What SBR Members Think of Metaknight (DL UP!)

[SamuraiPanda]

For those of you who don't know, there is a brand new official SBR podcast starting this Sunday (November 2nd) at 8 pm EST. We will be discussing MK and whether or not he should be banned. If you'd like to hear what we think about MK, tune in to the live stream or download the podcast when its released.

The thread can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201664

Also, the members participating in this debate are:
- Pro-Ban (scheduled): Overswarm, EdreesesPieces
- Non-Ban (scheduled): UmbreonMow, AlphaZealot

DOWNLOAD: http://smyn.smashnexus.net/download.php?id=45

 

[Vyse]

It should be good listenin'

 

[BBQ°]

I was hoping for a wall of text on everything the SBR has discussed about MK when I clicked this, but announcing the podcast in the tactical discussion was a smart move I guess.

 

[metalmonstar]

I hope those 4 can debate well. The fate of the competitive smash community rest on their shoulder. No pressure. Good luck.

 

[brinboy789]

hey panda, i was wondering, which side of the MK debate are most SBRers leaning toward?

 

[DRaGZ]

Why is M2K not there? I feel like the debate has been mainly raging between him and OS.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

hey panda, i was wondering, which side of the MK debate are most SBRers leaning toward?

Sorry, but I can't answer that question right now.

Why is M2K not there? I feel like the debate has been mainly raging between him and OS.

M2K was originally going to join us, but he had to back out for personal reasons. So Umbreon took his place in the debate.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I hope those 4 can debate well. The fate of the competitive smash community rest on their shoulder. No pressure. Good luck.

No it doesn't. They are not gods.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

umbreonmow? isn't it just umbreon?

 

[K 2]

Oh cool. I can't wait to see this debate. *marks calender*

Is it going to be live (with the actual human players showing up), audio (just their voices), or text (like a chat or something)?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The music that plays in that link seems to take a long time to load will that happen with the pod cast?

 

[DRaGZ]

K. Thanks for the explan Mr. Panda...

*thinks of panda stew*

Mmmmmmmm...panda steeeewwwww...

 

[deepseadiva]

Is it going to be live (with the actual human players showing up), audio (just their voices), or text (like a chat or something)?

A podcast is audio.

Looking forward to it.

Sorry, but I can't answer that question right now.

This isn't very transparent. *goes to count colored names in poll*

 

[ftl]

Sorry, but I can't answer that question right now.

I was going into this thread expecting an answer to that question, and at the same time thinking "man, that's such a bad idea." Good to know that my expectations were wrong

 

[Genome Squirrel]

will this be more of the subjective stuff they brought up in the forums
they all posted their opinions, how will this be different

 

[brinboy789]

will this be more of the subjective stuff they brought up in the forums
they all posted their opinions, how will this be different

opinion is worthless in debate. i found out the hard way

Sorry, but I can't answer that question right now.

:\

 

[Vect0r]

It happened already, didn't it?

 

[streetracr77]

That's pretty cool. I want to see that show sometime.

 

[cAm8ooo]

This is epic. I love debates. I love smash. I love podcast. Now their all combined to epic proportions.

 

[Banee]

I think this is a great idea. I would love to see more transparency from the SBR. I never quite understood the point of making it non-viewable, is there something to hide?

 

[Pearl Floatzel]

I think this is a great idea. I would love to see more transparency from the SBR. I never quite understood the point of making it non-viewable, is there something to hide?

Making it viewable results in average members reading one of their discussions, and though they cannot discuss or debate it there, all that a person would do is take it to General, or put a discussion thread in Tactical.

That and it makes them seem more elite. Like they're the ones with all the answers.

And they probably like us clamoring to them for their opinions. Helps distinguish the truly devoted people who have gained access.

And why not?

 

[Deleted member]

will this be more of the subjective stuff they brought up in the forums
they all posted their opinions, how will this be different

I don't post my opinion for SBR debates. Ever.

 

[Banee]

Making it viewable results in average members reading one of their discussions, and though they cannot discuss or debate it there, all that a person would do is take it to General, or put a discussion thread in Tactical.

That and it makes them seem more elite. Like they're the ones with all the answers.

And they probably like us clamoring to them for their opinions. Helps distinguish the truly devoted people who have gained access.

And why not?

