VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[DoH]

darkrain and I are teaming this weekend!

I think there are going to be vidsssss

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I missed this post earlier. But I'm sure you've noticed that brawl peach and melee peach are pretty similar so there isn't much to learn as far as spacing your attacks go. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. There are also a number of threads that give in-depth detail regarding match ups, turnips, the float, etc. Just check the stickies. and good luck.

Actually, I find melee peach and brawl peach to be very different in numerous areas. For one, the whole execution of turnips are rather different. Brawl peach has access to glide tossing while melee peach does not. In Brawl, this is really the only way peach has to effectively maintain spacing on the ground instead of simply standing there throwing turnips. In melee, I have to double jump cancel my turnip throws or wavedash to achieve the same kind of spacing I had with glide tossing. Another difference are the turnips themselves. Melee turnips actually stick around after encountering shields or attacks while in brawl they simply disappear after contact with shields or attacks. Apart for timing issues I have with trying to regrab turnips in the air, melee turnips actually appear to fly further than brawl turnips. This is all just turnips.

Spacing seems to be completey messed up as well. Peach's utilt in brawl is her melee usmash. It has the same type of priority melee usmash has due to it's size. So, that's another little thing I have to try differently is using Utilt less in melee due to it not having the same type of priority has brawl had. Maybe it's a personal problem, but I find that forward smash and grabs have different spacing as well. The range seems reduced on melee, while the golf club has even more range than it's brawl counterpart.

The only things I really find similar are how you go about using peach in general. But there is still a lot of stuff that really messes up you. Well, that's just my experience moving over. I might be bias a little due to the fact on how different melee is in general.

But yeah, I'll certainly ask questions when the time comes, but after hanging around the brawl boards for a little over a year, I know how annoying it is for people to ask newbie questions, so I will try to refrain as much as I can by using those guides and simply read a lot.

But continuing my rant, I am so glad about the functions of peach in melee. I do not have to worry about trying to l-cancel or wavedashing which would probably have set me back a bit trying to learn their functions. I mean, float, quick ending aerials and double jump cancel seems to solve all of those l-cancel/wavedash concepts in melee. I can never really think of when I say a melee peach really ever use her wavedash at all. She does not even need it for edgehogging because ground floating is just as quick and even easier to time than wavedashing. Plus, it gets the affects being able to use a great edgeguard tool, Bair. And, from reading around, I do not have to l-cancel with peach as I would with other characters.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Can you give an example, hopefully a video, of what you mean by "float dance"?

same concept as dash dancing.

use your float in ways that can provoke or bait an attack.

i like to start a float at around half short hop height and fast fall wave land back then continue to dash dance. stuff like that, i guess.

 

[TheGeneral]

darkrain and I are teaming this weekend!

I think there are going to be vidsssss

Well consider me hype. Falcon Peach sounds stupid enough to work. What's the team name going to be?

Darkness of Rain?
Rainness of Heart?
Of Heart Rain?
Dark Heart of?




Darkrain?

edit: on second thought. **** falcon. I was just playing one a second ago and getting my *** combo'd. Stupid d-throw into anything.

 

[Devil Ray]

it's been a while since i've used peach, but can you use up-b out of shield as an anti-pressure tactic? I remember wife used to use it a lot

 

[Rain(ame)]

Um...I do have one thing to say Xeylode.....you DO have to L-cancel the DJC. at least for Peach. You'll notice a stark difference in the timing when you do that. I thought you didn't either at first....until it was brought up in conversation about two years ago, I think.

 

[crismas]

Edit: Okay, so this is where I got confused. Because I always float cancel my DJC's with Peach so no l-cancel was necessary. I rarely use DJC without it with her, because it's not really all that necessary. Derping it up, I made no sense last night.

Also Peach doesn't NEED wavedash but it's good for mix ups.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, could someone explain to me why I here keep reading/hearing about peaches aerials being faster than l-canceling?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

one of the stickied threads is a float cancel faq or something. that explains how it's faster than lcanceling an aerial.

and as for lcanceling your djc aerials.

the "cancel" in double jump cancel doesn't refer to landing lag. you do need to lcancel it.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Just try it, and you'll see. It's actually no where near as difficult as SHFFLing your Aerials.

 

[MacD]

Edit: Okay, so this is where I got confused. Because I always float cancel my DJC's with Peach so no l-cancel was necessary. I rarely use DJC without it with her, because it's not really all that necessary. Derping it up, I made no sense last night.

