Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Louie G.]

I think when you start to determine a character's uniqueness, you really start to overcomplicate things.

I think this is a destructive mindset that makes the game stale.

I'm not saying we need to overthink it for every single character, but gameplay variety is important and there's more to Smash than just checking off the boxes. What a character uniquely brings to the table is literally one of Sakurai's main points of consideration before adding them, and has been since the start. So I think it's fair to acknowledge that, in the context of a game that has like a dozen other fast fall attacks, giving Mario Ground Pound in and of itself is not that compelling and a more creative spin on it might be in order.

Anyway, I didn't even say he shouldn't have it, I proposed a way that his could be more creatively implemented than the basic hup boom.

 

[ScrubReborn]

My idea for the Ground Pound was to give Mario Luigi's current down throw animation (which is a Ground Pound). Yeah that would technically reclone them slightly but if there's one move they can share, it's the Ground Pound.

I guess you could also make it a different attack, but ehh, there's other moves I'd prefer for a d-air and d-special instead.

 

[UserKev]

Another thing I want to address, Saffron City is a peak Smash stage. I feel like no other Pokemon stage that came after was able to outdo it. Or any stage that has a similar layout. Magicant I feel is another peak Smash stage. They manage to do their own thing in significant ways that differentiates them from typical patterns. Mushroom Kingdom 2 also has this effect.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Personally I always felt the ground pound was more associated with Yoshi. It was Yoshi who started the move after all (not counting Bowser's unnamed attack in Mario 3). So, I never saw the absence of a ground pound in Mario's moveset as weird, because Yoshi has always had it. And I associate it with Yoshi more than anyone else.

 

[AlRex]

If we’re talking about common attacks for Mario, he should have Dr. Mario’s Stomp move. That’s his main method of attack in basically every game from Super Mario Bros. onward.

 

[SharkLord]

I think this is a destructive mindset that makes the game stale.

I'm not saying we need to overthink it for every single character, but gameplay variety is important and there's more to Smash than just checking off the boxes. What a character uniquely brings to the table is literally one of Sakurai's main points of consideration before adding them, and has been since the start. So I think it's fair to acknowledge that, in the context of a game that has like a dozen other fast fall attacks, giving Mario Ground Pound in and of itself is not that compelling and a more creative spin on it might be in order.

Anyway, I didn't even say he shouldn't have it, I proposed a way that his could be more creatively implemented than the basic hup boom.

I'm of both minds here. You shouldn't give up on making a character unique entirely, or else everyone just blurs together. However, when you've got upwards of 82 characters, eventually certain things are going to overlap. Still, if there's a fun way to implement a move that's not overly intrusive but still keeps it distinct, I don't see why not

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

All I'm hearing is that Mario needs his handstand and related handstand jump from DK94 for Smash:

Its unique, it belongs clearly to him, and there's nothing more representative of Mario than a single move from 30 year old Game Boy title that Nintendo can't even be bothered to put on Nintendo Switch Online.

 

[RodNutTakin]

I feel like if Wario was introduced pre-Ware, he would've had a Ground Pound as a Down Special too.
I could see it being distinguished like this:
-Yoshi has the fastest but weakest Ground Pound
-Bowser has the slowest but strongest Ground Pound
-Wario's Ground Pound is middling in both properties, but to prevent his variant from being a master of none, if Wario hits an opponent with his Ground Pound, he bounces back up a little, giving the move a high risk and reward property off-stage (either as an edge guarding tool or a way to boost his recovery if the situation arises)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Ignore this, gonna give more thought to the subjects discussed in the edited-out post and make a bigger, more naunced post down the line.

 

[BritishGuy54]

I think the perception of Mario not having a Ground Pound is weirder if you look at the more modern Mario games. It’s been in every main game since 64.

I imagine younger fans would align the Ground Pound more with Mario rather than Yoshi.

