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VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

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Sage, I was, and still am, surprised you beat Mahone/Snackbox. Normally, there's two Jigglypuffs in Sova who can always beat my Peach, he's one of them. I always lose to them because I have dsmash addiction, although it does work when you're on a platform. You need to rest punish better. Try the PC Punish or if you don't have time, at least fsmash and hope for the frying pan. But what do I know? I dropped Peach for Zelda.

Also, yay, Peach vs Zelda matchup knowledge. Time to learn what you guys know.
 

KirbyKaze

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Vanz, I wrote this recently, I dunno how accurate it is.

----------------------------

For those who don't know Zelda vs Peach:

Peach can only do turnip stuff and stuff setup from turnip because everything else can be ***** immensely really easily (as a result of DI and how priority works in the air or on the ground).

Why Fair is horrible:

Zelda's Fair and Bair both beat Peach's Fair (big lightning ball has lots of priority) and kill her at stupid low percent. They're also faster than Peach's flying crown slap, so they can wait for you to start it and do it responsively, or simply retreat (Peach is slow and can't catch you if you retreat) if you don't do it.

Why Bair and Nair are horrible:

No range, lose to Zelda's kicks, about the same startup. No lag means nothing when the moves just lose and get you nowhere.

Why D-smash is horrible:

Zelda's so floaty that if you hit a D-smash on her at low percent, she can actually kick you in the cooldown. So beautiful pressure strings like Nair D-smash and whatever that Peach normally uses can actually be a liability here, especially when Zelda's at low percent. Zelda doesn't crouch cancel in the matchup avidly so you're unlikely to get a 60% D-smash on her. You're also asking for trouble when you spam a move with lag vs a character with 20% damage, KOing, ranged, disjointed kicks.

Why Dash Attack is horrible:

Zelda shields a lot because she likes to kick out of shield. Her throws potentially outright KO (at like 150%) and trading with an arbitrary kick is horrible. You also can never combo her from dash attack.

Why turnip is good:

Because her kick is out for like 5 frames or so, in a spot that's not very helpful for defending against angled projectiles (aim for her head), and the turnip combos into Nair and other useful things sometimes. Nayru's Love is laggy and awful so if they actually rely on it to reflect the thing, you just punish it in the same manner you would vs the Shine. You can also safely pressure her with it (on her shield with catches and stuff sometimes). The safety is important since unsafe pressure (and even some safe forms of pressure) will result in you being kicked, which sucks.
 

KirbyKaze

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Only one person commented on my matches? come on guys. I know I'm not as good as macd but... =(
Okay so I'm watching you vs ChRed2AKrisp.

I'm not good with Peach at all, but I've done the matchup with RaynEX enough when I was trying to learn her and he's really gay/good.

============= Fox =============

You're pulling Turnips way too much. Turnips are dandy but the issue is he keeps hitting you for plucking them because they take a whole second to pull. They're more useful (IMO) against ultra defensive Foxes when you absolutely need to cut off their movement in some way; ChRed is not doing that.

Okay, your technical skill (notably movement and your ability to control your low FCs) needs work. Many punishes were dropped because you didn't do a simple dash cancel, or wavedash, and wound up in that awkward stop-dash animation with her. This is really bad.

You seem hesitant sometimes. Be confident in your decisions. If it's wrong, you know to not do it next time.

You seem really desperate to hit him a lot and just lob out dash attacks. This is bad. You cannot feel desperate against Fox (and other bad matchups) because part of why the matchup is bad is the fact that you can be punished for a lot of your stuff. You have to focus on being much safer and picking your battles more carefully. You have the priority to go through him at times and set things up, so attacking isn't completely worthless, but you also have to realize that sometimes in a defensive position it's not a bad idea to back up and reset the positioning. I know, it sounds awful because of pew pew pew but dash attacking into a shield out of desperation or tossing an FC Nair at them because you just HAVE to hit them isn't going to do you favours most of the time and can often be more costly than 10% in lasers.

Your decisions need work in your combos. You land a clean dash attack and follow with D-smash, when you could have grabbed him and gone 50% - 100% via CG. If you're concerned about execution and messing it up, then you should work on your CGing because that should be a bread and butter punish in Peach's game. You really can't succeed vs the fast fallers on FD without using it when it comes up (don't force it).