Also Peach doesn't NEED wavedash but it's good for mix ups.

the whole thing with DJC is that during your double jump you aerial, which cancels your jump and you fall

if you float during your double jump i guess you technically cancel it too... but you won't fall down cause you are obviously floating

also i'm like the go to peach of not wavedashing, but wavedash back is good to learn, it's good against lots of people

 

[Jartravious]

the whole thing with DJC is that during your double jump you aerial, which cancels your jump and you fall

if you float during your double jump i guess you technically cancel it too... but you won't fall down cause you are obviously floating

also i'm like the go to peach of not wavedashing, but wavedash back is good to learn, it's good against lots of people

When should you use DJC instead of FC? What does it allow you to do that other techniques don't?

 

[john!]

i use djc aerials sometimes coming down from above. dj changes your air movement instantly, so it can be useful for catching them off guard. like, coming down from a platform that they're under, i'll rn off and djc a bair towards them. it's really situational though, and fc is almost always better.

 

[TheGeneral]

When should you use DJC instead of FC? What does it allow you to do that other techniques don't?

l-cancled, djc bair into down smash works pretty well at low percentages against ganon ( same for other big, heavy characters). Mainly djc'ing is used to change your trajectory in mid air to confuse your opponent or to add some momentum to an aerial for extra reach. The classic example is running off of a platform while your opponent's underneath then djc'ing bair into them. They usually don't see it coming.

Float canceling will at best carry your running momentum into an attack, but it can't generate much on its own.

 

[_lemons]

I had a fantasy at one point that djc nair out of shield would be a useful skill to master, and it seems fast, but fc/sh nair oos seems better usually.

 

[thesage]

FC Nair oos is definitely better than djc nair oos.

I play Ness too... I wish he had fc. It's sooo much better than FC.

 

[KirbyKaze]

FC Nair oos is definitely better than djc nair oos.

I play Ness too... I wish he had fc. It's sooo much better than FC.

fc is definitely better than FC. FC requires the use of the shift button or caps lock. Which is far too much tech skill for mere mortals during tournament matches.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

the whole thing with DJC is that during your double jump you aerial, which cancels your jump and you fall

if you float during your double jump i guess you technically cancel it too... but you won't fall down cause you are obviously floating

also i'm like the go to peach of not wavedashing, but wavedash back is good to learn, it's good against lots of people

wd back oos to dsmash/grab/taunt
too good

I had a fantasy at one point that djc nair out of shield would be a useful skill to master, and it seems fast, but fc/sh nair oos seems better usually.

i used to djc nair all the time when i got into peach. i didn't know about floatcanceling yet... lol

 

[thesage]

Sorry I meant fc is better than djc. Paint fumes and chlorine get to ur head...

Edit: Vanz: when you said I looked lost in my matches what do you mean?

Also how do you guys manage to keep track of spacies and falcon when they move around. I have a hard time doing it...

 

[LumpyCPU...]

FALCON CAN JUST RUN AROUND AND DECIDE TO HIT YOU WHENEVER HE WANTS AND YOU DIE
that match up is soooo scary sometimes

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

FALCON CAN JUST RUN AROUND AND DECIDE TO HIT YOU WHENEVER HE WANTS AND YOU DIE
that match up is soooo scary sometimes

I feel that way a lot of the time when starting out against anyone. Situations in brawl I was accustomed to where it was safe to pull a turnip is no longer viable due to the speed at which characters can cover distances now.

Let me see if I got this right. Never pull turnips unless someone is really far away, or they have just taken decent knockback at mid-percents which means it is safe to pull turnips. And if you can get some projectile pressure going against characters without projectiles, abuse it!

One other thing, how useful is Fair? I see this and read about it quiet a lot. I guess it's just that safe on block or has huge priority/range?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

\ And if you can get some projectile pressure going against characters without projectiles, abuse it!
\

i'd call captain an exception.

he's so fast, that it's rarely safe to waste a full second of your valuable time.
obviously you should use them, but for a guy without projectiles, he does a good job of covering a lot of areas on the stage.

 

[Winston]

One other thing, how useful is Fair? I see this and read about it quiet a lot. I guess it's just that safe on block or has huge priority/range?

Fair is really useful... both of the things you said are true. Float canceled fair has slight frame advantage for peach on block. Fair -> Dsmash will likely shieldstab if it's diminished already, or if they try to do something like shieldgrab. Fair -> Grab can work if they expect the Dsmash and just wait. If they tend to buffer rolls or something you can do Fair -> wait for them to do something. It's generally an advantageous situation for Peach if they shield a float canceled Fair.

From neutral, spaced floating Fairs are quite good and tend to combo into dash attack at low percents.

 

[Silly Kyle]

I need help with the Falco matchup!!

