Upstate New York Tournament Thread

[eeveee]

I'm not saying you made the list to personally attack/insult anyone, it could just come off as that. And I'm not angry, (though I probably should be, you didn't even include me on the list lol)

Tiers are too 'what if' for my taste, but that's just me. But to counter what you said, it shows the flaw in any sort of rating system where not everyone gets the same exact or similar sample sizes. Everyone plays a different amount of games, in occasionally radical different settings & circumstances. It's not like a pro sport where each team meets a certain number of times and you can conclude based on everyone's overall & performance with the same schedule who is the clear best & who is the clear worst. So yeah, there's flaws in either system, I just prefer ranking since to me, it just makes more sense. A rating based on what you've actually done as opposed to that, plus what you're perceived/predicted to do in tiers seems less concrete. I'm a guy who believes numbers tell the stories, especially in something competitive. Perception may aid in how the numbers may change and definitely makes for interesting discussion, without a doubt. I just find tiers to be a foggy way of getting something similar to a rank across. I mean, a rank is a rank 1 through whatever number. Tiers are foggy & lack being clarity that rankings have, as far as determining who the currently best player is. I for one, find it easier to know exactly where I am than an estimate.

Like in school I was rated as the '3rd Decile' in my graduating class, which is essentially a parallel of a tier. So in my case, that means I was ranked between something like 70-100 in my class of 366 or some number around there. I could have been 70, but the person who was ranked 69 is a whole tier up & in the 2nd Decile. Seems a lot more of a jump than one rank is, doesn't it?

Ranks just feel like a much more gradual linear progression than tiers, which seem like leaps and bounds in comparison. But I'm just rambling at this point. Pay no mind to me.

My girl graduated first in here class. Valedictorian. If you aint S-Tier you aint ****. Everyone Get at me. Step your game up!

- Cura

 

[da K.I.D.]

so this acton kid.

Hes a pretty cool guy.

Eh takes Curas **** more than frannie (love you too babe =P) and doesnt afraid of anything.


EDIT
now that he brought it up, im gonna go play some aib ladder, feel free to get at me

 

[san.]

I think talk like this is alright as long as people don't really take things too personal. I hope to see a lot of improvement from XXX, 1337-0, JamesG, and Moss, to the point where they start to rival Dr. G. I believe that Dr. G would do better once he gets a Wii. Dr. G had to play people like atomsk in early rounds, but I think he's still doing well, if you look at his double placements. I feel the nyc practice will help him.

No clue what's going on with snakeee though. His offstage recovery is pretty polished for ZSS, I think he's starting to fall for tricks more easily from what I notice, though. I don't know much other than that, though.

I also think the gap between me and Cura and Goggles/pika aren't as great as them compared to the others below, based on % winning a set, but it's still slightly noticeable. I could see those two stepping up even more again, after polishing up their play on a few of their characters.

 

[Shugo-Chan]

Lol dakid i got kicked out cuz i was playing friendlies with lee in the lounge. lots of other ppl did it but i was the only one who got kicked out. ***** was trippin. i told her to stop touching me and i told her who did it and they looked at me like i was crazy and threw me out lol w.e. thanks for holding onto it ill see you at apex or raleigh or w.e lol

 

[TheManaLord]

if eevee doesnt get above a 4.0 (i'm expecting a 4.0005) she should be ashamed!!!!

lol jk eevee so studious =)


ps every1 im 21 right now

 

[Dr. Grandpa]

omgg im goin to be 21 too =D

 

[JamesG]

Although I believe having that special "competitive flame" and a solid mindset will help the player in the long run, I think there are much more successful approaches in achieving this than making a tier list.

Like I always tell Matt, I nearly disregard smashboards completely yet I am improving at a much faster rate than many of the players in our region. I also only play the game on the day of tournaments. I am not saying that all players can have success in the same methods that I do, but it is a solid point that should be mentioned. I find some things such as Matt telling me what to avoid in matches, and also playing friendlies with me using my upcoming opponents' characters has done much more for me than a smashboards discussion.

Of course, it is blatant that some players are superior to and more dedicated than others, and its not a sin to state an opinion on it. But in the end, I believe the most important factor in settling these debates, and more significantly, benefiting the community as a whole is sticking to the facts rather than assumptions.

A good example I could think of was the tournament yesterday. Acton stated to the other players during my loser's final matches against 1337-0 that "JamesG is the underdog" and emphasized that me beating 1337-0 would be an upset. However, when I defeated 1337-0 3-1 in the set, Acton quickly changed his mindset, stating that "JamesG is clearly the better player" and implied that he didn't have a single doubt that I would win. So what sort of results do these debates yield in the end? It looks to me like a huge jumbled mess in which people constantly contradict themselves and lean too heavily on assumptions.


