Unpopular Smash Opinions (BE CIVIL)

[Lenidem]

The fact that perception of likelihood within speculation tends to effect fan demand is another of a billion reasons why Smash needs to step away from fan demand.

Are we really sure about that, that fans demand what they perceive as likely? Don't they just tend to talk more about the characters they think likely? Or to convince themselves that the character they want is likely, rather than the other way around?

 

[MasterCheef]

Most of the special moves are very boring.

 

[Louie G.]

The fact that perception of likelihood within speculation tends to effect fan demand is another of a billion reasons why Smash needs to step away from fan demand.

This is kinda silly man. People either like things or they don’t, they’re interested in a character or they’re not. This is impossible to control and it’s not a direct byproduct of “hype culture”, just a clear demonstration of preference and taste. To some extent this will happen in just about any community, Smash is just the most in your face version of it.

Some people respond to overexposure negatively - hearing a million times about why Crash Bandicoot is coming admittedly soured me on him, so fair enough. If you keep having to hear about something you don’t care about there’s a good enough chance you might get bored or frustrated. But other times it works in favor, the frequency of discussion around Tom Nook or Oatchi seems to have softed the community toward them.

Highly expected prospects like Little Mac, Palutena and Inkling were at some point near unanimously liked. I think the greater issue is an aversion to new blood. It’s easier to find agreement in an older character, while newer faces need to prove themselves to the community harder. But this is stemming mostly from unfamiliarity than it is arbitrary hype or popularity. The sentiment should be that Smash fans should play more games, not that they should no longer rally behind or be excited for their favorite characters.

…yknow what, unless you mean that unlikely characters are seen as less popular. I took it the other way - and with the Skull Kid context I guess this is more obvious now - but you might have a point there. The Geno hate for example exists largely because people think his fans have an unreasonable request - similar extent of this overexposure being bothersome, this time for a character where this entitlement feels entirely unfounded. In a vacuum, would people like Geno? It’s kinda impossible to know now.

But I would say characters like Ridley or K. Rool persisted in spite of, or maybe even because of, their hurdles. And Skull Kid still places highly on fan polls after this perceived “dip”. People don’t stop wanting him, he just left the conversation after being confirmed as an Assist Trophy.

 

[Guynamednelson]

he just left the conversation after being confirmed as an Assist Trophy.

Which shouldn't be an issue when what most of us think is next is not more DLC for Ultimate, and thus AT promos should be seen as being on the table again

this is all the more reason why post-ssbu speculation feels like schrodinger's fp3 discussion

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's true that Skull Kid seemed likely back then. Even if you forget this so-called leaker and the (ridiculously funny) chair theory, Majora's Mask 3D was still pretty new at the time, the Moon assist had been shown without Skull Kid himself, and the fact that they kept Young Link's Final Smash hidden for so long really felt like they were saving Fierce Deity-Link for something - and what could it be if not for a Skull Kid reveal trailer?

But to assume that he was and still is supported because of his perceived likeliness... that seems like a leap to me. But of course, I am biased, because I want him playable since the pre-Melee area (yes, I am this old).

I'm not saying that at all.

I'm saying support gets more visible and vocal when things seem likely.

Skull Kid support has always been there.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

But I would say characters like Ridley or K. Rool persisted in spite of, or maybe even because of, their hurdles. And Skull Kid still places highly on fan polls after this perceived “dip”. People don’t stop wanting him, he just left the conversation after being confirmed as an Assist Trophy.

Funny to think that because in comparison, Isaac and to lesser extent Waluigi, kept on going with their support despite them coming in same wave of deconfirmations.

Spring Man even seemed played around being entertained for the spot during Min-Min's trailer - though the foot was once again put down about "Assists not getting upgraded within same game"-rule. So far we need to see that one broken...

I'm saying support gets more visible and vocal when things seem likely.

That in itself tending to be major motivator for some fans' true colors coming out, as they get to feel the fortune tipping really hard on their favor. The ugly things that have come out of that...

It sure bites them harder when they end up in the receiving end of misfortune, and get buried all the more under their own hubris.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

This is kinda silly man. People either like things or they don’t, they’re interested in a character or they’re not. This is impossible to control and it’s not a direct byproduct of “hype culture”, just a clear demonstration of preference and taste. To some extent this will happen in just about any community, Smash is just the most in your face version of it.