 

[FazDude]

I'm cool with Ground Pound not being a special - I'd rather he have a horizontal movement option like the Dive. Putting it as Down Throw like Luigi would be cool, though.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm not sure I miss the Ground Pound as part of Mario's moveset too much. Heck, I don't think I even really thought about it as a possible new move for him much until reading the recent posts about it in this thread.

I don't think FLUDD is as ineffective of a move as many people claim it to be (combined with the cape, Mario is legitimately one of the best characters in the game at edge-guarding), but it'd be nice to see it changed out for something more recent or usable in situations outside of stopping or slowing down recoveries.

At the same time, though, with a lot of other characters already having similar moves with varying stats and degrees of effectiveness, I'm not convinced that Mario's standard Ground Pound would be a particularly effective move in Smash, either as a replacement for FLUDD or otherwise.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I think that, in Smash discourse, people don't understand that Sakurai's entire logic starts and ends at "what will make the most people happy?" - whether you interpret this as generous or cynical (I would argue the latter - to a grave extent even), Smash characters do not get in on their own merits, they get in based on what people want - and it's more than just fan rules Sakurai doesn't care for, I think he doesn't care for the naunces of opinion in general - that's how so many "PlayStation All-Stars" got in, not because Sakurai was being a contrarian; not because Geno was off-limits on Square's part; or trying to represent gaming history, but because those characters were heavily requested, their supporters were just on different platforms where the Smash overton window doesn't apply - I guarantee there was more Cloud fanmail daily than Geno fanmail yearly as far back as Melee, and even then, Geno got an NPC role when other, less Smash-popular Nintendo-tied 3Ps like AiAi; Layton; Fulgore; so on, didn't (and let me remind you, he was prioritised over SPACE INVADERS and LARA CROFT). That's why the K. Rool and Banjo hype train got bricked behind Henry's wall, because only Sakurai thinks that way about fan demand, not the rest of Nintendo or Microsoft, and does not make decisions with the intent of being a trojan horse (Marth was added under the assumption that he would be cut from the US release, not as a backdoor pilot) nor pay much mind to the greater nuances of fan demand. And that's part of why I find the Smash speculation empahsis on "what is most likely" so aggrivating. People are asking for Paper Mario when their movesets are him summoning the partners, not knowing that Sakurai will just prioritise whichever character ends up more popular regardless, and probably would even under the assumption that Paper Mario is as distinct a character as Yoshi is from DK and not an extension of Mario. If Banjo/Rare wasn't treated as the crack that allows other Microsoft reps to flood out of the dam, Master Chief would've gotten in. Mario could've just as easily been shaking hands with Mr. Domino if a butterfly landed in the right place, and all it'd actually say is "Mr. Domino is popular with Smash fans", not that Mr. Domino is important. The only lines I can see being drawn are the well-stated "4th party" line and maybe anything like Monika or Masked Man that's just plain dude-not-cool - it's not just that Crash and Dante's absence from Smash can't be explained as Sakurai hating the character/game or them having an inherent lesser status than the games that got in, it's that the same is true of a Big Rig or Mo Hawk & Headphone Jack, people just weren't loud enough when the decisions were being made. I dunno where I'm going with this. Sakurai is a lame roster curator, being in Smash means literally nothing, the "never say never" mentality tends to ignore the million other nevers that allowed those picks to succeed, and we all need to be more open to developing new ideas, even if your wants sincerely are the tried-and-testeds.

 

[Quillion]

I think that, in Smash discourse, people don't understand that Sakurai's entire logic starts and ends at "what will make the most people happy?" - whether you interpret this as generous or cynical (I would argue the latter - to a grave extent even), Smash characters do not get in on their own merits, they get in based on what people want

Meh, I honestly think if they had a bigger "committee" that collectively decided what characters to put in Smash (and Nintendo corporate is getting a bit more involved in it, given how they had at least some say in the DLC), the choices as to "what will make the most people happy?" would be even more sterile and corporate if anything. No single person would be able to put forth their idea of promoting "obscure game from dev with great potential" because the "committee" would default to the things they collectively know (aka the zombie food that is "the mainstream").

