VaNz Stuff.. about Peach (Tactical Discussion)

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ive almost JV5 stocked a couple people recently, but they keep jabbing me or something like that on their last stock

 

[Wake]

I JV 5'd a link player in Peach/Link, JV 5'd a Bowser with Peach, and then JV 5'd in a Marth ditto.

 

[baka4moé]

good luck shrouded!

also thanks for the link advice kk! ive been pretty busy so i havent checked this thread in a while

 

[EPsilon933]

Almost a year ago I near JV 5ed Sange. I took off 3 stocks and didn't get hit. Ended up with 38% at the end of the game. And now he's better than me >_>

 

[Wake]

Oh yeah! Good luck! Try to get some stuff recorded!

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'll try, but I lost my recording stuff for some reason. >.>

In any case, thanks guys! I have no idea where to go in terms of developing past "mediocrity at low level," so perhaps I will get new ideas, and insight on where I might be mistaken (though it's probably a problem of not recognizing what I can do where, and how to capitalize on those options.)

EDIT: KirbyKaze never explained to me what he meant about my video... =P

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

GL man. try to play a many good players u can while at the tourney and dont be afraid to ask for advice. Even if they dont play a peach they might be able to give u helpful advice. I also find it helpful to just play good players b/c it shows me were my weaknesses r in my game. Also if u lose matches try to think about why u lost and what u could of done differently. and like i said gl tomorrow

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So i played peach today at a smashfest. Peach is so ****ing hard to use O_O. Beat ORLYs falcon once or twice with her, which was insane.

More importantly I played fox and messed shiz up (3 stocked ORLY's falcon twice and 1 stocked it in our final game of the night). I've still got it baby, i might actually be better than ever thanks to the refreshing break ive been on

 

[Wake]

Peach is a weirdo. It's true Sveet.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

bottom of the main page says its Macd's bday so happy Bday to macD

edit: just realized his Bday is one day before mine lol. guess this is when peach's r made lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Peach is a weirdo. It's true Sveet.

The more I play peach, the more I think she is better than marth

 

[ShroudedOne]

The more I play peach, the more I think she is better than marth

Awww, that's sooo cuuuuute! Thinking Peach is better than Marth. Aw, isn't he special?

I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for that, though.

On another note, I found out yesterday that I'm pretty much the only Peach main from Rochester to Syracuse. Wild. If Peach mains could ever ask for worse representation.... :D

 

[john!]

Awww, that's sooo cuuuuute! Thinking Peach is better than Marth. Aw, isn't he special?

I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for that, though.

On another note, I found out yesterday that I'm pretty much the only Peach main from Rochester to Syracuse. Wild. If Peach mains could ever ask for worse representation.... :D

i'm pretty sure that he's thought that peach is better than marth for a while.

and you think that's bad? i'm one of like 4 peach mains in the whole midwest...

 

[The Irish Mafia]

imo, people will be saying falco is the best character next, and peach after that, assuming melee holds up that long
shrouded, i know Phish-It used to play peach, haha. And thegeneral might still be somewhere, i think he was from that area.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, I know of thegeneral, but he doesn't play anymore. As for Phish-It, I don't recognize the name, but I'll keep a lookout.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Awww, that's sooo cuuuuute! Thinking Peach is better than Marth. Aw, isn't he special?

I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for that, though.

Well for one, she doesn't have the CC issues that a lot of characters do. Instead she has "getting camped" issues. As patience increases among players, camping doesn't matter. As long as the peach player accepts the situation, reacts calmly and doesn't overreact or overextend then the game is still winnable as long as the result is determined by stocks. We have already seen the metagame begin to shift towards time determining the result, and when that becomes commonplace then the getting camped thing might matter a lot. I think peach has a lot of good anti-camp tools, though. Turnips alone give her a lot of range. Who knows, peach might become unplayable soon, but right now I think her combos, survivability, zoning and overall ability to win out if there happens to be a trade really make her a strong character when the result is still won by stocks.