There are other small things like timing Bair and edgeguards in general vs Firefox but you can correct those with small adjustments I think. You're doing a lot of them a bit too early so the hitbox has finished by the time you reach them (Peach is slow).

============= Falcon =============

Okay so vs Falcon you're pulling turnips WAY TOO MUCH. To the point where you get Kneed and probably should have died, had he edgehogged you and not Baired again. You slow down as the match progresses and after that moment, which is good. But general tip is to only pull when he's like 2/3s of FD away from you (or on a platform across the stage on smaller levels, etc). Only do it when you're 100% sure it's safe.

When you dash attack Falcon as an edgeguard and mess up, getting the strong hit, and it won't combo to anything, just get him to use his Up+B and then get to the floor immediately so you can just land that clean FC Nair or U-throw Nair or D-smash. Peach's ground movement is much, much, much faster than her floating movement and you can change directions much better in it too. Falcon has way more mobility on his Up+B coming down than you do on your airborne float so if you're challenging it that high and when he has a whole stage to work with, you're probably not going to get him unless you can read minds.

When you're coming down after being hit, you always come down with Fair or Nair. It's not a very good move to come down with the same strategy every time (air-dodge, simply falling, double jumping away are all good strategies in their moments). Versus someone like Falcon, who has more moves to beat both of your combo-break moves (Uair, namely) and heavy punishment, having a habit so ingrained like attacking during falls can give him free moves or grabs, which is really, really bad. You have to keep yourself fresh and make him consider different things that could happen if he tries to follow and convince him that he needs to wait his turn. Telling him that you're going to do the same thing every time is not good and he will be more than happy to combo you for it.

Again, you seem desperate to hit him a lot. Don't just toss moves at him, especially laggy ones like dash attack that BEGGED to be dash dance grabbed. Be patient. Falcon is a jerk, he'll make you wait. You just have to accept this and move on. This DOES NOT mean throw more turnips.

Small gimping trick. If you D-smash Falcon offstage backwards at low percent with the initial hit, they usually Bair on recovery. Dash away and then edgeguard accordingly, or shield (angle it down) and then edgeguard his Up+B with Bair or whatever. Immediate moves will often lose to his Bair. D-smashing again can also work (sometimes trades, which sucks, but sometimes also wins), but risks them teching it and then humping you (and then them recovering).

If you Dash Attack --> Nair someone near the edge, you can often combo a second Nair if you try to. Vanz's suggestion of doing Uair isn't bad, though. It tends to be more consistent, though I think Nair --> Nair is also more likely just kill them outright. Different situational applications. What I like about Nair is that if they expect Uair and DI away, Nair will still work 100%. Though Uair can definitely put on more damage and has some ridiculous potential (Uair, weak Bair, strong Nair is a string I've seen too many times to count).

If you can jab them after D-smash, you also probably could have D-smashed again. And done more damage. And killed them.

DI away from Uairs. This will screw you versus Knees for a while but you'll learn how to see the Knees coming and switch to survival DI. You get comboed really hard and need to hold away. DI away from Falcon in general. It might seem like it's not doing much, but it prevents things like this from happening at bad times.

============= Puff =============

I'm not sure how Peach vs Jigglypuff really works but from what little of it I've seen and done, I think you generally wait to look for a FJ that Puff does too close and then run under it with Nairs. Or, if they SH too much, you throw the turnip to hit where their Bair doesn't cover (their little tuft) and then follow with Nair or Fair and go combo (or you fall on them or float above them with an aerial if they overshoot their move).

I'm not sure if this is correct but usually I break Puff vs Peach down into a simple principle.

Puff wins if she stays horizontal with Peach. Bair trumps everything Peach has when it comes out (including Peach's pride and joy, Fair). So you can't be level with her if you're trying to seriously hit her. This means either approach from above at an angle, or from below (angle not really required, since Jigglypuff's Dair sucks).

