 

[The Slayer]

Why do I have a feeling that this podcast is not going to do so well? Ugh, but I guess it is worth it to hear about the points from both sides it seems.

 

[Iwan]

Edrees is going to destroy this debate.

Look forward to hearing this though.

 

[crewster]

Panda, aren't you and Youko in it?

 

[-Mars-]

This should be good, I look forward to it.

 

[frdagaa]

Ooh, a fellow tourney player. What's your rating?

1550, but I have only played one tournament in the past year (my rating went up 80 points then). So I may be underrated.

And yeah, I laughed at the fool's mate thing, too. I think people should just drop the chess analogy, it's been taken further than it actually applies.

 

[Nintendevil]

For the love of god it's too early.

 

[Flayl]

I want to see (rather hear) how many facts (both with quotes and without) haven't been brought up yet... I'm guessing not that many?

 

[CaliburChamp]

It's nothing new, its going to be about the same stuff they talk about in which we see in all ban metaknight topics.
Its not interesting to me, its all the same ****.