VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So atma does it matter if you di fox's up throw behind or in front of him? In the vid you did both any idea if one is better?

 

[darkatma]

So atma does it matter if you di fox's up throw behind or in front of him? In the vid you did both any idea if one is better?

I personally have a habit of DIing in front of him usually. When given more time, I'll try to DI behind. I don't think it actually matters which side you DI on though, it's more important that you do DI full left or right, and that you switch it up so they have to work harder to react.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

A friend of my theorized that di'ing behind fox is the best option b/c of the time it takes fox to turn around, but i am much happier hearing ether way works and you can mix it up.

About stopping fox's dthrow tech chase up smash with a jab. Does this mean it is almost always best to tech so you would be facing fox after a dthrow (lets assume you are being thrown in the center of fd)

 

[darkatma]

Eh I kinda wanna go back on my statement earlier.. the jab is very situationally good, but oftentimes it might be more risky than just shielding.

I dunno, I personally have never done it and was just theorycrafting about jabbing the upsmash before it comes out.

I'll test it out later and come back with info

 

[Rosedemon]

I think its being taken as the end all be all of stopping the tech chase upsmash and thats not how it works.

You need to mix these things up.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Of course mixing up is almost always the best idea, but i did have a friend help me practice jabbing the upsmash and it seemed to work. The only issue was this friend of mine is not a fox main so there is a chance is spaceing was not perfect.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Shield, sidestep, and jab are the best things for stopping an up smash tech chase (if the Fox is off... obviously if he's on then none of this works at all).

 

[ShroudedOne]

Looks like I'm never dying to uthrow > uair again, haha. Thanks, all.

My general positining in neutral vs Fox still kinda sucks, though, but that comes with experience, I guess.

I like playing around with purposely missing the tech, because it sometimes throws people off. I have no illusion that this works on good people/people who react well, though. In any case, I always thought that dthrow > techchase upsmash didn't work on her on reaction. I thought you had to call the roll.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think it depends largely on stage positioning.

 

[darkatma]

yeah, I wasn't aware that dthrow->upsmash worked at all, except when you have peach trapped in the center of a platform or near the ledge (where she doesn't slide off from the DI)

I think peach's techroll is too lengthy/quick.. but someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to see frame data too if possible

 

[john!]

frame data involving techs should take into account the reaction time needed to read the tech (unless you're assuming the opponent correctly guesses your tech, in which case i'm pretty sure fox can land a usmash regardless of where you tech)

 

[Xyzz]

Throw release is 11 frames before Fox's first actionable frame, peach's tech roll is 40 Frames in duration (like pretty much everything), the uncharged up smash hits on frame 7, and shield takes another 2 frames to come out (I think).
We therefore deduce that frame perfect correct guessing Fox has 24 frames to dash the distance and perform an jc upsmash.

According to this (http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/516492-super-smash-bros-melee/faqs/16680) Fox's run speed is at 43.6 feet per second, so in 24 frames he can cover about 17.5 feet, and Magus clocks the techroll of Peach at 15.4ft forward (I think it's pretty fair to assume that the extra distance by being somewhere in front of fox at the throw and up smash range cancel each other out).

So, it seems it is doable, if you don't miss more than three frames in the execution (dashing right on the first actionable frame, no time spent charging up smash, no time spent in the jump start of the jump cancel (I am not sure whether you have to drop a frame here :x)).

If you're trying to do it reactionally, it will be really hard. The thing you can react to is the start of horizontal movement, which is at 8 frames for a forward and 9 frames for a backward roll. Normal human reaction times are somewhere in the 10 frames ballpark (some incredible individuals could get 9 (that is .15 seconds)). While you do spent most of that time in the ending of your throw animation anyways (11 frames, so you might actually be able to react faster than you can actually perform any action), it's probably still very taxing, since that horizontal movement stuff is pretty muddy at best (:


Yay, useless theory crafting that could've been handily done with real life tests :D

edit: source of the Tech and Throw frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206469 (<3 Magus )

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

So what do you guys do when falco is on the ledge? I find i try to predict the jump/get up with a dash attack which often leads to a dsmash kill but its not really a good option when the opponent sees it coming/is good.

Also vs fox and falco i have been trying to use upb oos more and it seems to be going well ( superfluous info)

 

[Mike G]

Heimie taught Mike G how to play Peach, like how Prometheus brought man fire

O_o

I was KrazyJones/Hein. I thought I made that very clear, Landon. lol




Edit. super late reply lol

Heimie is the first peach to ever exist though lol

 

[Xyzz]

So what do you guys do when falco is on the ledge? I find i try to predict the jump/get up with a dash attack which often leads to a dsmash kill but its not really a good option when the opponent sees it coming/is good.