Some people respond to overexposure negatively - hearing a million times about why Crash Bandicoot is coming admittedly soured me on him, so fair enough. If you keep having to hear about something you don’t care about there’s a good enough chance you might get bored or frustrated. But other times it works in favor, the frequency of discussion around Tom Nook or Oatchi seems to have softed the community toward them.

Highly expected prospects like Little Mac, Palutena and Inkling were at some point near unanimously liked. I think the greater issue is an aversion to new blood. It’s easier to find agreement in an older character, while newer faces need to prove themselves to the community harder. But this is stemming mostly from unfamiliarity than it is arbitrary hype or popularity. The sentiment should be that Smash fans should play more games, not that they should no longer rally behind or be excited for their favorite characters.

…yknow what, unless you mean that unlikely characters are seen as less popular. I took it the other way - and with the Skull Kid context I guess this is more obvious now - but you might have a point there. The Geno hate for example exists largely because people think his fans have an unreasonable request - similar extent of this overexposure being bothersome, this time for a character where this entitlement feels entirely unfounded. In a vacuum, would people like Geno? It’s kinda impossible to know now.

But I would say characters like Ridley or K. Rool persisted in spite of, or maybe even because of, their hurdles. And Skull Kid still places highly on fan polls after this perceived “dip”. People don’t stop wanting him, he just left the conversation after being confirmed as an Assist Trophy.

I think there's a misinterpretation here: I am not saying it is bad for Smash fans to request characters, I'm not even commenting on individual character requests, I am saying that is is bad for Smash itself, the game series, to focus on appealing to fan outcry without extremely strict moderation.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

I think there's a misinterpretation here: I am not saying it is bad for Smash fans to request characters, I'm not even commenting on individual character requests, I am saying that is is bad for Smash itself, the game series, to focus on appealing to fan outcry without extremely strict moderation.

Well, so far outside of the previous big 3rd Party-waves, Smash has more or less kept on this moderation of fan outcry-based characters until Smash Ballot, at least 1st Party and 2nd Party-wise. (Ridley, K.Rool, some of the Assist Trophies or Mii-Costume'd chars definitely like Waluigi, Skull Kid, Isaac, Geno, etc...). Maybe to it's detriment IMO.


Though 3rd Parties feel kind of an exception to your point because they tend to generate plenty hype naturally, whether through the company-centric clashes or videogaming showdown vibes- even if they might be pretty foreign to Ninty-fans like Terry or Joker, as they quickly come past their befuddlement or even not-favourable first impressions.

 

[Lenidem]

As far as I'm concerned, of all of my most wanted, Skull Kid is the one that's being brought up the most, and therefore, the one that I talk the most about, and it is partially because he seems/seemed likely. But I don't want him more (or less) because of that.

Back in the ballot days, I was one of the few crazy people who took Nintendo's directive to vote only once to heart, so I put a lot of thought in it. It came down to a few characters: Skull Kid, Banjo & Kazooie, King K. Rool, and Joanna Dark. I ruled out Banjo and Joanna because they were owned by Microsoft and thus perceived as highly unlikely, and I didn't want to waste my vote. K. Rool seemed to me more likely than Skull Kid, being the main antagonist of a whole franchise, but if I was being honest, I wanted Skull Kid more. If I had to choose between him, Banjo and Joanna though... hard to say. I think I would have chosen Banjo.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Pretty much. The highest amount of build-up for a character by this point that has hardly gone unnoticed all the way since Brawl.
That alone makes Waluigi might be only "fan-favorite" character that'd be notable enough to make for a memorable addition via catharsis alone from 1st-party side.

It's such a stinking shame that after him, it kinda feels like we're probably not gonna get anymore Nintendo-characters requested for as long, or even longer, than him.
A lot of time I've been pondering will the general hype from SSB6's side on 3rd Parties be mainly from Indie games getting even more bigger attention and "victories" in means of being part of Smash, with possible inclusions like Sans or Reimu Hakurei.

__

That does make me wonder about my following current belief: I'm genuinely feeling that 1st to 2nd Party additions long requested from older generations like Toad, Dixie Kong, Bandanna Dee and C/D-listers of Nintendo have become the new norm of low to none to be entertained on the roster next to 3rd Parties - basically an inversion of how things used to be way back in Brawl-era.

Some might interject this with us still having good chances with both B-Dee or Dixie. Yet I can't help feeling the more times keep changing as it goes on with this series, with the demographics' expectations or nature changing with every game that these characters have not been allowed to board the train on (Ultimate, but SSB4 even moreso) - the more lacking in relevancy or worth of inclusion they seem to become next to more hype-inducing, history-writing 3rd-party based clashes with Nintendo's biggest icons.