I think Sakurai should move on to the stuff HE wants and let someone else take over, dgmw, but I'd still hope that a potential new director has centralized roster curation. It'd allow a fresh perspective that can't be drowned out by a committee.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mario's Down B simply should've remained Mario Tornado. Thematically it fits Mario better than Doc and Luigi. And if any of the Mario Bros. should've had a different Down B, I'd pick Luigi with the Poltergeist. And Doc's Down Air should've been on Mario too.

 

[fogbadge]

Meh, I honestly think if they had a bigger "committee" that collectively decided what characters to put in Smash (and Nintendo corporate is getting a bit more involved in it, given how they had at least some say in the DLC), the choices as to "what will make the most people happy?" would be even more sterile and corporate if anything. No single person would be able to put forth their idea of promoting "obscure game from dev with great potential" because the "committee" would default to the things they collectively know (aka the zombie food that is "the mainstream").

I think Sakurai should move on to the stuff HE wants and let someone else take over, dgmw, but I'd still hope that a potential new director has centralized roster curation. It'd allow a fresh perspective that can't be drowned out by a committee.

sakurai does put in the stuff he wants though. just not exclusively

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I actually really like FLUDD - while from an inclusion perspective it's a little strange being from a poorly-preserved black sheep game on a semi-flopped console, it is a perfect move functionally for Mario's kit because it gives him two offensive moves and two defensive moves as specials, perfect for a beginner character because it nips the infamous "all offense, no defense" play style in the bud before it can develop. Brawl in general has some really clever and subtle moveset designs (I've always defending Wario's chomp and waft because how they interact with one another and bike), but it's overshadowed quite a bit by all its... Brawl-ness.

 

[Dinoman96]

I think some people tend to exaggerate how much third party characters have "taken over" Smash Bros.

I think the main reason the perspective is skewed a bit here is because of Nintendo and Sakurai's business model when it comes to Smash: the base game lineup tends to primarily be based around Nintendo characters as always, particularly ones that still appear in video games barring very few special exceptions (K. Rool because of the ballot, Ice Climbers/Mr. Game & Watch/R.O.B./Duck Hunt because Sakurai likes to add at least one wacky retro or "surprise" character every game, etc) but the DLC lineup tends to focus far more on big name third parties, with the only exceptions being popular veterans (exclusive to Smash 4 atm) and contemporary Nintendo characters that missed the boat for the base game lineup, like Corrin, Byleth, Min Min and Pythra. Ultimate's newcomer lineup very much is in line with how Smash 4's is, with the base game focusing mostly on Nintendo characters with a small handful of guests, but then the DLC took the opposite approach, being predominately third party focused.

The real problem is that Ultimate barely got to have any newcomers in the base game because the focus was, well "Everyone is Here!" so that kinda ended up indirectly screwing over most potential first party candidates (Bandana Dee and possibly Isaac come to mind) because Nintendo just doesn't seem to think of them as worthy DLC candidates. Ultimate also had far more DLC than Smash 4 did, so again that explains why the newcomer lineup for this game was so much more third party centric than previous installments.

I see a lot of these people say "I hope the next Smash just goes back to focusing on Nintendo characters" and the funny thing is, I actually think they'll get their wish: I'm certain the next game will go back to focusing primiarily on Nintendo's characters just like Smash 4 and Ultimate did...for the base game lineup. Afterwards is where we'll start getting Master Chief esque bombshells for DLC...and also returning veterans assuming there's cuts.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Mario having Ground Pound, even if used in all 3D Marios, hadn't been as innately built on him back in Smash's first two installment. When observing Ground Pound's history, it took three characters prior to him using it before it was finally entertained on his kit in SM64 (Bowser in SMB3, Wario in SML3 with Bull Hat, Yoshi in Yoshi's Island).

Meanwhile I feel that Spinning, specifically Spin Jumping, has been more of the characteristic maneuver of Mario, which would play on Mario Tornado and his former D-Air in both 64 and Melee. Mario & Luigi-games ran with this too with Spin Jump needing to have Mario be on front to be used - with exception to Partners in Time.