We have already constructed a Power Ranking based on tournament matches and placings, which is already reason enough for people to strive to be better. Given that, while a player tier list could be influential, I see it as unnecessary. It's not like we are gonna see this player tier list on the front page of this thread any time soon. I also like Tomato's point on how both the metagame and the players are constantly changing, making it difficult to keep a tier of this sort accurate.

I also want to note I am not against friendly discussion at all so don't get the wrong message from all of this. But I still believe that practice, dedication, and collaboration within the community are gonna be some of the most crucial factors for improvement, and will result in a much quicker progression in player skill. If debate is needed, then it would probably be best in the form of advice while the game is actually being played with that particular player.

That's my scoop on it. Do what ya gotta do guys and good luck!

Edit: A tier list for the best looking Smashers seems much more viable. James G for S tier suckaz.

 

[Dr. Grandpa]

lol i miss this region my favorite =)

 

[Acton]

Although I believe having that special "competitive flame" and a solid mindset will help the player in the long run, I think there are much more successful approaches in achieving this than making a tier list.

Like I always tell Matt, I nearly disregard smashboards completely yet I am improving at a much faster rate than many of the players in our region. I also only play the game on the day of tournaments. I am not saying that all players can have success in the same methods that I do, but it is a solid point that should be mentioned. I find some things such as Matt telling me what to avoid in matches, and also playing friendlies with me using my upcoming opponents' characters has done much more for me than a smashboards discussion.

Of course, it is blatant that some players are superior to and more dedicated than others, and its not a sin to state an opinion on it. But in the end, I believe the most important factor in settling these debates, and more significantly, benefiting the community as a whole is sticking to the facts rather than assumptions.

A good example I could think of was the tournament yesterday. Acton stated to the other players during my loser's final matches against 1337-0 that "JamesG is the underdog" and emphasized that me beating 1337-0 would be an upset. However, when I defeated 1337-0 3-1 in the set, Acton quickly changed his mindset, stating that "JamesG is clearly the better player" and implied that he didn't have a single doubt that I would win. So what sort of results do these debates yield in the end? It looks to me like a huge jumbled mess in which people constantly contradict themselves and lean too heavily on assumptions.


We have already constructed a Power Ranking based on tournament matches and placings, which is already reason enough for people to strive to be better. Given that, while a player tier list could be influential, I see it as unnecessary. It's not like we are gonna see this player tier list on the front page of this thread any time soon. I also like Tomato's point on how both the metagame and the players are constantly changing, making it difficult to keep a tier of this sort accurate.

I also want to note I am not against friendly discussion at all so don't get the wrong message from all of this. But I still believe that practice, dedication, and collaboration within the community are gonna be some of the most crucial factors for improvement, and will result in a much quicker progression in player skill. If debate is needed, then it would probably be best in the form of advice while the game is actually being played with that particular player.

That's my scoop on it. Do what ya gotta do guys and good luck!

I think there is a big difference between "assumption" and "opinions" in relation to discussions such as these. What I would personally define as an "assumption" is something you believe to be fact. Something I would define as an "opinion" is something sort of like a hypothesis where its a conclusion that I've come to based on the circumstances I've witnessed, but something that is also not clearly factual and is open to discussion. When I state an opinion I expect people to state their opinions in regard to mine. When I assume something, I believe it to be fact.

For instance you said your post, "I nearly disregard smashboards completely yet I am improving at a much faster rate than many of the players in our region." This to me comes off as an assumption. I'm not sure what you base this on, but to me it clearly seems like you think its a fact.

In relation to your quote about what I stated about your losers final match vs 1337-0. I stated that you where the underdog because from a tournament perspective you where since you lost to 1337-0 in the winners bracket. I had a discussion with you earlier that day about how I did think you where the better player, and how you had felt you had chocked against 1337-0. I honestly don't recall saying that "JamesG is clearly the better player", but I say a lot of things absent mindedly. Unless I'm being dead serious I usually prefer for people to not read into what I'm saying to much and assume the worst. People do though and I realize that.

To me, one of the most important things to keep in mind is to look at what your saying critically and not try to make any assumptions. People usually do contradict themselves though, and that's what's great about these sorts of topics. Topics such as these enable others to point out the flaws in your logic so that you can come up with a better chain of thought.