While I sympathize with, and to a degree understand, your first point (being a moderator of a similar forum in the past) it would easily be solved by simply adding to the rules something to the effect of "Do not post topics in general/tactical/wherever in response to SBR threads." Sure, at first it would require a bit more work on the mods part (people would surely do this despite the rules), but once they begin to crack down on it people will stop testing the rule and it will be a non issue. So in the short term its a bit more work, but in the long term its not much at all.

There's a difference between being elite and being an elitist. Hiding the SBR from public view is the latter.

Your 3rd point would just be individuals being attention whores.

As for "Why not?" because allowing public access gives players that future rulings will affect a chance to anticipate changes and such. If the things that happen in the SBR only affected SBR members it would be fine to keep it hidden, but it affects the majority of the community, if not all of them. I still see no real drawback to allowing the SBR to be public viewable.

 

[∫unk]

Dunno where Umbreon is from but this seems to be EC v WC again.

The metgames are very different.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sounds exciting. I look forward to this one...

 

[Hive]

wow ^^ sounds really fun, I wouldn't even know who I would be rooting for @.@ mainly I can't wait to see what arguments both sides put together ^^

 

[Napilopez]

Coolio, can't wait!

 

[Hive]

If you guys can't fully come to a conclusion within a half hour in the debate you should have a fight to the death to determine it... I saw it on a movie once and it seemed pretty effective...

 

[Samuelson]

Wow, this should be interesting. I am going to be watching this without a doubt.

 

[Kallinx]

Umbreon is against the ban? He sounded like he wanted it when we played eachother.

 

[Yuna]

Dunno where Umbreon is from but this seems to be EC v WC again.

The metgames are very different.

If Meta Knight so so good he's not reasonably beatable and so easy to pick up and any number of reasons, how come how the EC Metas don't emulate their WC (I don't know which coast is currently the one plagued by Metas, but I'll assume it's the WC) counterparts? What, they just don't want to win?

And how come the EC players can combat their Metas so well but their WC counterparts cannot? I mean, shouldn't the WC players emulate the EC players in their anti-MEtas strategies?

Clearly, you cannot just go "The metagames are so different". The game has been programmed. It will never be patched. We do not hack it for Competitive play, thus unless either side is playing it "wrong", either Meta's not at all "too good" or it's too early to tell as there are regions where Meta, somehow, isn't dominating.

 

[Napilopez]

If Meta Knight so so good he's not reasonably beatable and so easy to pick up and any number of reasons, how come how the EC Metas don't emulate their WC (I don't know which coast is currently the one plagued by Metas, but I'll assume it's the WC) counterparts? What, they just don't want to win?

And how come the EC players can combat their Metas so well but their WC counterparts cannot? I mean, shouldn't the WC players emulate the EC players in their anti-MEtas strategies?

Clearly, you cannot just go "The metagames are so different". The game has been programmed. It will never be patched. We do not hack it for Competitive play, thus unless either side is playing it "wrong", either Meta's not at all "too good" or it's too early to tell as there are regions where Meta, somehow, isn't dominating.

QFT.

And Yuna, the WC is the one that is seeing more MK dominance.

Of course players might incorporate different gameplay styles in different regions, different patterns and whatnot. But if anything, this just goes to show, at least in my opinion, that we still need more time if we are even to decide on the ban. I've seen people use the argument that WC metas are better than EC ones, and other things along those lines, but thats really just a bland argument. Assuming the players of one region are better than those of another is ignorant as best when comparing regions as large as the entire WC or EC. If metaknight is such ban material, then wouldn't he eventually be able to begin dominating in EC the way he is in the WC? Yet so far I don't see any trends showing MKs dominance increasing in the EC... if anything it might be decreasing. This is primarily why I think a significant amount
of time should be given before deciding on a ban. If MK is such a threat to competitive play, then even if different regions exhibit different trends, we should see MK dominating clearly and in monolithic proportions all around the states. Otherwise, I can't see where the ban comes in. Until it is something that is overall agreed upon across the different regions, the claim that MK should be banned doesn't hold as strongly. We all have the same game, afterall.

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

This is further ****ing when you consider the fact that (IIRC) many of the U.S. best Meta Knights live in the East Coast. So why are the East Coastians better at combating Meta Knight? Oh, maybe because they play against good Metas so much and instead of whining about him they've actually set out to develop an anti-MK metagame.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Or east coast sucks...
*runs*

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

QFT.

And Yuna, the WC is the one that is seeing more MK dominance.
.

Wrong.

WC only has DSF and some norcal/WA Mk's and that it. EC has Azen, Plank, M2K, and a few more and those are the dominant ones period.

