What SBR Members Think of Metaknight (DL UP!)

[DKKountry]

This is further ****ing when you consider the fact that (IIRC) many of the U.S. best Meta Knights live in the East Coast. So why are the East Coastians better at combating Meta Knight? Oh, maybe because they play against good Metas so much and instead of whining about him they've actually set out to develop an anti-MK metagame.

Yea, there's no point maining MK here because you're eventually going to have to go up against some of the best MKs around. MK dittos just aren't as even over here. It works on the same principle that nobody tries real hard to beat ChuDat with Icies since he knows they're spacing etc. inside and out. Better off picking another character.

Disclaimer: IMHO

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wrong.

WC only has DSF and some norcal/WA Mk's and that it. EC has Azen, Plank, M2K, and a few more and those are the dominant ones period.

Azen = Lucario. EC has: m2k, forte, inui, omni, plank, shadow, chillin; But they also have lots of other players doing well without (and despite) MK: Bum, Snakeee, Candy, Afro Thundah, Azen, Atomsk, Black Walz, Pierce7d, Ninja Link, Reflex, ...

WC has the best falco,

sk92? He's not the single best. There's also Sethlon and he's not from the WC

rob,

I'm curious, who you're referring to...

wario,

Futile isn't the best. there's also Reflex and DMG and neither of them lives on the WC

snake,

OK, I'll give you that but Afro Thundah isn't much worse than DSF and Snake is overall rather underplayed on the EC (although I heard m2k plays him sometimes....)

marth,

Please don'T tell me, that you mean MikeHAZE because that would be ridicoulus. HRnut is at least as good and he plays on the EC (Idk where Roy_R is from though....)

peach, sheik,

I can accept Peach but Sheik...?

and G&W(arguably)

Texas =/= WC (If you mean Hylian). If you mean somebody else at least Needle Of Juntah is better and OBM too - and he's from Massachusets.


So the only things you're realyy spot on are: Peach and Snake. Everything else is wrong because they're from another region (GnW) or becuase they aren't the single best. If you look at the EC:

They have the best Lucario (Azen), King Dedede (Atomsk), Diddy Kong (Ninja Link), Donkey Kong (Bum), Zero Suit Samus (Snakeee), Pit (Danny), Wolf (Candy), Olimar (Black Walz / Atomsk), Kirby (ChuDat), Mario (Boss), Luigi (Boss), Pokemon trainer (lol Reflex) and have top Snakes (Afro Thundah), arguably the best Wario (Reflex), top GnWs (OBM) and good Marths (HRnut) + a very good ROB (toasty)

The best Pikachu (Anther), GnW (either Hylian or NoJ), Toon Link (Santi) and of course MK himself (m2k) are all not from the west coast but either from Texas or MidWest.

Falco, Wario, Marth and ROB are not undisputed so most of you claims are either wrong exagerrations.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

I hope those 4 can debate well. The fate of the competitive smash community rest on their shoulder. No pressure. Good luck.

Indead no pressure. Because you are not right.
The fate of the competive Smash community does NOT rest on their shoulders.

 

[Plairnkk]

mow?

mk players are doomed :DDD

at least they have overswarm

hes quite the tard

 

[ZeroFox]

Wow, this seems like a very interesting debate. Will check it out.

 

[hippyman69]

This is epic. I love debates. I love smash. I love podcast. Now their all combined to epic proportions.

It's 'they're'. jesus, you ppl and your crappy spelling and grammar.

 

[Circio]

Please don'T tell me, that you mean MikeHAZE because that would be ridicoulus. HRnut is at least as good and he plays on the EC (Idk where Roy_R is from though....)

I'm pretty sure Roy_R is from Texas (a.k.a. not WC)

This seems like a good idea. It will definitely help to get some solid opinions on the topic out into the open. Like a couple others have said, while it may not end the debate outright, this could definitely result in enough opinions being swayed one way or another to lead to the end of this discussion.

 

[IvanEva]

Indead no pressure. Because you are not right.
The fate of the competive Smash community does NOT rest on their shoulders.

Unfortunately, it does rest on their shoulders. The Smash Back Room has been almost completely adopted (or self-appointed) by the community at large to be the leaders and decision makers for competitive Smash. Their influence in the competitive Smash community is huge which is interesting as you'll never find anything like that for any other fighting game. I guess that's a result of Smash having to be so heavily modified from its default settings.