I feel actually that maybe it'd be about time we swapped Luigi Cyclone for Poltergust, to finally allow it to be part of Luigi's special arsenal, get rid of a somewhat overpowered one, and create a new parallel with Mario's FLUDD, whilst it pushes opponent's away, Luigi's Poltergust pulls them in.

Might be able to even hold physical projectiles and shoot them back? Hmm.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I personally don't like Poltergust as a Smash move - including how it's been used proper - because I don't really like the idea of Luigi's identity outside of Mansion being a ghostbuster if that makes sense? I think I prefer him as part of the Mario team, and Smash does that well with the subtle ways his moves mirror Mario's, I think it's cooler to hold your own without help as the sidekick Luigi from Mario platformers than it is to win as the hero Luigi from Mansion.

 

[Quillion]

I actually really like FLUDD - while from an inclusion perspective it's a little strange being from a poorly-preserved black sheep game on a semi-flopped console, it is a perfect move functionally for Mario's kit because it gives him two offensive moves and two defensive moves as specials, perfect for a beginner character because it nips the infamous "all offense, no defense" play style in the bud before it can develop. Brawl in general has some really clever and subtle moveset designs (I've always defending Wario's chomp and waft because how they interact with one another and bike), but it's overshadowed quite a bit by all its... Brawl-ness.

To me, FLUDD just isn't fun to use in Smash; the fact that it needs a slow charge and all it does is throw out a windbox doesn't make for good feel, whether it's effective in meta play or not. Add to the fact that Mario was a translation of the fireball-jump uppercut-spin shoto standard to traditional fighters until Brawl and that makes it feel even worse.

I'll always see it as one of the biggest examples of "canonizing" moveset changes that completely flopped, where all it really added was a canon reference, and that was it.

I personally don't like Poltergust as a Smash move - including how it's been used proper - because I don't really like the idea of Luigi's identity outside of Mansion being a ghostbuster if that makes sense? I think I prefer him as part of the Mario team, and Smash does that well with the subtle ways his moves mirror Mario's, I think it's cooler to hold your own without help as the sidekick Luigi from Mario platformers than it is to win as the hero Luigi from Mansion.

It definitely shouldn't define his entire moveset for sure, but it just being his grab is fine (yeah I know Luigi in Ultimate is defined by grab combos, but that's a fixable thing).

And besides, Wario has his tackle from Land and Bike from Ware, while Peach has a pan, golf club, and tennis racket in her SMB2-inspired moveset. Singular moveset changes in general are a pretty safe bet (even though, as I said with FLUDD, they can absolutely suck too).

And if any of the Mario Bros. should've had a different Down B, I'd pick Luigi with the Poltergeist.

I feel actually that maybe it'd be about time we swapped Luigi Cyclone for Poltergust, to finally allow it to be part of Luigi's special arsenal, get rid of a somewhat overpowered one, and create a new parallel with Mario's FLUDD, whilst it pushes opponent's away, Luigi's Poltergust pulls them in.

All the Poltergust really needs to be is his grab. Heck, I'd love it if instead of using the Suction Shot, he straight-up uses the vacuum; I know I plug Smash Crusade a lot, but the current version does just that.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As an attack-oriented player, I just never liked FLUDD did no damage. The custom move variation in 4 was the only time I made frequent use of it, and once that option was gone in Ultimate, I had little use for it. Edge guarding and basic knockback alone just holds no appeal for me.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

As an attack-oriented player, I just never liked FLUDD did no damage. The custom move variation in 4 was the only time I made frequent use of it, and once that option was gone in Ultimate, I had little use for it. Edge guarding and basic knockback alone just holds no appeal for me.

But that's why FLUDD and Cape exist, right? To discourage that kind of, for a lack of a better term, "unga bunga" play in new players.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

But that's why FLUDD and Cape exist, right? To discourage that kind of, for a lack of a better term, "unga bunga" play in new players.