You know...What does Japan think? They can't exactly have an "every character has to be the main protagonist of a Western-developed AAA IP or they aren't getting in and it would suck if they did" mentality when a lot of those Western IPs that Absolutely Have To Happen Now™ are niche at best over there and not released in Japan at all at worst.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

Ultimate's single-player content is good and the game is perfectly well balanced.

All that's really missing is a Boss Battles mode and Smash Run. WoL somewhat mitigates the latter, but I do miss the "normal" enemy variety from the last three Smash games (no, I'm not counting Wii U and 3DS as separate titles) and the Master Core's boss phases.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Windy Hill Zone is an awful stage from a pick perspective (even though it's probably my favourite big stage layout wise), it is awful even when you look at the limited perspective of the Boost games or even just Lost World... BUT it isn't as bad an inclusion as some people think.

For one thing, it wasn't made to coexist with Green Hill Zone, GHZ was on the 3DS while Windy Hill was on Wii U, which gives it a leg up against Pokemon Stadium 2; Jungle Japes; Mario Circuit U; Green Greens and probably a good few others I'm forgetting - but also, it is an aesthetically unique locale, just not a conceptually unique one - it's got that sort of curvy futuristic look you'd see in late-00s early-10s CGI kids media like Pac-Man & the Ghostly Adventures or Bee Movie, a strand of Frutiger Aero AFAIK, which - while maybe not communicating it as an alien planet without context of playing Lost World - works with the flying-in-the-sky geography to give it a bit of on otherworldly vibe that gives it a... not good, but at least existant contrast to GHZ and the many other grassy stages. That is more than I can say for Green Greens or base Mushroom Kingdom U, hell it's more than I can say for some grassy stages without a "clone", like Spiral Mountain (while not facing the Gruntilda head at least).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Windy Hill Zone is an awful stage from a pick perspective (even though it's probably my favourite big stage layout wise), it is awful even when you look at the limited perspective of the Boost games or even just Lost World... BUT it isn't as bad an inclusion as some people think.

For one thing, it wasn't made to coexist with Green Hill Zone, GHZ was on the 3DS while Windy Hill was on Wii U, which gives it a leg up against Pokemon Stadium 2; Jungle Japes; Mario Circuit U; Green Greens and probably a good few others I'm forgetting - but also, it is an aesthetically unique locale, just not a conceptually unique one - it's got that sort of curvy futuristic look you'd see in late-00s early-10s CGI kids media like Pac-Man & the Ghostly Adventures or Bee Movie, a strand of Frutiger Aero AFAIK, which - while maybe not communicating it as an alien planet without context of playing Lost World - works with the flying-in-the-sky geography to give it a bit of on otherworldly vibe that gives it a... not good, but at least existant contrast to GHZ and the many other grassy stages. That is more than I can say for Green Greens or base Mushroom Kingdom U, hell it's more than I can say for some grassy stages without a "clone", like Spiral Mountain (while not facing the Gruntilda head at least).

Honestly I approve of Windy Hill Zone for the music alone. It's level theme is an absolute banger.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Windy Hill Zone is an awful stage from a pick perspective (even though it's probably my favourite big stage layout wise), it is awful even when you look at the limited perspective of the Boost games or even just Lost World... BUT it isn't as bad an inclusion as some people think.

For one thing, it wasn't made to coexist with Green Hill Zone, GHZ was on the 3DS while Windy Hill was on Wii U, which gives it a leg up against Pokemon Stadium 2; Jungle Japes; Mario Circuit U; Green Greens and probably a good few others I'm forgetting - but also, it is an aesthetically unique locale, just not a conceptually unique one - it's got that sort of curvy futuristic look you'd see in late-00s early-10s CGI kids media like Pac-Man & the Ghostly Adventures or Bee Movie, a strand of Frutiger Aero AFAIK, which - while maybe not communicating it as an alien planet without context of playing Lost World - works with the flying-in-the-sky geography to give it a bit of on otherworldly vibe that gives it a... not good, but at least existant contrast to GHZ and the many other grassy stages. That is more than I can say for Green Greens or base Mushroom Kingdom U, hell it's more than I can say for some grassy stages without a "clone", like Spiral Mountain (while not facing the Gruntilda head at least).

I honestly wish they went for a stage from Colours instead. Tropical Resort or Planet Wisp would have been good choices.