I don't think anyone takes the PR at face value within the region and see's it as hard fact of where people stand as far as skill goes. Players aren't represented due to inactivity, and tier list show the gap between x an y player. For instance I'm ranked 10th and your ranked 9th, yet there is a big gap there.

I think discussion about player made tier list that aren't official really shows insight where power rankings fail at showing anything.

 

[VibeSlyph]

A player tier list isn't really that bad of an idea but here's the thing;
Nobody cares about anything below top tier, and top tier already exists as the "Power Rankings."

And then, on top of that, there are "Honorable Mentions" Which would be considered A tier.

and then what? We have the rest of our small community as B and C tier? That would be pointless.
Basically. If you want to be on a "Tier List" Man up and become a Top 10.

 

[Gaia_x]

Vibes mommy signed him up for apex.

 

[JamesG]

Video games are more fun than girls half the time anyway. lol. Sex included.

so this acton kid.

Hes a pretty cool guy.

Eh takes Curas **** more than frannie (love you too babe =P) and doesnt afraid of anything.


EDIT
now that he brought it up, im gonna go play some aib ladder, feel free to get at me

Have fun on Allisbrawl.com, while I'm ****ing my girl.

 

[VibeSlyph]

Have fun on Allisbrawl.com, while I'm ****ing my girl.

**** yes...

Vibes mommy signed him up for apex.

It's 60 dollars, I didn't have to spend :3.

 

[Tomato]

I don't think I'll be attending anything as large as Apex unless it's around the block from me. I could totally see myself wasting all of my money traveling there only to get crushed lol.

 

[Gaia_x]

With that confidence of course you'll get trashed lol

 

[VibeSlyph]

I don't think I'll be attending anything as large as Apex unless it's around the block from me. I could totally see myself wasting all of my money traveling there only to get crushed lol.

You wouldn't be wasting money, if you placed top 4. ;D

 

[eeveee]

if eevee doesnt get above a 4.0 (i'm expecting a 4.0005) she should be ashamed!!!!

lol jk eevee so studious =)


ps every1 im 21 right now

Happy birthday! Or congrats if you've been 21 and didn't say anything till now

ohh by the way I received two B+s during the semester. my mom wasn't elated

 

[eeveee]

Epiphany. **** I can't picture all of us getting old without laughing.

 

[Spamus43]

Stuff...

Like in school I was rated as the '3rd Decile' in my graduating class, which is essentially a parallel of a tier. So in my case, that means I was ranked between something like 70-100 in my class of 366 or some number around there. I could have been 70, but the person who was ranked 69 is a whole tier up & in the 2nd Decile. Seems a lot more of a jump than one rank is, doesn't it?

... Other stuff

First of all, that's not what a decile is. At all. It in no way parallels a tier. To create deciles you rank every person from 1 to n, then divide the ranking into 10 equal groups. The divisions are based entirely on size, rather than being placed at skill gaps (real or perceived) as they are in a tier list. So by you being in the third decile, all that says is that you fell somewhere between the top 30% and the top 21% of your class. (Or maybe it's bottom - i forget, but I figure I can give you the benefit of the doubt). In a tier list, there is a real difference between the bottom of one tier and the top of the next. In a decile (or quartile, or any similar) system the gap between the bottom of one decile and the top of the next cannot be ascertained without additional information. The more you know...



Now that that's out of the way: whatever problems tier lists may have - and to be sure, "pissing people off" is not a problem with a tier list anywhere near as much it is a problem with individual attitudes - there's also a lot to be said in favor of them, which I think people are overlooking.

Consider: Who are the best basketball players in the NBA? Now, everyone's list would be slightly different, but I bet you almost everyone would have Kobe and Lebron at the top. So who is better?

There's a strong argument to be made either way, but it's practically too close to call. A list with Kobe 1 and Lebron 2 looks just as good to me as a list with Lebron 1 and Kobe 2. In fact, by forcing a strict ranking to be used, you create the illusion that Kobe (or Lebron, if you prefer) is the better player. Instead, doesn't it seem more illuminating to call the two of the "s-Tier?" It's clear that they are better than anyone below them, which is reflected in the tier cutoff. At the same time, we don't have the illusion that one is definitively better than the other.



The same ideal holds for a Brawl tier list. [BIG DISCLAIMER: I'm only tangentially familiar with our Brawl scene, so I'm gonna assume Acton's list is accurate. Regardless of any specific mistakes I may make though, the general argument is sound]. On any given day, Goggles, PikaPika, Snakeee and Dr. G could beat each other. This is why they're in the same tier. But the Power Rankings would have you believe that Dr. G (3) is better than Pika (6). In fact, in a top 10 list, this is a pretty significant margin. But the level of separation between the two of them in the Power Rankings is certainly no more artificial than the separation between one tier and the next.