Yeah, but the reflect properties and actual damage the Cape can do just renders it as being somewhat practical for certain preferred playstyle (at least mine). FLUDD in its base form just means I prefer Dr Mario more consistently because of his Tornado. It's probably not really a big enough problem to warrant changing Mario (given how many seem to generally like) but he's definitely a character that got less play from in Brawl and Ultimate as a result.

 

[Diddy Kong]

FLUDD was fine for Brawl. Smash 4 and Ultimate really needed to revert back to Mario Tornado, or something else entirely. FLUDD is the very first move I'd change on Mario. People complain about Cape, but at least that move is from a significant and important game. FLUDD really just sorely sticks out. It's just overall not coercive to Mario, and references the least popular of the 3D games. For no reason at all.

This is probably a popular opinion though. But I'll make it controversial, I'd take a Mario FLUDD removal as priority over revamping Ganondorf even. That's how much I want it gone.

 

[Quillion]

But that's why FLUDD and Cape exist, right? To discourage that kind of, for a lack of a better term, "unga bunga" play in new players.

Replacing a single, quite fun move (a special at that) with something that's decidedly less fun to use is NOT the way to do that.

It also doesn't help that Mario in Smash is built around quick, weak combo moves nowadays, so that just makes FLUDD even less coherent in his moveset design.

Heck, if we needed another more "defensive" option on Mario's moveset, giving Tornado a slight rework so that it can deflect weak projectiles (not reflect, as that would make Cape near-redundant) along with light flinch armor would be much better. And Tornado could be a "keepaway" move if used as an attack just to encourage it to be used for defensive approach and as a get-off-me instead of pressing for advantage.

 

[Perkilator]

At this point, my overall Smash hype peaked with Sora. Nowadays I just support whoever I think would have a fun moveset.

 

[fogbadge]

Nowadays I just support whoever I think would have a fun moveset.

that's sensible

 

[Guynamednelson]

Regarding Mario's lack of a Ground Pound, it could go hand-in-hand with how he's supposed to be the beginner character. You shouldn't want beginners to have an easy way to kill themselves.

That said, a Spin Attack could be incorporated without that risk. You could change his nair to have an animation resembling either the Galaxy version of the move and/or the Spin Jump in NSMB/Wonder without really changing his archetype, but if that happens I think he'd have to go back to having his pre-Tornado dair so it's easier to tell his nair and dair apart.

 

[SharkLord]

You shouldn't want beginners to have an easy way to kill themselves

Bro Kirby's even more of an easy baby character than Mario. My brother and I would always play Kirby as kids and like 75% of our total move usage was just down special from the sky. "Attack that makes you go straight down" was honestly way more intuitive than flood, all things considered

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

F.L.U.D.D. is honestly a very easy move to use and work with. It's not confusing at all. It takes nothing to notice it does no damage.

It's a complete beginner's move. It's barely more complicated than Stone as well, which is only barely more obvious in how it works(and it's far easier to screw that one up for beginners too). Many die to using Stone. You rarely will die to using F.L.U.D.D. Maybe the first time when you weren't aware it was changed between Melee and Brawl/4/Ultimate at best. In which case... it's just on par at worst.

 

[Laniv]

I think my actual unpopular opinion is that I find Olimar fun.

I may be deranged.

The weird thing is, I used to really like Olimar back in Brawl. But then the only three Pikmin nerf happened, and all of his flaws came into view

 

[SharkLord]

F.L.U.D.D. is honestly a very easy move to use and work with. It's not confusing at all. It takes nothing to notice it does no damage.

It's a complete beginner's move. It's barely more complicated than Stone as well, which is only barely more obvious in how it works(and it's far easier to screw that one up for beginners too). Many die to using Stone. You rarely will die to using F.L.U.D.D. Maybe the first time when you weren't aware it was changed between Melee and Brawl/4/Ultimate at best. In which case... it's just on par at worst.