In the videos vs Gambler0, you almost always approach high and then he drops and stays level with you, using some DJs in the process depending on how high you jumped, and then hits you with Bairs and stuff. You don't really mixup from this point, or simply jump high, then fast fall immediately to get under him and then go to work, nor do you simply wait for the full jump he does (he's frequently FJing before you do!) and punish him with a bunch of Nairs and Bairs from below; you still keep FJing to match his height.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I really think you won that one because he didn't take advantage of his chances to Rest your dash attack / D-smash lag (D-smash early in the match, dash attacks later), and because he really, really sucked at dealing with turnips (took so much damage from them, didn't even bother avoiding them; he got stitched heavily game 2), and spacing his aerials (and got D-smashed for like at least 40% per stock in the first game consequently).

It is good that you simply drifted away from him after being launched on Dreamland and didn't Nair/Fair automatically.

You're pulling turnips unsafely on Dreamland. Be more careful. Remember: they take a full second to pop into your hand. This is a habit you really, really need to work on because it's been prevalent in almost every match I've seen of you now.

You need to dash attack less vs Puff. I know it sounds weird, since he isn't punishing them at all, but you're really doing it too much. I mean, it gets to the point where you have clear chances to FC Nair or whatever at him and you dash attack instead, which does less percent, with less combo potential, and also is much less safe.
 

Cia

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Holy Crap.. that was an AMAZING analysis by KirbyKaze. I think everyone should read that (not just sage) because he goes into such depth, you might learn how to improve your own game.

good stuff KK
 

Silly Kyle

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Wow, that was amazing! Very helpful and it is advice I will definitely incorporate into my game as well. :)

Hopefully I can get some videos of my recent Peach for Melee online soon. She's come a long way from earlier this year and she wavedashes so naturally now lol. ^_^
 

thesage

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Thanks Vanz and KK. I can't see what you wrote right now Vanz cuz I don't havev good internet.

The reason I was pulling so much turnips is that my friend keeps telling me to pull more turnips. I tried to show him why that's bad lol.

I know not to dash attack with jiggs, but I saw that he didn't know how to punish it. If I was a better player, I would've done something else (or not done it in the first place that was really dumb of me), but I'm not and just went with it.

I still have a hard time choosing what to do vs. a missed rest jiggs. Doll told me to d-tilt cuz then you are below her and that's good but I'm bad at juggling people in non-combos.

I kinda just skimmed over what you wrote cuz I'm busy painting my new apartment and cleaning it up. I don't understand how the person before me lived like this lol. Again thanks for the help.

Epsilon, do what I do and spam turnips vs. him. He doesn't know how to deal with turnips effectively IMO. jiggs has plenty of options vs. them.

Again, Zelda matchup is just turnips. It's really lame and takes 50 minutes, but it works.
 

Rain(ame)

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Wow, KK....you posted exactly what I was too lazy to post, xD. (That and I get complaints about not getting to the point...=/) I thought my imagination was acting up on me. So I was right about that....at any rate...dude is right, lol.

Only other thing I can suggest is to look at the ways people improve on their tech skill with Peach. The handicap method is too good in that aspect.

Oh, and yes, turnips are good, but KK said it already...you can't get hit while doing it. If you so choose to go the way of the campy Peach, I suggest learning from Pink Shinobi. It'll take some time, but you'll get better at making opportunities to pull them.

Um....I also agree with the Falcon, situation. Honestly, you were VERY fortunate, there. It should have lead in to more death, earlier. Screwing up against Falcon is like asking for a death combo or massive damage, and bad stage positioning.

Oh...and I know Dash attack is a bad idea, but if they aren't punishing....LOL. Just remember for the future.
 

KirbyKaze

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I know everything.

Ironically enough that was the post I cared less about. I was more interested in the details of Zelda vs Peach and wanted to briefly discuss how her aerials and other stuff work because they basically become situational moves (well, more situational than usual) but nobody replied to my smaller wall of text.
 