 

[MBRedboy31]

I‘d assume the practical bonus of Windy Hill Zone is that it let them use the curved gravity gimmick also used in Mario Galaxy in two stages instead of just one. Curved gravity must’ve been a huge pain in the neck for the devs to program, and there aren’t that many games that the gravity gimmick would work with, so it was probably kinda fortunate for the devs that another game with curved gravity was releasing just in time to be added to Smash 4.

I‘m not sure if it was worth it, ultimately. I’ve barely seen anyone discuss the gravity gimmick. It just kinda feels like it is there, doesn’t it? It would’ve been interesting if we got a “tourney legal” version of Windy Hill that still has curved gravity, so that the gimmick isn’t exclusive to large stages and comp players could at least try it in less serious side events.

If they need to bring back Green Hill and Windy Hill in the same game in the future, they could always just reskin Windy Hill to be a different zone from Lost World. (I suggest Frozen Factory, personally.)

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Windy Hill Zone's biggest problem is that its status as a Sonic stage does not exist in a vacuum. Given the multitude of interesting locales from both 2D and 3D levels in the franchise utilizing Windy Hill is like having another Mario Kart track in Smash and have it be the Figure 8 Circuit. It's not a bad stage; just one that fails to demonstrate the range/potential of the franchise it comes from.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

The mentality that Smash characters should be "whatever characters people like!" is, if not valid, at least admirable on paper, but I think everyone who claims to believe that idea (including Sakurai, he's pretty open about 'make other people happy' being his sole mentality on his YouTube channel) doesn't really believe that, because if that ideal is to be taken as true, there is not only no "good" or "bad" to choice quality, there is not even a sliding scale - everything ever from Master Chief to the face you could see on the Mario 1 castle if you squint your eyes is on the same scale because someone likes it - at its best, it's a self-canibalising mentality, like a snake, that leaves nothing because it's so broad - but I think what a lot of people saying this really mean is "whatever characters the most people like!", which is uhh... a lot of things, very few if any good, "gatekeepy" or "capitalist" are the most flattering words that come to mind. The people who subscribe to the mentality of "it's all about empowering fans for what they love!" always give me the most **** for wanting my MWs, especially Bubsy and an Atari rep in particular, even though I am a fan of those franchises and not just coasting off of meme power, history, or functional convenience. (and even if I was... it would still make me happy)

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Quoting this from another thread

I don't get the "Diddy is too much like a monkey" criticism. I kinda get it with DK, even if I don't really agree, but Diddy has never really had unique abilities, except in DK64... and those abilities are already in Smash. I guess there's the spring tail, but functionally I imagine it'd be quite close to rocketbarrel (imagining NASB Rocko grounded up strong), and the DKR items, but they're in legal hell. I think a good one-sentence elevator pitch is really important to moveset design, and "gorilla fighting" or "chimpanzee fighting" is more that than "gorilla with grenades and barrels and he summons a giant ass rhino and he also shoots out of a cannon" or... whatever the alternative is for Diddy

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Characters that reference other parts of their series' field are not (and never will be) bad ideas on their own merits. In fact, there might be times when it can work very well. A lot of my proposals for characters could fall under that referencing function, to some degree.

People mostly point against the idea due to PAC-MAN, who I will concede, is the worst offender by a mile. But I'd argue that's a problem with the character depiction itself, not the basis. The way they mapped PAC-MAN's attacks makes his arsenal more of a Namco museum than a reference point for the character as a whole. This is kind of bad, not just because there isn't really a great excuse as to why PAC-MAN would be treated as this big company museum, but also because there's technically more to work with in PAC-MAN's various titles that aren't used. But for the most part, that's not an issue with the other existing characters that have done this. Toad being stuck in Peach (or Daisy) purgatory is a bit of a shame, but beyond that the princess' references work very well. I genuinely wish Dedede still threw his Waddle Dee minions, as I think it's the best overall way to represent their high popularity. Wii Fit Trainer's arsenal being all references is indicative to the oddball choice of even choosing that character in the first place.

Unfortunately, Ultimate doesn't have a lot of great examples of this working positively, though I recall K. Rool getting traction for having his boss references at his disposal. But just because Ultimate slightly faltered at the concept of reference fighters doesn't negate any potential use of it for the future. PAC-MAN is just one really bad example of this not working. Sure, they did him dirty twice, but that doesn't rank the entire idea alongside the more consistent Smash peeves I could bring up.