Also, who the **** is Tomato?

Spoiler

****, writing rants is fun

 

[JamesG]

It is too much of a mess to emphasize too much. Opinions will vary from player to player making it difficult to make a completely accurate player tier list anyways.

Basing it off of "who can beat who" on any given day will also distort the tier, considering that there is indeed a possibility that people in D tier than can beat people in B tier on a good day....or something like that....you know the gist.

Some people in the tier debate have already stated that people shouldn't be taking the situation too seriously , all the while not realizing that they are taking the situation too seriously for discussing it in the first place. I say just stick with the facts/numbers and reward the player with a suitable ranking.

It's not like the Power Ranking is 100% accurate itself. Some great players will be inactive, others will have a bad day, yada yada yada yada......the discussion can go on forever (look at all this controversy, and now you guys wanna make a player tier too?!....god**** lol). If you are looking at the PR as a top 10 best players list in EXACT order, then I believe you are looking at it in the wrong way.

I look at the ranking as a means of motivation. It is our tool to help the community improve and become more successful as a whole. Perhaps others should treat it this way.

I will now go hit myself for spending this much time on Smashboards.com

And then.....Back to having sex, because I'm a loser who puts it ahead of video games.

Gbye.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Player rankings is what I live for man. I REALLY want to Brawl more...

 

[da K.I.D.]

so much fun stuff going on in this thread....

@ james.
The difference is that when I play well, I get paid to play on allisbrawl.com. You have to pay to get a girl...
But when I play with people in person, I always try to give people tips on stuff to work on. Some times even in tourney matches.

@ tomato
youll still be in NYC by the time apex comes around, its only like 90 min from you max. you should really try to go.

@ mana
you and me need to go somewhere and do something that only adults can do.

@ spamus
Looking at you (aside from your height), I would have never guessed you knew the first thing about the nba.

@everyone
I feel the need to state that actons tier list was in no way shape or form meant to be "official" it was just his opinion and something to spur discussion, and personally, I think it did a great job at that lol.


EDIT

LOLLERSKATES @ at the last 3 lines of Jg's last post.

 

[VibeSlyph]

I definitely wouldn't mind a player tier list, if everyone else didn't.
It's not that bad of an idea.
The only thing is, it can be a bit biased, and isn't as accurate because it lacks the variable of consistency.

 

[Acton]

I don't think we should have an official tier list, it was just something I made to open up discussion.

 

[RTF]

Looking forward to meeting/identifying zenk, tomato, and jamesg.


I admire TeamLiquid's PR because of the well written descriptions of each player. It primarily gives insight as to why they given their rank. Ranks seem to inflict enough butthurt already despite being founded on reason; descriptions would be more meaningful. Tierlisting so few people per tier is too complicated (criteria, bias) and butthurting imo. Comparing players like that should already occur as a means for improvement/understanding. WNYStröm tiers are for fun - they are tied to ranks. After all, PR is just a tier of the top 10.

How dated does a tournament placing have to be to count less (not not count at al)? Signifying movement up/down the PR and the time of the second most recent PR would be nice, too. Idk how practical it is due to the current frequency of events. It'd be cool if Roch/etc did something similar to or joined Syra/etc's (bi)weekly events (more results, better players, better PR). I wouldn't want to polarize the regions more than the current brawl/melee hotspots tho. I think enough people are already geographically limited as is.

In lieu of birthdays, (Manas, mine, anyone I'm unaware of) I propose a smashfest and/or seriouslies next weekend.

Edit: multitrack drift

@ mana
you and me need to go somewhere and do something that only adults can do.

Something consensual... in the missionary position? If you're going to get in an e-peen war, don't open up your *******.

Spoiler

2EZ2AMtier, can't help myself

 

[Acton]

I'd drive out to rochester next weekend if a smashfest was going down.

 

[JesiahTEG]

As cool as rankings would be, that would create even more drama I think.

 

[Spamus43]

@ spamus
Looking at you (aside from your height), I would have never guessed you knew the first thing about the nba.

Ouch

10****ingOuches

 

[Sharky]

Well Frannie beats Sharky pretty well, and I don't think he'd be able to take a set off of anyone in C-tier. He's most likely the overall best in D-tier though because he knows a pretty decent amount of characters pretty well, (Yoshi,Rob,Marth) while the rest of the cast in D tier know only one character pretty well.