While I can see the use of the SBR standardizing rulesets and such, I really don't like their elitist approach to hiding their discussions (as they DO affect the community as a whole) as well as the worship they get from a lot of people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Unfortunately, it does rest on their shoulders. The Smash Back Room has been almost completely adopted (or self-appointed) by the community at large to be the leaders and decision makers for competitive Smash. Their influence in the competitive Smash community is huge which is interesting as you'll never find anything like that for any other fighting game. I guess that's a result of Smash having to be so heavily modified from its default settings.

While I can see the use of the SBR standardizing rulesets and such, I really don't like their elitist approach to hiding their discussions (as they DO affect the community as a whole) as well as the worship they get from a lot of people.

No it doesn't, get off their ****.
They are a group with absolutely no ties to anyone.
They do not control anything.
Whatever they say is whatever they say.
it was amazing that anyone listened to them in the beginning.
The only reason we do so now is because we trust them on good faith that their decisions are the best ones. Mind you the BEST ones not the RIGHT ones.

Nothing that occurs within the smash community is mandated or must be followed.
it is either followed or it not followed.
They state this themselves.

Again if the SBR says "MK should be banned" It doesn't mean the TO's will ban MK. it just means the SBR doesn't beleive MK should be banned.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

interesting

 

[Sesshomuronay]

interesting

 

[ShadowLink84]

interesting

interesting

Two stupid people for the price of one reply!

 

[xYz]

hairy nuts son! in yo mouf!!

but yah isn't overswarm a noob in brawl? why is he pro-ban?? is it because he sucks at the matchup?? someone inform me prz.

 

[Lord Yawgmoth]

It's 'they're'. jesus, you ppl and your crappy spelling and grammar.

It's 'Jesus'. Your spelling on 'people' is also incorrect.



Anyways, I will definitely have to watch this.
Should be interesting. : )

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

No one's forced to listen to the SBR but we do. Why? Because only the best and brightest get admitted into the SBR. And when they write rules, they will have done so only after extensive debate, using relevant facts and experiments and having had in-depth looks into everything instead of knee-jerk decisions based merely on personal preference.

This is why they words hold merit. Because they would never let personal preference shape the ruleset of Smash (well, some of them would, but I have no respect for them). They will ban/not ban/allow/bake whatever they feel is "right" for the rules.

No, "best" does not automatically mean "most knowledgeable". But I'd pretty sure the SBR overlords don't listen to people spewing random stuff in the SBR even if their name were M2K. If M2K claimed Peach was Top Tier tomorrow without being able to back it up, the SBR wouldn't randomly consider Peach Top Tier, they'd shoot him down and belittle him or something.

The most knowledgeable Brawlers are in the SBR. Not all SBR:ers are knowledgeable and not all of the most knowledgeable are in the SBR but when it comes to debates such as "What should be in the rules", you can bet your behind these people are involved and their words weigh more than the words of less knowledgeable people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

hairy nuts son! in yo mouf!!

but yah isn't overswarm a noob in brawl? why is he pro-ban?? is it because he sucks at the matchup?? someone inform me prz.

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[ShadowLink84]

No one's forced to listen to the SBR but we do. Why? Because only the best and brightest get admitted into the SBR. And when they write rules, they will have done so only after extensive debate, using relevant facts and experiments and having had in-depth looks into everything instead of knee-jerk decisions based merely on personal preference.

This is why they words hold merit. Because they would never let personal preference shape the ruleset of Smash (well, some of them would, but I have no respect for them). They will ban/not ban/allow/bake whatever they feel is "right" for the rules.

I had a feeling someone would bring this up.
What I said is the gist of things.
It was assumed that everyone knows that the SBR is a collection of the most knowledgeable peolpe in smash and that much fo their arguments is founded and been supported very well.

Think of it this way.
You have the King (TO's)
The citizens (players)
and Advisers (SBR).

The king's will listen to their advisers but that does not mean they will follow them.
For example, if the SBR were to demand MK's banning TO's do not have to follow them.
By no means does this change the fac tthat the SBR is filled with some of the most intelligent [people concerning Smash. However, the authority that people believe they wield is non-existent.
The TO's and Players follow what the SBR states because that they say often is the best for competitive play.