Jartravious

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http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdvadb_esa4-makenshi-vs-vanity-angel_videogames

me messing up a bunch of DI's against Europe's best marth and getting mad. I nearly beat him in pools, like I choked on the last hit business. But whatever I sux0rz.
I noticed within the first 25 seconds that 2 bad turnip pulls cost you a stock. Also was the tournament using stage striking or random and what did you ban? I'm just wondering how you got to Yoshi's Story against Marth. Also I noticed when you are recovering a lot of the time you use your DJ or Float very early and I was wondering if that was on purpose or not.
Also you rolled away when Marth threw out a counter and you had a turnip. You could have either thrown the turnip down and grabbed/waited then D-smash or something. Is throwing the turnip and forcing the counter to miss and then punishing viable or does Marth recover too quickly? Marth is a strange match because you have to DI so that you only have a 65-80% chance of death vs 90-100% and if you ever have the opportunity to go on the offensive you have to take it. They were really good matches and I learned a good deal from them.

Also while watching the first match I got an idea. Wouldn't it be great to get characters such as Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falcon to catch a turnip? It takes away one of their best tools (Grabs) and everyone's first reaction once they catch one is to use it or switch their style up because they are thinking "Yay an item". Thoughts?
 

VA

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I noticed within the first 25 seconds that 2 bad turnip pulls cost you a stock. Also was the tournament using stage striking or random and what did you ban? I'm just wondering how you got to Yoshi's Story against Marth. Also I noticed when you are recovering a lot of the time you use your DJ or Float very early and I was wondering if that was on purpose or not.
Also you rolled away when Marth threw out a counter and you had a turnip. You could have either thrown the turnip down and grabbed/waited then D-smash or something. Is throwing the turnip and forcing the counter to miss and then punishing viable or does Marth recover too quickly? Marth is a strange match because you have to DI so that you only have a 65-80% chance of death vs 90-100% and if you ever have the opportunity to go on the offensive you have to take it. They were really good matches and I learned a good deal from them.

Also while watching the first match I got an idea. Wouldn't it be great to get characters such as Fox/Marth/Sheik/Falcon to catch a turnip? It takes away one of their best tools (Grabs) and everyone's first reaction once they catch one is to use it or switch their style up because they are thinking "Yay an item". Thoughts?
I actually know what I did wrong. What cost me the stock was not the turnip pull but bad DI. Granted the turnip pull could be described as bad. But anyway. I use the DJC float at that height because most of the time they can't reach me at that height so why not?

It also seems that you can't tell the difference between mistakes and bad habits.

Makenshi is better than Strawhat Dahean?
I thought Strawhat quit. Makenshi is good anyway.

and Amsah's Marth?

Well he does say that he's Europe's second best Peach, which is a dubious claim, to be honest...
Amsah rarely uses marth in tournament, his sheik is good enough to beat everyone besides armada and zgetto.

Name a better peach in europe other than Armada.

There's Utto I guess....

Also why did you go Yoshi's Story again? Is it something in the PAL version?
Because I like it. I won there in our pools match. Marth doesn't **** as hard as people think on YS. Also DL is banned and that doesn't leave a lot else. It's one of my best stages so I will confidently pick there often.
 

The Irish Mafia

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Hey guys, miss me
I'm in the deutchland or whatever, by which I mean germany
****'s pretty cool here, I wanna play smash though


so I was wondering, and I haven't had a ton of time to completely word this question so excuse the ******: which style of play is generally more effective? Outside or Inside? By outside I mean floating, staying out of their range, using turnips and defensive FCs to keep them out, and by inside I mean approaching, using CCs to counter their attacks, and i guess playing more comboish. spesifically in the fox matchup btw

also KK I straight up TLDR'd your zelda essay, but i skimmed it and found it handy

and VA is right, Marth doesn't **** as hard as people think he does on Yoshi's, he ***** twice as hard
the human brain in general has a hard time comprehending marth on yoshis
 

Rosedemon

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I actually know what I did wrong. What cost me the stock was not the turnip pull but bad DI. Granted the turnip pull could be described as bad. But anyway. I use the DJC float at that height because most of the time they can't reach me at that height so why not?

It also seems that you can't tell the difference between mistakes and bad habits.



I thought Strawhat quit. Makenshi is good anyway.



Amsah rarely uses marth in tournament, his sheik is good enough to beat everyone besides armada and zgetto.

Name a better peach in europe other than Armada.

There's Utto I guess....



Because I like it. I won there in our pools match. Marth doesn't **** as hard as people think on YS. Also DL is banned and that doesn't leave a lot else. It's one of my best stages so I will confidently pick there often.
This entire response seems so pretentious and snide, and thats very unbecoming of you (based on my perception of you, and the way you hold yourself (on the boards, lawls)).