Here are some recent videos of my Peach. They feature the #4 player in Tucson, AZ against me, the #3 player. :D

Silly Kyle (Peach) vs. Rubyiris (Falco)
Match 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqt2kmvg80
Match 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zWfs66MCvA

I make plenty of mistakes and I would really appreciate some advice!!

I really want to work on power shielding and wavedash out of shield. It's hard for me to wavedash out of shield though because I use L for shield and for wavedashing! Ugh!! I will have to practice it more I guess.

Anywho!! Hopefully I can get some videos up of me against the #1 player in Tucson, GamerGuitarist7, who has an amazing Captain Falcon. I'm really starting to understand the matchup now!!

 

[KirbyKaze]

FALCON CAN JUST RUN AROUND AND DECIDE TO HIT YOU WHENEVER HE WANTS AND YOU DIE
that match up is soooo scary sometimes

Nonsense, Falcon is a terrible character.

Despite being high tier.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

YOU'RE a terrible character...

 

[Jartravious]

Nonsense, Falcon is a terrible character.

Despite being high tier.

Quoted for emphasis, Falcon has no shield options. The game plan against falcon is contain and destroy.

 

[Rain(ame)]

Nonsense, Falcon is a terrible character.

Despite being high tier.

The same could be said about Peach, LOL. (Actually it HAS been said >_<)

Fair is really useful... both of the things you said are true. Float canceled fair has slight frame advantage for peach on block. Fair -> Dsmash will likely shieldstab if it's diminished already, or if they try to do something like shieldgrab. Fair -> Grab can work if they expect the Dsmash and just wait. If they tend to buffer rolls or something you can do Fair -> wait for them to do something. It's generally an advantageous situation for Peach if they shield a float canceled Fair.

From neutral, spaced floating Fairs are quite good and tend to combo into dash attack at low percents.

Quoted for truth. Heck Vidjo always abused Fair. That's something that Brawl and Melee Peach do have in common. Fair is useful.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Kyle, you played that match-up pretty well. You pretty much pegged your own weakness. Probably power shielding. Also, you might not want to forget the spacing on your aerials. The Dair has like a spot that you can use to get over Falco's head.
I saw times you could have used that. There are times when you were closer to that height, but rushed in, and got punished for it. In the first match you could have actually backed up when he Baired you and Faired in response. All in all a good display against Falco. Keep up the good work. Don't forget to look for more grabs.

I saw missed grab opportunities, (granted we all do that, lol) and some missed aerials after chaingrabs.


That's about all I can say, I know someone else can explain in more depth what I probably should be saying. I'm not exactly an expert on this match-up.

 

[Jartravious]

Would anyone be interested in helping me compile a list of Peach's options from the ledge? I'm lacking an understanding of her edge game so if anyone wants to contribute either let me know by a pm or post in here for discussion but I don't want to flood the thread.

Edit: One quick and unrelated question. Say a Fair hit a shield that was angled up. Would it still be safe on block if float canceled and are there situations where Fair won't be safe on block?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Would anyone be interested in helping me compile a list of Peach's options from the ledge? I'm lacking an understanding of her edge game so if anyone wants to contribute either let me know by a pm or post in here for discussion but I don't want to flood the thread.

Edit: One quick and unrelated question. Say a Fair hit a shield that was angled up. Would it still be safe on block if float canceled and are there situations where Fair won't be safe on block?

I say just experiment around a bit with using her from the ledge. I mean, there cannot be too many options available you couldn't already figure out yourself. Well, that is what I'm going to do right now. I honestly keep rolling, jump, attack, or get-up from the ledge.

Random Note: I might be staying in memphis next summer. Go figure.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Edit: Kyle, you played that match-up pretty well. You pretty much pegged your own weakness. Probably power shielding. Also, you might not want to forget the spacing on your aerials. The Dair has like a spot that you can use to get over Falco's head.
I saw times you could have used that. There are times when you were closer to that height, but rushed in, and got punished for it. In the first match you could have actually backed up when he Baired you and Faired in response. All in all a good display against Falco. Keep up the good work. Don't forget to look for more grabs.

I saw missed grab opportunities, (granted we all do that, lol) and some missed aerials after chaingrabs.


That's about all I can say, I know someone else can explain in more depth what I probably should be saying. I'm not exactly an expert on this match-up.

Thank you so much! I definitely notice that there are a lot of missed grab opportunities that could have done some decent damage. I also wish I had better timing nairing out of shield/grabbing when a Falco is pressuring my shield.