What I am getting at is that the TO's are not held by any mandate to follow what the SBR says.
What they say is very well founded, but by no means do we have to follow them. hence my main point about not having to follow their advice. No one is arguing their credentials.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

What part of "no one is forced to listen to the SBR" was too hard for you to comprehend?

 

[ShadowLink84]

What part of "no one is forced to listen to the SBR" was too hard for you to comprehend?

Wait what?
My first post stated we do not have to listen to the SBR so why are you making such a silly statement?

 

[Yuna]

Wait what?
My first post stated we do not have to listen to the SBR so why are you making such a silly statement?

Did you even bother to read the post you quoted and argued against?

I said:
No one is forced to listen to the SBR, but they do.

And then I went on to explain the reasons for why they do. What did you reply with? A post implying that I just said that everyone is forced to listen to the SBR and laying down exactly what I just said about the reasons for why people listen to the SBR, plus the fact that people are free not to listen to them (which I also said).

So you just retyped what I said, only with a different wording.

 

[metalmonstar]

Of course the statement is an exaggeration, but not exactly far from the truth. You can bet people will be tuning in to watch to see how this debate turns out. There will be those listening to see who has the better argument. Some may be convinced to flip sides. You don't think that the results of this debate will have any effect on competitive smash?

I can bet that if the anti ban side wins the debate then those who were against it the whole time, will be like, "Told you so." "We were right." "Learn to play." and so on.

The same goes for if the pro ban side wins. If the pro ban side wins then there will most likely be those crying for Tournament organizers to set up tournaments were MK is banned.

Whether ot noy metaknight gets banned because of this or not is really up to the tournament organizers, but if the SBR says he is ban worthy then people will listen, not everyone mind you.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Did you even bother to read the post you quoted and argued against?

I said:
No one is forced to listen to the SBR, but they do.

And then I went on to explain the reasons for why they do. What did you reply with? A post implying that I just said that everyone is forced to listen to the SBR and laying down exactly what I just said about the reasons for why people listen to the SBR, plus the fact that people are free not to listen to them (which I also said).

So you just retyped what I said, only with a different wording.

You are misunderstanding what I am saying.
When you posted it was basically the larger part of what I had stated.
I only gave the basic gist, that we simply are not forced to follow the SBR.

I am not insinuating that you believe we are forced to listen to the SBR.
Nowhere in my post did I ever state that, my post was clarification on my part because of what that I had said in the post you quoted earlier. Since it gave off the idea that there is no reason to listen to the SBR.

It was clarification Yuna not an argument.

 

[Yuna]

You are misunderstanding what I am saying.
When you posted it was basically the larger part of what I had stated.
I only gave the basic gist, that we simply are not forced to follow the SBR.

I am not insinuating that you believe we are forced to listen to the SBR.
Nowhere in my post did I ever state that, my post was clarification on my part because of what that I had said in the post you quoted earlier. Since it gave off the idea that there is no reason to listen to the SBR.

It was clarification Yuna not an argument.

Why did you feel the need to repeat every single thing I'd just stated two posts after I'd just stated it?! Instead of just going "OK, so we're in agreement" or "I don't disagree with that" (because contrary to popular belief, I do not read every single post I see in every single thread I enter).

Never mind the fact that I never disagreed with you to begin with. You said "People are not forced to listen to the SBR". I replied with "No, they aren't. But there's a good reason to." to which you replied with "Let me repeat every single thing Yuna just said, only using an unnecessary analogy" (whatever happened to keeping it simple, like you advocate in that other thread, eh?).

The correct reply to my post would've been something other than quoting me and repeating exactly what I'd said, only in a harder to comprehend way.

 

[frdagaa]

Guys, both of you are agreeing, so there's no real point in further posting on the issue.

I don't think that this particular debate will lead to a consensus for precisely the reasons metalmonstar just noted. I think that, whatever comes out of this, both sides ought to agree to continue to listen to and hold respect for the other side (well, there's not much of that right now, but it should still happen). Both sides need to continue to admit the possibility - however slim they may view it - of being wrong.