Its obvious that the majority of what Jartravious was saying were questions more so then statements. He (she? not likely) seemed to be questioning your decision in more of a studious manner, not a critique.

Moreover saying things like

me messing up a bunch of DI's against Europe's best marth and getting mad. I nearly beat him in pools, like I choked on the last hit business. But whatever I sux0rz.
and referring to yourself as second best Peach in Europe is, as mentioned before, pretentious. People come to this thread mainly for help, and I think that we can benefit the community more by being all around humble about our play. This is why I respect Pink Shinobi so much. He may have been a campy *****, but he never claimed to be as good as he really was, and was always striving to get better.

I'd address your whole YS, Mart/Peach conundrum, but it seems like you've made up your mind on that one (being stubborn will get you no where).
 

VA

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As you rightly point out, posts are easily misconstrued. So if I understood jarvatrious' post wrongly then I'm sorry. It sounded very preachy to me about simple decisions such as choosing to throw a turnip when I made a mistake.

I don't want help from this thread. I just posted a video cos I thought we liked watching videos of each other? I didn't say critique me please!!! I thought this thread was just peach chat with the odd critique thrown in.

I'm sorry if I'm not the 2nd best peach in europe, I like titles. You're welcome to question it. But please don't read that one post of mine (admittedly defensive) and think I'm arrogant and conceited. You can't get a good understanding of a person or their personality from posts :(
 

Rosedemon

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As you rightly point out, posts are easily misconstrued. So if I understood jarvatrious' post wrongly then I'm sorry. It sounded very preachy to me about simple decisions such as choosing to throw a turnip when I made a mistake.

I don't want help from this thread. I just posted a video cos I thought we liked watching videos of each other? I didn't say critique me please!!! I thought this thread was just peach chat with the odd critique thrown in.

I'm sorry if I'm not the 2nd best peach in europe, I like titles. You're welcome to question it. But please don't read that one post of mine (admittedly defensive) and think I'm arrogant and conceited. You can't get a good understanding of a person or their personality from posts :(
No biggie, just know that its never what you said, but how you said it.
 

TheGeneral

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Kirby Kaze, good freaking critiques and match-up advice. If more experienced players posted useful information like that on the boards, I really think the peach meta-game would improve considerably.

That being said, I have a question for everyone. Do you see any uses for peach's upsmash out of shield? I was practicing it with fox and I found that it's easiest for me to do with c-stick up + x\y. Obviously this is a pretty good punish against bad shield pressure for fox but what are its uses for Peach?

From what I understand -
Her head and some of her body are invincible during startup
You can do it out of shield, meaning you can do it out of powershield
Many of peach's best edge guarding options are out of shield.

I personally try to use it as an edge guard against get up attacks from the ledge, but I don't know if thats the best use for it. Anyone else have any suggestions?
 

crismas

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Mmm...I sometimes catch people with usmash oos if I'm being silly usually LOL. Or if I know they're going to approach me by jumping. I don't really rely on it or anything though. Oh, I think I used it also if I was being pressured by Peach by air, I can't remember how that turned out >_> ignore me.
 
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Alright, let me think. I have never played smash competitively until brawl and only recently switched over to melee. So, now I am trying to catch up on under 10years worth of metagame delevopment while trying to understand an entirely different flavor of smash than I am used too and try to out of bad habits all over again with peach. This will be fun. :)
 

MacD

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OMG I LOOOOOVE UPSMASH!!!!!

but out of shield, i've done it against puff once and it killed her, the way she was spacing it just worked perfect, also if they ever pound your shield i think you should be able to upsmash out of it and hit them, possibly sweetspot but i'm not sure. i normally freeze up and forget to or be ******** and get hit somehow when they pound my shield

because it has slowish start up, it's kinda not the best out of shield though. maybe in teams or something, never thought about that

i guess if you shield a get up attack from the ledge, it could sweetspot, but if you don't do it asap, they'd probably shield or something, i normally either just try and beat get up attacks with a nair, or just shield and nair them off stage after, but a sweetspotted upsmash would be cool

when i use upsmash, i use it to catch the spacies with their dairs/others jumps, and i'm normally not shielding. but i mean in theory it's good, just gotta find times when it would hit i guess

if anything, someone should post a pic of it's hitboxes/invincibility stuff, cause it's ridiculously funny/broken
 