Marth on the other hand has a very exploitable spacing. Out of a dash he can only really threaten with one move at a time. He can grab, he can dash attack, he can jump. Dash attack isn't viable close range, grab isn't viable long range, and jumping is generally bad for marth though you can cover above with fair/uair. From standing position he has his tilts as well, but all of these are very laggy and therefore situational. Even ignoring that, they only work at a precise range, otherwise they don't do significant knockback to be safe on hit. Marth is simply the result of a non-top tier becoming one of the most popular characters. Everyone figured the match-up out perfectly because it was so common, but the character itself couldn't stand the test. This is opposite of say, fox or falco, who have been super popular for years and still are on top despite everyone knowing the match-up.

 

[MacD]

bottom of the main page says its Macd's bday so happy Bday to macD

edit: just realized his Bday is one day before mine lol. guess this is when peach's r made lol

haha thanks dude

i'm surprised people even look at whose birthday it is

 

[KirbyKaze]

Well guys, I'm no longer a discussion leader. So my passive resistance to normal Melee moderators is now gone. Consequently, I'm probably gonna be in & out of the boards a lot more now, since VaNz (and several others) are probably itching for the chance to ban me for my various future offenses and crimes against harmony on the boards.

*tips hat*

It's been fun ^__~

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK you will always be the discussion leader of my heart

 

[ShroudedOne]

What Sveet said. I wish you wouldn't go, cause you are very informative (and entertaining), and I'd like to leech more information learn from you. I honestly don't see the disruptive activity that you're talking about. But I dunno. This website seems to be going somewhere...not good.

But I'll miss you and your posts, KK.

 

[KirbyKaze]

EDIT: KirbyKaze never explained to me what he meant about my video... =P

I forgot. And now I've forgotten what I was gonna say.

I'll rewatch at some point and tell you. Once school is being less mean. Or more mean. Whichever.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Okay, thanks. Take your time.

 

[Wake]

John! I'm here too! I'm a Peach main and in the MW!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My big post was completely ignored

 

[Wake]

Ok! Well I'm not sure that I think Peach is an over all better character than Marth, but I do think that the Peach/Marth MU itself is nearly even except maybe on YS and/or DL.

 

[thesage]

I'm very bad at the Marth matchup when it comes to aggressive Marths.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

She might not be strictly "better" than marth, but I dont think there should be a tier distinction between them.

Fox/Falco tier
Puff/Sheik/Marth/Peach tier
Falcon/ICs tier

 

[ShroudedOne]

I completely agreed with your points, Sveet. They were all very good. Sorry I didn't respond earlier, though. I do think that Sheik can be on the same tier with the spacies, though...

 

[Rosedemon]

I really had like a good framework for a post about why I disagree, but then I got tired and stopped caring.

Long story short, I disagree.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Possibly, though she loses to fox really hard and falco is maybe even but probably not

 

[Wake]

I think that Marth has a better time with Fox than Peach basically. I agree that they should be in the same tier though yeah.

And I have the easiest time with aggressive Marths... it's the DD campy ones that annoy me a bit.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

@MacD. i normilly dont look at the bday section, i just happened to be scrolling down maybe while my page was loading and saw it or maybe i was going to the media part idr. (i am not some weird guy checking the bdays and stuff)

also sveet i disagree with some of what u said. i dont feel that time is determining results. the only match were i feel that is true atm is ylink vs jiggs. I feel the metagame has and is shifting more in the direction of how safe someone can be and frame advantage. I know its been that way for a while with fox and falco but i feel its now being explored and exploited more with other characters such as peach and her fc aerials. Now i am not going to disagree with your argument that peach might be better then marth b/c right now i am on the fence about that. i feel in the current meta peach is better but i am not sure if thats b/c peach's meta is improving and is showing she is better, or if its just b/c marth's meta is lagging behind and or has reached a ceiling. I dont like saying his meta potential has been reached b/c thats what i thought in 2007 about melee and clearly I was very wrong. Anyway what i am saying here is peach might be better then marth but i am not certain about that.