Also vs fox and falco i have been trying to use upb oos more and it seems to be going well ( superfluous info)

I mostly use fair and try to cover most of the options I think my opponent will most likely take.
If you whiff / mistime it, you can still often get something going due to (almost) non existant landing lag

 

[knightpraetor]

"If you're trying to do it reactionally, it will be really hard. The thing you can react to is the start of horizontal movement, which is at 8 frames for a forward and 9 frames for a backward roll. Normal human reaction times are somewhere in the 10 frames ballpark (some incredible individuals could get 9 (that is .15 seconds)). While you do spent most of that time in the ending of your throw animation anyways (11 frames, so you might actually be able to react faster than you can actually perform any action), it's probably still very taxing, since that horizontal movement stuff is pretty muddy at best (:
"

nice to know, i sometimes drop it..i thought i was just bad..but .18 reaction time is no joke..i can't do that 100%

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I mostly use fair and try to cover most of the options I think my opponent will most likely take.
If you whiff / mistime it, you can still often get something going due to (almost) non existant landing lag

I dont think that works b/c falco can get on the stage with lasers, and if u r trying to fair there is a very good chance you are going to be hit then falco combo

 

[ShroudedOne]

I just float under/inside of a platform and wait to see how he gets on. I try to float high enough so that if he double lasers from the ledge (which I still don't think is that good), I won't get lasered, while still being able to punish him, while at the same time being low enough to not miss a punish.

Shielding on the ledge is ok, sometimes, too.

 

[Rosedemon]

You can kinda just sit there and wait for some to do something.

Rolls and standups are easy to read, and if tries to get up with a get-up attack you can hear him make a noise first and react.

If they get up with an attack you can shield and then OOS something or back off.

If they get up with double lasers I just double jab them back.

 

[PMsurveys]

Hi : D
I've been maining peach for about 3 months now. I was wondering if you could give me some advice vs falcon. I'm pretty new to the match up, since most of my time has been vs spacies, which I do fine against since there's tons of watchable material of high level peach vs spacies, so I've had a lot of help from analysing them.

Is it better to wait around for falcon to come to you, or should I try to work him to run away a bit and try to get him in a corner, or is this the sort of match up where you can do both/
Is it worth it to try to do weird spot dodges while holding down to try to counter grab, minorly delayed dairs, and nairs? I haven't experimented much but I think the biggest issue there would be that falcon's dairs are easy to time to **** spot dodges lol.

Low floating bairs are only good vs nair, right? Dair will go over top of it, right? Is there any useful spacing of bair that allows you to have decent defense vs nair and dair?

Is it good to camp the ledge? Gives falcon less room to combo, right?


Also a question about peach vs fox's dair. My friends are very good at punishing the tiny lag of things like FC fairs that I use to try to bait their approaches. Are there any ways you know to counter fox's dair decently? The one's I've been using are jab and hold down to trade with dair, then Dsmash after, and also jump and hold forwards so you can ASDI behind fox and dsmash him during dair's lag.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Floating fair lower to the ground than normal is pretty good vs Falcon as far as I can tell. And by pretty good I mean I think it's better than floating it at the normal defensive float heights (normally we use some of the highest float heights to defend from ground moves and stuff... but Falcon's a heavy aerial fighter [and space animal SHFFLs are basically just super powerful ground moves - let's be honest here]).

Otherwise the goal is to dash attack his nairs, turnip when he commits from far enough away, and look for his double jumps to go around you and stuff his actions in any way you can. Be really good out of shield, as usual. I'm not sure if you can CC punish between any of the hits of the gentleman but that would probably be good to know. Until then, get used to waiting a bit before acting OOS (once the gentleman finishes, that's your action window basically).

I'm liking bair less and less against Falcon. He's always jumping around you and bair seems more designed to hit people below you. And it's so slow... not really ideal for challenging a dash dance camp. I mean, it can work... but seems flimsy overall. Then again, I have trouble committing in general so maybe someone else should field this one.

I don't like spot-dodge vs dairs and stuff. For basically the reason you said. I'm not even sure Peach can consistently punish Falcon stomp if he does it into a sidestep if he hits the l-cancel anyway. I think you'll have more luck by attacking him with initiative (so, some kind of nair) if you notice him working around your shield or crouch (or what have you) like that.

I don't know about camping the ledge. I've never tried that style with Peach. I would imagine the trade off in combo room comes at the cost of having nowhere to DI a knee when he gets a grab (or if he just lands a knee / stomp, which is probable - also, his shield pressure is all 'push' style so that might incur some trouble if he forces you onto the ledge or simply pops you up for a combo). Coupled with her lack of a good b-throw game, and how DIable down smash is (easy to avoid being sent offstage from it in that position if they know it's coming), I don't see the point. That said, I could be overlooking something so it might be worth looking into.

I think Peach functions best by holding the middle of the stage, in a very general sense. And I don't feel that fighting Falcon really changes this. By being in the middle you get access to your CG, you have a lot of reach with your veggies (they can attack basically the entire relevant sections of the stage), and so forth.

 

[Xyzz]

Yeah, you really want to stay low against falcon.

Giving him the opportunity to use up air from anywhere below is pretty bad for Peach, since it will handily beat just about anything we can throw out (fair can still trade, but is flunky at best, and it will only last for a moment and have the lengthy startup and everthing... ).
Plus it can combo in a lot of nastiness...