That being said, MK should totally be banned.

 

[ShadowLink84]

stuff

Again what I said was for clarification mainly because of the fact that when i had read your initial post, it gave off the idea that I was declaring that there is no reason to listen to the SBR.
If you agreed that's great but I am stating what I said in order to clarify, not to repeat on the argument that we agree on! To give the actual intent of my post not to explicate on it.

 

[Ayaz18]

this should be neat, I really wish M2K was in this debate though...........................

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why? Whenever m2k posts it makes me rub my forehead and go argh.

I am quite sure he is knowledgeable but he doesn't back up his points well enough.

 

[Yuna]

Again what I said was for clarification mainly because of the fact that when i had read your initial post, it gave off the idea that I was declaring that there is no reason to listen to the SBR.

No I didn't. Never once did I state or imply that! I merely said that while no one's forced to listen to them, there's good reason to.

And what clarification? Writing a post reiterating everything I just said, only in harder to understand words?!

If you agreed that's great but I am stating what I said in order to clarify, not to repeat on the argument that we agree on! To give the actual intent of my post not to explicate on it.

"Your reply was bad and you should feel bad!"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why? Whenever m2k posts it makes me rub my forehead and go argh.

I am quite sure he is knowledgeable but he doesn't back up his points well enough.

Does it matter? Few people on SWF do that anyways...

 

[Yuna]

Does it matter? Few people on SWF do that anyways...

Exactly, at least he doesn't talk out of his behind (most of the time), lie or just randomly think something is irrefutable fact if it happens once or twice.

 

[Ulevo]

Think of it this way.
You have the King (TO's)
The citizens (players)
and Advisers (SBR).

If you wanted to relate that metaphor to Chess, TO's would be the King piece as you have claimed. The Citizens would be the other pieces, be it the Pawns, Rooks, Knights, and Bishops. The Advisers, or SBR, would be the Queen.

In Chess, the King is the most important piece. Without it, the game is lost, and the game cannot continue. However, the King does not win you the game, nor ensure the game will continue. Despite it's importance, it does little to shape the game, and does not hold as much power as most of the other pieces on the board.

The other pieces would be the players, or Smash community. You cannot expect to stay in the game without these pieces, despite that they're not as important as the King or Queen. Without them, there would be no King or Queen. The accumulative pieces on the board as a whole are a significant part of the game.

The Queen is the most powerful and influential piece on the board. She is also the second most important piece. With the Queen in play, protecting the King from being overthrown is a much easier task to handle, and thus the Queen has the most influence on the board.


The bottom line is, even if TO's are the blood line of the tournament scene, and the players are an essential part of the game, the SBR holds all the cards. They have the most influence in this game, even more so then the TO's. A good assortment of credible TO's are SBR members actually. It doesn't matter if you think the TO's can simply decide to assign their own rules to the tournament scene. If the SBR, being the super power of our community, does not approve of it, it is very unlikely it will be something that is accepted. They're not just players that have no ties to the community. We as players look up to them for answers, whether we should or shouldn't, because they are the best of the best from one regard to another. Our dependance on their opinions and ideas alone ties us to them. It doesn't matter if you can't accept that, it's the truth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No I didn't. Never once did I state or imply that! I merely said that while no one's forced to listen to them, there's good reason to.

And what clarification? Writing a post reiterating everything I just said, only in harder to understand words?!

I said "We do not have to listen to the SBR just because it is the SBR".
you said " Yeah we do not have to listen to the SBR but we have good reason to do so."

So because of your response, it gave me the idea that you thought I was ignoring those reasons. So I explicated on what I had said earlier to fix it. To clarify the intent of my post. Not to argue against you.

"Your reply was bad and you should feel bad!"

T_T
The truth is not nice.

@gheb: True but I find that when he posts sometimes he needs to add more to what he says because it isn't well supported.

Anecdote

I cut it short but I'll address it I promise!

The bottom line is, even if TO's are the blood line of the tournament scene, and the players are an essential part of the game, the SBR holds all the cards. They have the most influence in this game, even more so then the TO's. A good assortment of credible TO's are SBR members actually. It doesn't matter if you think the TO's can simply decide to assign their own rules to the tournament scene. If the SBR, being the super power of our community, does not approve of it, it is very unlikely it will be something that is accepted. They're not just players that have no ties to the community. We as players look up to them for answers, whether we should or shouldn't, because they are the best of the best from one regard to another. Our dependance on their opinions and ideas alone ties us to them. It doesn't matter if you can't accept that, it's the truth.