Also i was playing a friend of mine who has started using jiggs, and while my peach can beat his jiggs i decided to try ylink just to see how the mu feels. and honestly it was really fun. we played i believe 3 matches with me as ylink and him as jiggs. the first i lost but started to get the hang of ylink a little bit, then i won the next 2. One of the two i won went to time were i won by 6%. anyway ylink vs jiggs i thought was pretty fun to play even if some people find it boring to watch. (also when i told him i thought the MU was fun he told me he didnt think it was fun at all from the jiggs side of things.

lastly shrouded how did the tourney go for u?

 

[MacD]

I really had like a good framework for a post about why I disagree, but then I got tired and stopped caring.

Long story short, I disagree.

OMG, this is 100% me and the peach boards for the past like month

except i don't even post that i disagree cause who cares

 

[ShroudedOne]

@MacD: What's the point then, really?

@N.A.G.A.C.E: I timed out a Samus on FoD unintentionally. That's really the only notable thing that happened. I did about as well as I thought I would, which was good, I guess. Now it's time to improve. I enjoyed the friendlies/company a tad bit more than the friendlies, too. I'm also reverting back to my original belief that Samus, for me, is easy.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

In terms of the fox matchup alone, i agree that marth has it the best between him sheik and peach. I think peach has it slightly better simply because its so hard to tack on early damage as sheik and both of them get camped about as hard.

I think its arguable what the values for the falco match-ups are, but I think peach has the best between the 3.

As for puff, most people say all 3 of them lose. Imo sheik has the best between them, with peach probably at the worse side.

Sheik beats marth and peach, but marth more than peach.

Marth vs peach is somewhat up in the air right now, probably close to even.

Below them, sheik kinda ****s on everyone lower, except ICs. Same is kinda true for marth but he has a hand full of even match-ups. Marth is even against ICs, Ganon, Falcon (arguable either way). Peach has a lot of good match-ups lower as she beats ICs real hard, samus really bad, ganon slightly, and everyone else too. Her main hiccup is falcon, which might be peach's worst match-up period.


tl;dr Going by the match-ups alone, peach is definitely on the same level as sheik and marth.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm quite sure that Peach/Falco is even. Unless both Marth and Sheik lose to Falco, don't all three of them do equally as well?

Also, doesn't Peach have some issues with some mid/low tiers, as opposed to Sheik, who just ***** everyone? (I'm thinking of the Links, mainly, but isn't Doc also an issue? I'm asking cause I don't actually know, but he has good things for dealing with Peach.)

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I enjoyed the friendlies/company a tad bit more than the friendlies, too. I'm also reverting back to my original belief that Samus, for me, is easy.

u enjoyed what more then what? just a little confused b/c u wrote friendlies a tad bit more than the friendlies. not sure what u mean by the /company

do u mean playing as samus or facing against samus? Also imo if u r thinking about playing as samus dont. its just my opinion but i think samus is a worst character then the tier list says and pretty boring to play as and play against. (like i said imo)

Peach does have some closer MU with some lower tier characters but none of them r truly that bad. so i just dont feel like they should effect her over all tier list placing.

Also do u think jiggs peach is worst then jiggs sheik? i dont know the jiggs sheik Mu that well but from what i heard it just seems like everything sheik tries at lower dmg besides needles can lead to rest (i am sure thats a over exaggeration). Also if u compare how amsah did vs hbox compared to armada vs hbox it kinda looks like its better for peach. (i know one set and two players is way to small of sample size to be conclusive)

 

[EPsilon933]

I don't know how old this is, but 2 days ago I thought up an opening strategy with Peach: Don't do anything but hold down, then dsmash after you get hit. You can follow up with a pretty nice combo. It works only against an aggressive start (if they don't try to hit you with a spike/meteor which flinches even crouch cancelers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09JN9Wcltu0

Anyone want to comment on another tournament video of me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ8Qr_qomDw

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

^i've tried starting the match cc but the falcon i play just grabs me .

I will edit once i watch the vids if i got something to say.

 

[EPsilon933]

Yeah, grabbing works too. I guess if you predict a grab, dsmashing before his action would work well (as a mix up)