Big part of the battle imho is to guess what he will do... if he jumps and you can catch him with a dash attack, go for it. That's pretty much our best move against Falcon, since it will usually beat out his aerial stuff and in turn set up for some fun stuff like our chaingrab / some aerials. If we believe he's expecting the dash attack, we can also go for some groundfloated aerials, though we need to expect to lose if he goes for one as well... still if we're near the ground there's usually not too much happening for him from it, so it is kinda ok I guess.

If you expect a stomp coming, once again dash attack is our weapon of choice, though if you want to go to him (say he is jumping back in from offstage or something) our nair will usually at least trade (just be ready to meteor cancel if you try this offstage ).
To counter grabs, I usually try just not to be there. WD back or even jumping and floating over him are your safest bets (if you chose to jump, make sure to get back onto the ground ASAP, mostly by covering your landing with a fair).

I usually try to control the middle as well, and then work to box in my opponent to offset for Peach's slow speed, against spacies backthrow is ok, since they most likely will have to do a side b or up b, which when correctly read can kill them at about any percentage. Against falcon not much will happen of a backthrow though (might be he needs to up b and misses the tech on a bair edgeguard, but I wouldn't count on it anyways), so we don't really gain much from hanging around there.
From the middle ground you can decide whether you want to let him come to you (evading his attack and punishing his lag for example), or begin pushing to box him in, from where he'll have to do something dangerous to him (like jump over you), which might lead to you combing him.
Falcon really thrives of room to work with, so pushing him towards the edge is really good in general.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel that low float fairs are generally good vs his nairs and reasonably good vs slow SH moves (stomp and knee) because of the amount of vertical area that Peach's fair covers. If he DJs or something to move around you, obviously it doesn't work, but because of the FC you probably shouldn't be directly punished for it either (you can probably cancel into shield or dash first and avoid being hit by it).

 

[Ryobeat]

Lately ive been realizing that this is one of my biggest flaws, that i always approach -_- i approach sheik, marth, falcon, etc.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah I dunno why you'd approach Sheik. That's just asking for trouble.

Zoning her is aight though.

 

[john!]

god falco is so ****ing good

i think he might be the best character, you guys

 

[FrootLoop]

atta boy john

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's a distinct possibility.

 

[Composeur]

Puff seems to die more consistently off the top than the sides if I can get a hit in on her. Does anyone else think that uair/usmash are underutilized moves against Puff? I know they're limited moves but I bet there are some useful applications for them as kill moves. What about floating dair>uair? Doesn't that work sometimes?

 

[Cia]

god falco is so ****ing good

i think he might be the best character, you guys

but..

that would imply that he's better than Sheik

D:

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is a distinct possibility.

 

[Wake]

I'm still in the Fox camp for best character.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I didnt see this mentioned vs falcon, but i like to dash dance camp under platforms forcing/baiting an approach (him jumping to do a aerial most the time) then stuffing the approach with a dash attack. The platforms imo kinda limit his approach options and if he desides not to come at you you can ether pull a turnip and try to sort of spam him (its kinda fake spam just to remind him he needs to come to me b/c i can throw ****), or i widen my dd so i get closer to him trying to make him feel nervous so he makes a move or if he thinks i am bluffing i do attack him with a dash attack or a fc nair. Its not all i do but i find it works pretty well

Also i know from experience ledge camping only works on falcon's which miss l cancels (its what i use to do when i sucked back in the day)

 

[ShroudedOne]

Does that mean that Peach is top 3, since she ***** Falco?

I'm with Wake. Fox absolutely owns. Everything.

Sheik is really good, too.

And more Falcon things always make me happy. I'm still not that great vs him.

 

[Xyzz]

I don't think Peach ***** Falco, I'd say it's pretty even (which imho makes it her best top tier matchup, if you place your tier cutoff before ICs :D).

It's the Falco players own fault if they just happily jump into her :D Pound V PeePee is pretty much how the Matchup should be played in my opinion. Patiently work to generate safe approach opportunities, and don't stress it, because Peach *will* punish the birds mistakes pretty severely every time she gets a hit in.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Pound V Peepee was the best way to play the MU, I definitely agree with that. I have phases of either it being even, or her beating him (either way, it's her best top/high tier matchup for sure).

If every Falco was Peepee I might feel differently, haha.

 

[Xyzz]

If every Peach was Armada, we'd be #1 :D

(yeah, I know you probably meant "was LIKE Peepee", sorry for being nitpicky )

 

[darkatma]

i've played against some really troublesome and careful falcos.. MU is pretty even in that case
zhu and hmw's falcos come to mind

 

[EPsilon933]

Truth

GAIZ! GAIZ! I will show you UNDENIABLE PROOF that Marth 60:40s Peach


I had a $6 money match vs Scrapmettle today. Here's what I pulled
Game 1: 1 stitch
Game 2: 1 stitch
Game 3: 1 stitch, 1 bomb
Game 4: 1 stitch, 2 bombs
(all specials hit by the way)
Game 5: neither. I lost $6 to Scrapmettle


SEE! SEE!!


Youtube video will be up tomorrow night

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Wow they all hit and u still lost, u must be really really bad vs marth.

Whats kinda funny is a marth i know was telling me today he thinks its 60/40 in peach's favor (i think hes crazy about that)