I just don't like the inputs. Little kid me was used to charge moves where I hold the button, then release. "Tap to charge, press again to release" attacks just feel weird. I also didn't realize I could aim it, either, so I kept holding down and it just splashed around my feet without doing anything. It's not that complicated in the grand scheme of things, but it's not very intuitive for the proverbial Little Timmy. Plus, the fact that it doesn't do any damage makes it kinda awkward for a beginner beginner, who expects to just press buttons, do some damage, and knock opponents away all at once. Again, not that complex overall, but it's not what you'd expect from the game's designated Ryu. In comparison, Stone - Down and B, turn into a rock and squash things. It's much more simplistic and straightforward overall. and spammable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I just don't like the inputs. Little kid me was used to charge moves where I hold the button, then release. "Tap to charge, press again to release" attacks just feel weird. I also didn't realize I could aim it, either, so I kept holding down and it just splashed around my feet without doing anything. It's not that complicated in the grand scheme of things, but it's not very intuitive for the proverbial Little Timmy. Plus, the fact that it doesn't do any damage makes it kinda awkward for a beginner beginner, who expects to just press buttons, do some damage, and knock opponents away all at once. Again, not that complex overall, but it's not what you'd expect from the game's designated Ryu. In comparison, Stone - Down and B, turn into a rock and squash things. It's much more simplistic and straightforward overall. and spammable.

It's still very easy to use and not complicated at all. It never was.

And it doesn't make it awkward at all. It means it serves a clear different purpose as a utility function, not a damaging function. Which is important for a beginner character to have. Simple moves, but enough branching out to teach them other ways to play the game. Also, Mario started off loosely as similar to Ryu in a few moves, but played quite differently outside of that. Even as early as Smash 64, he clearly had a different style of play. His Anti-Air isn't that easy to hit with(unlike the normal Shoryuken) and is more of a recovery option or a combo piece. And Luigi's is most definitely not one, since it has no knockback outside of a sweetspot. Their Spin Attack is a bit closer, depending the game, but it's a combo piece in itself instead of how it functions in Street Fighter respectively, where it's not by default only for combos. Their Fireballs are also very very different. He's only a loose one(there's a lot of Shotoclones who far more resemble it, and it helps that they're games with proper inputs instead of single directional ones like this game).

In fact, Dr. Mario's is the closest to an Anti-Air proper, as it has one strong hit instead of being combo-based. Same with his Spin Attack having more force behind it(though this is closer to Mario's old one during 4 and Ultimate. Luigi's is more forceful as of Ultimate, but with Mario no longer having one as a Down B, it makes sense. Also, Mario's Down Air as of Ultimate hits the most times too, making it really different from a Shotoclone's more core design). He's really the only one to strongly fit a lot of it(only his projectile is off). Mario wasn't designed to be similar to Ryu, more that his moves made sense to fit within Smash's style(which has similarities). He's honestly barely one either way. If you pay attention to the moves added, they all made sense; Up B is a Recovery Move, B is a Projectile, and Down B is "your last option". Him spinning is just a piece from the Cape(which notably neither his original Down B or his Side B works remotely like the Cape does). In fact, take a look at the Cape move in itself from Melee and onwards. It's a utility move too. A simple one to reflect a projectile, and turns opponents around, branching out... not unlike F.L.U.D.D. The point overall is that Mario was always beginner friendly and branched out to teach new things as part of it. Beginner friendly does not mean "they never have to think about how a move functions", it means they're really easy to get into to work with and figure out. Which Mario still keeps to this day. He's just now also a rather good character due to combo options. He can both be high tier and beginner friendly, after all.

 

[ElDiablo69]

Ganon is not the worst character in ultimate. Dr Mario is.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Screw it, I'm feeling more generious towards modern Smash for once.