MacD

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also, i'm sure most of you know, but just in case you don't

the 2 circles on the side are the weak hits

the small circle by her shoulder is the sweet spot

the bigger circle by her fist is the normal one

and all the blue things are her invincibility, which is why it beats ever dair in the game, even link's dair can't match her fist
 

TheGeneral

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Well said, Macd. Crismas, don't talk down to yourself like that. Your opinions are welcome. I hadn't even thought about sweetspotting upsmash to punish get up attacks. I was more thinking of using it to pop people up in the air at an odd angle to finish with nair, but sweet spotted upsmash punishes would be pretty amazing.

And does her upsmash seriously beat link's down-air if you time it right? Amazing :bee: I had hadn't thought of that. If only it could reach past marth's freaking down-air. Well, I suppose if you shield his down air and then upsmash out of shield you could even do that. Ah, more discussion tomorrow when I get home from work, guys.
 

Rain(ame)

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Mmm...I sometimes catch people with usmash oos if I'm being silly usually LOL. Or if I know they're going to approach me by jumping. I don't really rely on it or anything though. Oh, I think I used it also if I was being pressured by Peach by air, I can't remember how that turned out >_> ignore me.
It works quite well....mainly against Dair. CC -> Usmash. I love it, and I used it against you before, lol. (This was the first time we played.)

I try not to do it regularly as....well...y'know. Still, it's a good idea, Crismas.
 

The Irish Mafia

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I hate it and rofl whenever macD usmashes a spacies dair and wins the trade
I started using usmash oos to counter foxes fhdair/fhnair over my shield, usmash is becoming my move of choice to counter foxes fhs in general
 

TheGeneral

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Okay, another topic to consider - I've heard numerous intelligent players say that hitting the ground during hit stun cuts it in half, so for example, if fox is going to full hop down-air you, you should jump right when he does so that you land before him and can grab him out of it or something silly like that.

What are it's uses for peach? Dr. PP said that I might try jumping before getting hit with certain aerials and try to punish with down smash but to be careful because obviously getting hit in the air with certain moves puts you at a disadvantage.

So, quickly a list of some moves that I'm going to try this on:

fox's full hop dair
fox's back air

falco's nair

peach's dair

I'm sure there are others that this might work on but the most interesting uses are against people that will get destroyed by down smash.

I also kind of want to see what happens if you get hit by a weak knee while in the air ( at low percentages )

And mind you, all of this assumes that you hit the ground as soon as possible after getting hit, not fly left or right, in which case you're probably about to get comboed.
 

LumpyCPU...

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usmash oos sounds good against puffs who like to cross over shields with nair.

as for the hitstun reduction thing from hitting the ground.
it sounds more like something you should take advantage of when it happens, rather than try to make it happen.
if you can jump when you're about to be hit by a dair, couldn't you just shield (or power shield, yayuhzz)?

in my final statement, peaches should dash dance and float dance more in most match ups, imo.
 

Jartravious

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usmash oos sounds good against puffs who like to cross over shields with nair.

as for the hitstun reduction thing from hitting the ground.
it sounds more like something you should take advantage of when it happens, rather than try to make it happen.
if you can jump when you're about to be hit by a dair, couldn't you just shield (or power shield, yayuhzz)?

in my final statement, peaches should dash dance and float dance more in most match ups, imo.
Can you give an example, hopefully a video, of what you mean by "float dance"?
 

Cia

das kwl
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Alright, let me think. I have never played smash competitively until brawl and only recently switched over to melee. So, now I am trying to catch up on under 10years worth of metagame delevopment while trying to understand an entirely different flavor of smash than I am used too and try to out of bad habits all over again with peach. This will be fun. :)

I missed this post earlier. But I'm sure you've noticed that brawl peach and melee peach are pretty similar so there isn't much to learn as far as spacing your attacks go. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are also a number of threads that give in-depth detail regarding match ups, turnips, the float, etc. Just check the stickies. and good luck.
 
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