 

[Quillion]

The mentality that Smash characters should be "whatever characters people like!" is, if not valid, at least admirable on paper, but I think everyone who claims to believe that idea (including Sakurai, he's pretty open about 'make other people happy' being his sole mentality on his YouTube channel) doesn't really believe that, because if that ideal is to be taken as true, there is not only no "good" or "bad" to choice quality, there is not even a sliding scale - everything ever from Master Chief to the face you could see on the Mario 1 castle if you squint your eyes is on the same scale because someone likes it - at its best, it's a self-canibalising mentality, like a snake, that leaves nothing because it's so broad - but I think what a lot of people saying this really mean is "whatever characters the most people like!", which is uhh... a lot of things, very few if any good, "gatekeepy" or "capitalist" are the most flattering words that come to mind. The people who subscribe to the mentality of "it's all about empowering fans for what they love!" always give me the most **** for wanting my MWs, especially Bubsy and an Atari rep in particular, even though I am a fan of those franchises and not just coasting off of meme power, history, or functional convenience. (and even if I was... it would still make me happy)

That's only why I let it dedicate what I EXPECT, not necessarily what I LIKE nowadays.

Honestly, I think many Smash fans have major trouble decoupling their expectations and their wants.

 

[Perkilator]

Kazuya’s Left Splits Kick would’ve made more sense as a spike than a reflector.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Characters that reference other parts of their series' field are not (and never will be) bad ideas on their own merits. In fact, there might be times when it can work very well. A lot of my proposals for characters could fall under that referencing function, to some degree.

But for the most part, that's not an issue with the other existing characters that have done this. Toad being stuck in Peach (or Daisy) purgatory is a bit of a shame, but beyond that the princess' references work very well. I genuinely wish Dedede still threw his Waddle Dee minions, as I think it's the best overall way to represent their high popularity. Wii Fit Trainer's arsenal being all references is indicative to the oddball choice of even choosing that character in the first place.

You're right at least on Waddle Dees being sorely missed - Gordo Throw could use a slight tweak and bolster even broader options for it's usage, I think.


Still, wonder where this contention to "reference-filled" have come from - as I've seen this issue more prominent on character movesets in other mascot platformers like Nickelodeon All Star Brawl and Multiversus ( Delzethin demonstrated these very succintly in his analysis vids on both.)

Smash generally has struck a good balance with this, keeping reference-based moves to either Specials or other unique functions, and building the standard moves around how a character would fight like using whatever tools or appendages they have.

(At least, most of the time - there's a reason I've never been happy with Sakurai dropping the ball hard on Wario in the way he "fights" in Smash due prioritizing his own interpretation of him based on being "Gross Bizarro Mario"-image from Japanese game manual side, using that as an odd excuse to ignore Wario Land altogether for 3 games now.)


I feel like the more blank slate of a character is enough to represent an entire medium or a series at large, or functions via use of many canon skills weaponry wielded, then the reference-based movesets is very good direction to use. (, , ). There's just got to be good balance of original or believable moves for the character itself. The inverse is true too, especially with poor Falcondorf.

People mostly point against the idea due to PAC-MAN, who I will concede, is the worst offender by a mile. But I'd argue that's a problem with the character depiction itself, not the basis. The way they mapped PAC-MAN's attacks makes his arsenal more of a Namco museum than a reference point for the character as a whole. This is kind of bad, not just because there isn't really a great excuse as to why PAC-MAN would be treated as this big company museum, but also because there's technically more to work with in PAC-MAN's various titles that aren't used.

On Pac-Man, I'm guessing the way Pac-Man was built in SSB4 was also to distance him from the currently on-going Ghostly Adventures-counterpart and focus on most well-known image of him - the 1930s' Mickey Mouse of Golden Age of Arcades and of course to videogames as a whole, especially being the most iconographic character related to the medium he's from.

Even then, Pac-Man takes only two moves from other games, one which he even used in his own game before. So him doing a "borrowing from other Namco Arcade Classics"-schtick isn't that out of character.

While I guess some moves he could have had would be from World-games, I wonder would they have been seen as too deritative of other characters over what we received, namely Butt Bounce and Rev Roll.
And one can confidently assume World-games were looked through if seeing his Up Air was the air flip kick from World 2 - or maybe it's a really lucky coincidence?