I don't get the "Smash comes out too early in a generation" criticism. For Melee specifically? Yeah, that game is holdover heaven and its follow-up was almost 7 years away, a small few trophies for the GCN but mostly an NES-SNES-N64 crossover following after another crossover with the exact same scope. But Brawl? That game remained quite up-to-date to the franchises represented for the rest of the generation in terms of visual designs and content (as would the Smash series going forwards for all series with one hilariously tiny exception I'll discuss later). Mario Galaxy and significant rep for generic Wii games are glaring outliers, but stuff like Skyward Sword; Xenoblade; Epic Yarn; and DKCTF would've came out at the same time as a late-stage Brawl, and early-DS/late-GBA content is quite plentiful. 3DS is arguably more centered on 3DS games than the late-stage 64 is on N64 games, with the only stages you could possibly argue as being completely unrelated to the 3DS at the end of its lifespan (no games in the series with a location like it on DS or 3DS, no older games with it emulatable on VC/Ambassador) being Corneria and the character DLC stages (small outlier in PictoChat, which wasn't accessible on 3DS, but it was on DS and the stage was supposedly intended to be based on Swapnote before the scandal so I'll allow it), and most of its DS stages are from later releases. Wii U has a decent split between modern games and non-modern games (12 out of 31 original stages are from 3DS or Wii U games). 3DS and Wii U share a strange lack of Inkling, but the Wii U/3DS was otherwise an infamous era of "sticking to basics" where very few new characters were introduced, so getting 4 modern newcomers (5 if you count Palutena, who is only really a character because of Uprising) is surprising, and all of the 1P newcomers had some kind of modern presence on 3DS, Wii U, late-stage Wii, or late-stage DS, with the one exception being Duck Hunt, a character who is more iconic 40 years later without Smash than a clean-cut half of the original 8 (everyone who isn't a Mario character, Link, or Pikachu you could make an argument for kirby or jigglypuff, but samus? fox? absolutely not.) were at their peak. Finally we get to Ultimate where they've fully embraced the promotional vehicle status through DLC - all of Nintendo's major Switch releases are repped somehow, and a lot of the weird low-key stuff too, with some of it being base game. All the new base stages sans 1 are either from Switch games or Nintendo's biggest IP in two decades. Nintendo's still squeezing juice out of Martinet's archival recordings when applicable, so the only major change to Nintendo character branding that could've influenced Ultimate if it came out later but didn't is uh... Dedede's smaller pupils. That's literally it. Start and end. Dedede's smaller pupils.

And the only major Nintendo character introduction to miss the boat as a spirit... Horace the Horse.

Everything else missed would, looking at prescedent, not have been reflected in Smash at all no matter when (personality and ability changes, characters being phased out of their franchises, franchises in general being phased out - Smash doesn't do either reworks or cuts much). This criticism tends to feel more to me like "Get your filthy BOOMER CONTENT out of my precious IP showcase game!" as if your games aren't going to be boomer games in 20 years.

 

[fogbadge]

Screw it, I'm feeling more generious towards modern Smash for once.

I don't get the "Smash comes out too early in a generation" criticism. For Melee specifically? Yeah, that game is holdover heaven and its follow-up was almost 7 years away, a small few trophies for the GCN but mostly an NES-SNES-N64 crossover following after another crossover with the exact same scope. But Brawl? That game remained quite up-to-date to the franchises represented for the rest of the generation in terms of visual designs and content (as would the Smash series going forwards for all series with one hilariously tiny exception I'll discuss later). Mario Galaxy and significant rep for generic Wii games are glaring outliers, but stuff like Skyward Sword; Xenoblade; Epic Yarn; and DKCTF would've came out at the same time as a late-stage Brawl, and early-DS/late-GBA content is quite plentiful. 3DS is arguably more centered on 3DS games than the late-stage 64 is on N64 games, with the only stages you could possibly argue as being completely unrelated to the 3DS at the end of its lifespan (no games in the series with a location like it on DS or 3DS, no older games with it emulatable on VC/Ambassador) being Corneria and Umbra (small outlier in PictoChat, which wasn't accessible on 3DS, but it was on DS and the stage was supposedly intended to be based on Swapnote before the scandal so I'll allow it), and most of its DS stages are from later releases. Wii U has a decent split between modern games and non-modern games (12 out of 31 original stages are from 3DS or Wii U games). 3DS and Wii U share a strange lack of Inkling, but the Wii U/3DS was otherwise an infamous era of "sticking to basics" where very few new characters were introduced, so getting 4 modern newcomers (5 if you count Palutena, who is only really a character because of Uprising) is surprising, and all of the 1P newcomers had some kind of modern presence on 3DS, Wii U, late-stage Wii, or late-stage DS, with the one exception being Duck Hunt, a character who is more iconic 40 years later without Smash than a clean-cut half of the original 8 (everyone who isn't a Mario character, Link, or Pikachu you could make an argument for kirby or jigglypuff, but samus? fox? absolutely not.) were at their peak. Finally we get to Ultimate where they've fully embraced the promotional vehicle status through DLC - all of Nintendo's major Switch releases are repped somehow, and a lot of the weird low-key stuff too, with some of it being base game. All the new base stages sans 1 are either from Switch games or Nintendo's biggest IP in two decades. Nintendo's still squeezing juice out of Martinet's archival recordings when applicable, so the only major change to Nintendo character branding that could've influenced Ultimate if it came out later but didn't is uh... Dedede's smaller pupils. That's literally it. Start and end. Dedede's smaller pupils.