I have to disagree.
Your queen is the most powerful and influential piece but as you said earlier, without the rest of the pieces she is nothing.

She needs the other pieces to move accordingly in order to ensure safe capture of the enemies pieces and lay down traps. She relies just heavily upon the doings of the other pieces besides herself.'

if you lose your queen early in a chess game it hurts, but by no means does this guarantee a loss. This is a similar situation with the SBR.
While the SBR is the most influential piece in our chess game, if we lost the SBR we would still be very capable without the piece.

So I disagree, the SBR only gives off the appearance of having that much power only because of everything else. yes it is a very powerful piece by without the other pieces, the TO's, the players, etc etc they cannot accomplish anything,.

You can win a game of chess without your queen but you cannot win a chess game with only your queen. Just as she relies on all the other pieces to enact her power so does the SBR rely on the TO's and players for their power.

I was thinking a medievil society not chess by the way but I like the chess analogy better.

Has anyone ever managed to promote a pawn to queen?

 

[frdagaa]

As a tournament level chess player.... yes, people promote pawns to queens. Yes, you can win a chess game with no pieces except the queen and the king, and even just using your queen, though both would involve the person doing the checkmate to be significantly superior to the other player (with the exception of the queen being from a promoted pawn, in which case the players can be almost equal). But that's digressing.

I think the chess analogy is apt in one particular way: SBR members are really just better members of the community. The queen, while powerful, is still a piece; two rooks, in the standard way of analyzing the material on the board, are actually (barely) more powerful. That being said, the queen is clearly the most powerful piece on the board, and can leverage its power to the greatest effect. So long as the queen is on the board, it is almost always fundamental to a player's attack.

Do keep in mind, though, that the queen (the SBR) is not always perfect. They come from the general community and are really just the best parts of that community. They are still flawed, but are perhaps the least flawed members, and so will be the core of which side wins the debate. The only exception would be if the queen stands against a multitude of other pieces, in which case it can still be captured. If the SBR refuses to go along with the community, things won't be pretty for either side. Not that the community (or the SBR) really has made up its mind for that to be important.

 

[Yuna]

I said "We do not have to listen to the SBR just because it is the SBR".
you said " Yeah we do not have to listen to the SBR but we have good reason to do so."

So because of your response, it gave me the idea that you thought I was ignoring those reasons. So I explicated on what I had said earlier to fix it. To clarify the intent of my post. Not to argue against you.

In what alternate universe does "We do not have to listen to the SBR, but there's good reason to." to "We do not have to listen to the SBR just because it's the SBR" automatically mean that I'm saying that you do not possess the logic to deduce why there's good reasons to? I was merely stating it for the rest.

Also, in what alternate universe is the proper reponse to that "Let me reiterate everything you just said, only in a more convoluted way"?!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats my point though. Winning with the king and queen only would require me to be vastly superior to yourself which is not going to be an often case. (considering its the other way around, I am not too good).

In what alternate universe does "We do not have to listen to the SBR, but there's good reason to." to "We do not have to listen to the SBR just because it's the SBR" automatically mean that I'm saying that you do not possess the logic to deduce why there's good reasons to? I was merely stating it for the rest.

I made my statement then you quoted and replied to it.
That implied that there may or may not be something wrong with my post.
Considering that you added the reasons I had not placed gave off the idea that I should have put them down.
So I quoted you and explained that I had only given a basic gist and explicated on it so that my point would be understood better than what I had earlier stated.

Which then lead to this argument.

Also, in what alternate universe is the proper response to that "Let me reiterate everything you just said, only in a more convoluted way"?!

Wrong you are thinking that when I posted, it was an argument to what was stated which it was not.
I said, yeah I had said this instead of this then explicated concerning my own post. not to your own.

This argument isn't leading us anywhere either.

 

[Yuna]

Thats my point though. Winning with the king and queen only would require me to be vastly superior to yourself which is not going to be an often case. (considering its the other way around, I am not too good).