I've beaten Frannie consistently recently as well, as mentioned above a few pages back DAMM YOU GUYS POST A LOT!!!

 

[VibeSlyph]

I've beaten Frannie consistently recently as well, as mentioned above a few pages back DAMM YOU GUYS POST A LOT!!!

How come you post so early in the morning? Lol

As cool as rankings would be, that would create even more drama I think.

It's sad we can't do something cool because people want to be butthurt.

 

[Sharky]

How come you post so late at night? Lol

fix'd. Much better.

 

[MattDotZeb]

**** Brawl.

 

[Gaia_x]

Sharky you have in no way truly beating frannie if there was a mathmatical forum to factor in play time and how hard someone try during a match(we all know and seen what your willing to do in a match for a win) I would Still put frannie way above you and I'm pretty sure a majority of the region would. you know alot about the game but over all skill still put frannie a couple months ahead of you.

 

[PieDisliker]

Reading all of these dramatic posts can't be good for my health.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Reading all of these dramatic posts can't be good for my health.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw


and cura, i think being willing to stay on the ledge for 7 minutes and throw eggs to get a win means that you are 1. patient, and 2. dont impose unnecessary limits on yourself, both of which i believe factor into smash skill.

As opposed to saying frannie > sharky because the only way sharky can get wins is by being gay, id be more inclined to say, sharky > fran, because hes more patient is will to get that W.

Currently id say that frannie is in fact better than sharky but the gap doesnt seem to be as big as you make it.

once again, this is coming from somebody that doesnt get to play you as often as you play each other.

 

[Gaia_x]

I understand why this is being said mainly cause you dont understand how fran work in terms of playing. theres a pretty obvious gap, its more noticeable for me cause ive played with both sharky and frannie a lot.
The amount frannie plays in about a month is about the same amount of time sharky plays in a week. Because of this she really doesnt understand how to get pass gay gimmick (Not referring to planking with mk or stupid sonic ****) im more refferring to egg tossing or lazers to illusion stuff like that. Sharky wins against frannie mostly by time outs. And i believe last tournament they played Sharky won game 1 due to timing her out. And game 2 frannie won (almost a time out again). And game 3 sharky won cause he cp'd to rc. A Stage frannie rarely plays on and even then it just result in sharky egg camping. Im not saying sharky isnt good cause i dont believe that. But his play style isnt very good. May work against people who dont know how to handle it (Ak, frannie, beta etc) But the people who have figured it out he'd probably never be able to surpass. Even actons figured out how to get passed sharkys gay, and now sharky has to go marth vs acton (He lost a money match yoshi vs falco a week ago).

Plain and simple. against top players. Frannie will do alot better than sharky. Cause top players can get around sharkys gay. And once you've gotten passed that theres really nothing left (being a yoshi that is)
Everyones adapted to his playstyle and frannie is coming around and learning to avoid the gay. She did beat actons lazer and illusion gay last tournament. Even though she almost got timed out with game 3 going down to the last 4 seconds. But shes learning. (Also note she beat acton wit Ics in which she picked up like a week ago).

I guess its hard to put in words. Shes probably 4th best in syracuse behind myself james and leet-0. She can probably go even with leet-0 and james when shes trying and playing well. And she can beat me on occasions as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

keep in mind, effective cps are also part of what makes somebody good.

remind me to get some falco peach matches in vs her.

she never plays with me...=*((((

 

[Tomato]

As far as me going to Apex goes, I'm also pretty sure I'm going to be up at Buffalo that time for my orientation. If not that, I probably won't be able to get off work for as many days as it would take to chill at Apex, sadly. I say chill because I'd probably get dropped in the first round lol.

 

[Gaia_x]

Its earlier august orientations shouldnt be that early.

Edit: When you get there perhaps you can convince the buffalo kids to do another Taste of buffalo tournament. Last 1 was extremely fun and id love to go up there more. Only been there once.

 

[TommyGreenShirt]

Alright!

I'm TommyGreenShirt representing Binghamton.
Sonic is my main and my first tournament ever was MLG Columbus (where I had the pleasure of facing San first round.)

I'm just startin' to get into the Smash tourney scene but I love the competitive play. MLG was the most fun I'd had in a while. I'm sure I'll be seein' you guys here and there at tournaments throughout the year, starting for me with Syracuse.

Thanks a bunch, and thanks to KID Goggles for showin' me this page.

-TommyGreenShirt