And the only major Nintendo character introduction to miss the boat as a spirit... Horace the Horse.

Everything else missed would, looking at prescedent, not have been reflected in Smash at all no matter when (personality and ability changes, characters being phased out of their franchises, franchises in general being phased out - Smash doesn't do either reworks or cuts much). This criticism tends to feel more to me like "Get your filthy BOOMER CONTENT out of my precious IP showcase game!" as if your games aren't going to be boomer games in 20 years.

so you really think sakurai would have let that change to his character?

 

[Michele]

I feel like this might be an actual unpopular Smash opinion but here goes.

I feel like after Ultimate, one of the only realistic roads would be to make a live service / online game. They are in a bit of pickle, can't really continue without having to make heavy cuts or go down the reboot route. And I'm sure people would be displeased with a complete reboot of the series. It would be a great way to explore the series in a creative and unique manner. It would also explain why Nintendo has been doing test for multiplayer stuff, they were reportedly testing having a lot of players in big open spaces.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I feel like this might be an actual unpopular Smash opinion but here goes.

I feel like after Ultimate, one of the only realistic roads would be to make a live service / online game. They are in a bit of pickle, can't really continue without having to make heavy cuts or go down the reboot route. And I'm sure people would be displeased with a complete reboot of the series. It would be a great way to explore the series in a creative and unique manner. It would also explain why Nintendo has been doing test for multiplayer stuff, they were reportedly testing having a lot of players in big open spaces.

The main thing I'm concerned with besides the bursting of the live service bubble regarding that is that they'd make us have to re-buy a huge chunk of the SSBU roster. It's similar to why I don't want Ultimate DX to be a thing and then have FP3 be exclusive to it: I'd be forced to possibly pay $100 to keep playing the fully-updated version of a game I've already sunk hours and hours into.

One way they could turn Smash into a live service without making pre-existing customers worry about being forced to re-buy all the characters is something like the "Core Fighters" versions of Dead or Alive 5 and 6. They're free demos of those respective games that support all the DLC for the full version, and you can also choose to buy individual characters from the full versions or to upgrade to the full base game roster entirely. Of course, this would require them to go back to making DLC for SSBU, and more than just fighters. Like costumes for characters who aren't Miis. Then again that's pretty much what people who want Ultimate DX and an FP3 for said Ultimate port want anyway, just with a higher barrier of entry for pre-existing SSBU customers.

 

[MBRedboy31]

If we’re talking about common attacks for Mario, he should have Dr. Mario’s Stomp move. That’s his main method of attack in basically every game from Super Mario Bros. onward.

IMO, the most accurate way to represent the Stomp isn’t giving him Dr. Mario’s dair, it’s making footstooling an enemy play the stomp sound effect and deal some percent to them.