 

[MacD]

lol.. macd actually fought to get wobbling banned?

does he not know that he plays Peach?

mass fail.

i didn't want to address this like 5 days later in the IC thread, but i think you gathered if you read what pocky/zhu talked about

if not, he just asked us what he thought, i said i think it's stupid, then i stopped talking, i didn't know we were convincing him to ban it or not lol


also peach options from the ledge are meh, besides the obvious roll, get up, etc, you can

up b "stall" - since her parasol goes past the ledge some, it can hit someone if they get to close, if it hits, getting back on the stage could become easier

using your double jump- so fall a little and use your jump, then you can choose between more crappy options of air dodge or attack or something, but if you somehow still have your float, double jumping > float makes it a little easier to get on because your opponent will expect you to fall when your jump ends

other than that, i can't think of anything right now, but basically all her options suck

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

other than that, i can't think of anything right now, but basically all her options suck

Speaking of options, how about avoiding invicibility from someone's new stock?

When you recently kill someone you typically want to try to keep pulling turnips in the rare hopes of picking up a stitch, bom-omb, mr. saturn, or sword. After that you are stuck with an item in hand.

The only options I really see are to try to ledge stall perhaps with the parasol. Or use float by double jumping, cancel and airdodge past using platforms if available.

One thing I had been thinking about is ground float offstage with a turnip, then wait for the invicibility to wear off. Obviously not against fox, falco, or the rest of the projectile ilk. With Fair, turnip and parasol getting to that ledge after floating offstage shouldn't be too difficult to get back too.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i used to do that, but i've grown to hate the idea of giving away positional advantage by going offstage.

i think it's a terrible idea.

 

[thesage]

Yea if they hit you out of ur float after you double jumped... well ur ****ed.

Just play keep away. Airdoge and roll, shield. Just be super defensive. And don't throw ur turnip at them while they are still invincible...

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Airdoge and roll, shield.

i'd say try to avoid all of these things if possible.

those are things i look for when i'm invincible.

 

[thesage]

It depends on the situation. If marth is about to f-smash you while he's invincible what are you going to od stand there? Of course you don't just blindly do those things cuz that's just dumb lol...

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i said "avoid if possible"

not "NEVER FUGGIN' DO IT"

i didn't mean to undermine your teachings and what not.

 

[thesage]

yea I know. I'm just being affected byt he massive amount of paint fumes and chlorine in my apartment right now sorry.

These fumes make my Peach play really bad and my ness and pikachu wtfamazing. I'm thinking of picking up pika cuz he's just soooo fun.

 

[TheGeneral]

I played hella spacies yesterday and it was actually really fun. dash dance camping into wd-back down smash/ down tilt is so ****. As is full jump aerial into djc-(backwards arced) nair or bair. Peeps just don't think it's gonig to hit until it does and they get d-smashed, lol.

I also played about two other peach's yesterday in dittos and I've learned a lot about the ditto. If you edge guard peach similarly to marth ( ie. wait far enough back from the ledge to be able to f-smash any recovery options ) then peach is effed when coming back onto the stage. I also like to throw turnips into the air to stop and high recoveries. But yeah, peach's fsmash ***** in the ditto. And I didn't realize this but djc (into low floating) dair cancelled into nair ***** crouch cancelling. Someone did this to me while I was trying to cc-dsmash but he never landed so even if d-smash had come out it would have wiffed his peach completely.

Hmm, djc'ing is really useful for punishing in the peach ditto. For example if you two are spacing each other out with dash dancing and she djc's back air/ nair into you and you see her jump, you jump slightly after her, then djc bacwards into her with your own aerial ( hopefully punishing landing lag). Obviously if she is smart, she'll bait and punish you the same way. A very funny cat and mouse game. Oh, and how could I have forgotten. Jump throw turnip into low nair is an annoyingly good approach ( that I still need to work on ). It just cuts off so many escape options if you find yourself cornered with it.

Obviously fast fc nair/ bair into down smash is extremely valuable to be able to use but it can be interrupted by a number of things with good spacing ( see f-smash/ spaced djc's ).
Nair out of shield punishes improperly spaced/timed nairs and fairs just as it would against spacies ( make sure to di-away from your opponent after it hits so they can't get a revenge djc falling nair on you on the way down, though )

My personal favorite recovery destroyer to punish rolls onto the stage from the edge. Again, wait 5 or so steps from the edge and throw turnips or something to force a roll onto the ledge. When they roll, just wait for them to literally land at your feet and fc nair their body to send them flying back off, lol.

I'm glad I'm writing this stuff down, so that I can look back at it later because lord knows I would forget by the next time I play the game, lol.

cheers