WC has the best falco, rob, wario, snake, marth, peach, sheik, and G&W(arguably)

 

[frdagaa]

The problem with the position of Yuna (et al) is that you're straw manning the argument for the ban. Yuna, I've seen you repeatedly talk about the problems missing the points of other debates (such as the All Brawl discussion). You seem to be one of the most intelligent posters on these forums, so I know you recognize the problems of straw manning.

The argument for the ban is that there are a number of factors which all contribute to a degeneration of the metagame. MK being the best character is just one of them, and probably the weakest. "Best" characters will arise in darn near every game, ever, and we know that; it's something people have come to accept. The problem is that when you combine that with the problems he introduces to the cp system and the fact that the current metagame revolves around him, the result is a less healthy community. You may discount some of these factors by not agreeing with their importance, but that's when it comes down to opinion.

I think this podcast will do a good job of bringing together the intelligent arguments for both sides (I hope), instead of the current threads which are 95% full of fallacious arguments. Hopefully it will make matters more clear. I'll be waiting.

 

[Ulevo]

I cannot express my opinion for Umbreon. I have no clue as to who he is excluding the fact that he is a forum moderator like AZ. But as for AZ, despite his communicative skills and his ability to debate, I really feel he's walking in to this blind folded in some ways. From the posts I've witnessed, he is knowledgeable about Meta Knight as a character to an extent, but not one I am sure would be valuable enough to properly argue for his character ban. I do not know what the fundamentals of this debate will come down to, but it would really help to have an expert on Meta Knight as a character participate in this debate in order to properly decide an outcome.

I am not saying AZ cannot do the job, don't get me wrong. I like the guy. I just hope you MiB in the back room there didn't pick names out of a hat or pick random volunteers, considering the weight of the decision being made here.

 

[revengeska]

Sounds cool, I'll have to tune in. I haven't played in any out-of-state tournaments, so I really haven't experienced any MK dominance, but I can speak about where I live. In Minnesota, as early as this summer(when I started playing brawl tournaments) there were a LOT of MK players in the tournaments. We're not the best state when it come to smash, but we don't get very many MKs placing high, certainly not as many considering the ratio. I think we have a single MK player in the top 10 of our brawl power rankings(there's possibly others who 2nd him, but none really stand out as relying on MK in tournaments).

 

[revengeska]

I cannot express my opinion for Umbreon. I have no clue as to who he is excluding the fact that he is a forum moderator like AZ. But as for AZ, despite his communicative skills and his ability to debate, I really feel he's walking in to this blind folded in some ways. From the posts I've witnessed, he is knowledgeable about Meta Knight as a character to an extent, but not one I am sure would be valuable enough to properly argue for his character ban. I do not know what the fundamentals of this debate will come down to, but it would really help to have an expert on Meta Knight as a character participate in this debate in order to properly decide in outcome.

I am not saying AZ cannot do the job, don't get me wrong. I like the guy. I just hope you MiB in the back room there didn't pick names out of a hat or pick random volunteers, considering the weight of the decision being made here.

It was mentioned already that M2K was originally going to be on the podcast, so I think they had that idea to have him on as a good MK player. Of course, perhaps that misses the point as he would've argued against the character ban. In any case, I don't think the weight of the decision is going to rest on this debate. SBR is probably waging a war over the issue in there and I see this as more of a public service to bring good opinions into an open forum, instead of making this the end of the whole debate.

Edit: Oops, sorry for the double post -_-;

 

[Ulevo]

It was mentioned already that M2K was originally going to be on the podcast, so I think they had that idea to have him on as a good MK player. Of course, perhaps that misses the point as he would've argued against the character ban. In any case, I don't think the weight of the decision is going to rest on this debate. SBR is probably waging a war over the issue in there and I see this as more of a public service to bring good opinions into an open forum, instead of making this the end of the whole debate.

Edit: Oops, sorry for the double post -_-;

Verbal form of communication is much more powerful than written. It won't be just the public forums listening in to this podcast, it will be other SBR members too, who will/are participating in the debate. The possibility for this debate to change not just the opinions of us, but the opinions of them, is not out of the question at all, and can happen very easily with proper verbal skills and a little persuasion.

This is not just a public service to the community. This is much more serious then that. I highly doubt the debate will be the end all be all of the topic on banning Meta Knight, but it will be a very vital part in it, and may be the core factor that makes or breaks decisions.