This has absolutely nothing to do with the TO's, SBR, TourneyGoers -> King, Queen, Pawns, Cupcakes analogy.

 

[Ulevo]

The main point I was trying to get across with the Chess analogy is that, yes, you can win games without the Queen (SBR), and yes, despite being the most powerful (influential) piece on the board (community), she is not totally required... but the fact of the matter is that as long as the Queen (SBR) remains on the board (community), she will have more influence or power at large than any other piece of the game. Even the King (TOs).

The SBR has the communities best interests at hand. On a majority scale, they make the guide lines most of the community follows, because they are the Queen of the board. They pull the strings behind the scenes. Even if a few TO's disagree with the rulings or decisions made, at large most of them won't. To say that we do not have the ban Meta Knight (as TO's) even if SBR advises it is both redundant, common sense, as well as a poor arguing focal point. It will still effect the community by the majority, and that is what matters. No one gives a **** if person "x" in "y" town doesn't ban Meta Knight. People care if "x" amount of people ban Meta Knight in "y" amount of towns. The latter will be effected directly by SBRs decision, not the former, and the latter is what is most important for the tournament scene.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the TO's, SBR, TourneyGoers -> King, Queen, Pawns, Cupcakes analogy.

yeah its incomplete, I can't remember what I was going to say after wards since I am writing a paper at the same time.


Cupcakes<Cookies.

The main point I was trying to get across with the Chess analogy is that, yes, you can win games without the Queen (SBR), and yes, despite being the most powerful (influential) piece on the board (community), she is not totally required... but the fact of the matter is that as long as the Queen (SBR) remains on the board (community), she will have more influence or power at large than any other piece of the game. Even the King (TOs).

I disagree. The extent of her influence by herself is not due to her power.
The rest of the baord pieces are what allow her to flex that influence. The extent to which she can flex that influence is not due to her innate power but only because the other pieces allow or do not allow that influence.

If the queen tries to act out on her own without the other pieces allowing her, she gets destroyed, is lost. This is similar to the SBR. If the SBR were to suddenly be ignored by the community and TO's, the existence of the SBR would not exist. Their influence would be gone as if it never had eben there because the community does not allow that influence.

The SBR has the communities best interests at hand. On a majority scale, they make the guide lines most of the community follows, because they are the Queen of the board. They pull the strings behind the scenes. Even if a few TO's disagree with the rulings or decisions made, at large most of them won't. To say that we do not have to ban Meta Knight (as TO's) even if SBR advises it is both redundant, common sense, as well as a poor arguing focal point. It will still effect the community by the majority, and that is what matters. No one gives a **** if person "x" in "y" town doesn't ban Meta Knight. People care if "x" amount of people ban Meta Knight in "y" amount of towns. The latter will be effected directly by SBRs decision, not the former, and the latter is what is most important for the tournament scene.

I move my queen to D4. What impact does that accomplish? Nothing on its own.
This is the same with the SBR.
You're saying if person X does this in y town it does not matter. This is true.
However person X would be the SBR. They are not the majority and while they speak for whats best for the community, does not necessarily mean everyone else will follow it.

Discussion concerning MK being ban worthy or not occurred BEFORE the SBR started discussing it. If all of a sudden MK was banned in all the regions of the US except for AN and the SBR said MK should not be banned the majority would remain in their banning for MK.

You're assuming that SBR makes statement=TO's follow it. Which is not always the case.
For example the tier list. Does this mean that what they stated is right and that everyone should follow it? No.
In fact when the first tier list came out one of the most popular characters was Link, and he was low on the tier list. This did not affect the tournament behavior. Link saw a large amount of use during that period.

If the SBr suddenly stated that stalling would be classified as 999% when using an infinite, TO's would still maintain the rule of stalling for 300%.
Just like a chess piece they are allowed influence only according to what the community does.

In this community, the SBR has a lot of influence only because we trust in their decisions and follow them. Not because we have to follow them.
People would still reach a common consensus without the SBR.

 

[GofG]

What a stupid community.

I'm dead serious. This is what you get when you get a bunch of teenagers and twenty-somethings who play Nintendo games and try to have them govern themselves.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Aarosmashguy? Thats a unique name.