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

IMO "Pac-Man uses too much from other games" is only really a valid criticism under the expectation that a Mappy or Galaga character could be playable themselves, which I very much doubt, as cool as it'd be - Pac-Man's whole identity is "the old gaming guy", and on the side "Namco's mascot", he isn't losing any individuality from referencing other games because that individuality was lost mere years after his debut, he was "The Gaming Guy" in the 80s, and he's "The Old Gaming Guy" now (that's something I've noticed in general, a lot of Pac-Man fans seem to be a bit resentful towards Pac-Man being used as a nostalgia character, despite the fact that well... he is, and was long before World) - it makes perfect sense for him to represent old Namco games because those are his two mainstream identities, a vintage character and the face of Namco.

Mappy and Galaga are the only games that "lose out" on individuality in Pac's moveset, if any kind of Smash reference is a "loss", but Galaga is point blank unambigiously part of the Pac-Man universe circa World (in fact most of the Pac-Man cast is just recycled characters from non-Pac-Man games, Pooka is part of Pac-Man's family for instance, the same could be said for one of Pac's closest parallels, Mickey Mouse, who would often interact with the early Disney movie cast like Dumbo and Jiminy Cricket in the 50s/60s), and while Mappy's in-universe connection to Pac-Man is a bit looser and mostly through games that could be described as crossovers, the games are joined at the hip, being connected not only by their time period but also their ragtime and 40s chase cartoon influences within both aesthetics and gameplay - it comes off less to me like "giving Mario a Master Sword because he's Nintendo's mascot" and more "giving Mario the Poltergust in PSASBR because Luigi has a snowball's chance in hell". If playable Mappy, Goro, or Galaga spaceship in Smash becomes a possibility some day for whatever reason, we'll talk, but for now, this is the best it gets for Namco's misc. stuff, and shifting to a World based design would mean less games are shining bright, games that are more iconic than World, in a place where they otherwise can't.

 

[MasterCheef]

smaller characters are not hated enough.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

smaller characters are not hated enough.

That's really not true - I've lurked on probably every active public forum where Smash, as a game, is criticised in-depth, and small characters like the rats do get a very large amount of hatred from competitive and psuedo-competitive players, and most non-Smash platform fighters either make concious efforts to balance out small characters or outright don't have them. (the only non-Smash tiny I can think of is Oblina in NASB1 - who is extremely weak (by NASB1 standards) and has zoning tools in a game that's mechanics are actively anti-zoner. Maybe CatDog and Orcane count if you don't account for their horizontal length and the prior's frequent stretching? Not counting MVS since that's not going for the sort of audeince that would have such a gripe)

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Here might be quite an eyebrow-raiser for many here:

I'm feeling it'd be actually time to change out Luigi's long-running taunt where he kicks the ground bashfully to something less uh, self-deprecating on himself. It had mainly served to allude to him being the often forgotten second banana to Mario and wanting that sliver of his fame, blowing to full-on envy as seen in Brawl's Negative Zone. While that was quickly retired, Sakurai laserfocusing on this aspect of him feels a long outdated with how he's had complete 180 from that kinda status since the 2010s.

That's really not true - I've lurked on probably every active public forum where Smash, as a game, is criticised in-depth, and small characters do get a very large amount of hatred from competitive and psuedo-competitive players.

Olimar and Pichu IIRC got patches related to address this (I think it was mainly the latter).

 

[MasterCheef]

That's really not true - I've lurked on probably every active public forum where Smash, as a game, is criticised in-depth, and small characters like the rats do get a very large amount of hatred from competitive and psuedo-competitive players, and most non-Smash platform fighters either make concious efforts to balance out small characters or outright don't have them. (the only non-Smash tiny I can think of is Oblina in NASB1 - who is extremely weak (by NASB1 standards) and has zoning tools in a game that's mechanics are actively anti-zoner. Maybe CatDog and Orcane count if you don't account for their horizontal length and the prior's frequent stretching? Not counting MVS since that's not going for the sort of audeince that would have such a gripe)

Maybe hopefully they can be appropriately nerfed next game to be more like Sheik.

 

[Opossum]

Not counting MVS since that's not going for the sort of audeince that would have such a gripe

Actually this is something that comes up in Multiversus, too...mostly with Gizmo, who had to get nerfed several times because the combination of his small size and the potency of his kit was too much.

Though funny enough the game also has the opposite issue as well...because they made the characters bigger across the board after the beta but didn't increase the size of the blast zones, the Iron Giant ended up being straight up broken for a long while. Even now he's still one of the strongest characters in the game after countless nerfs (please for the love of god just extend the blast zones).

 

[MasterCheef]

Though funny enough the game also has the opposite issue as well...because they made the characters bigger across the board after the beta but didn't increase the size of the blast zones, the Iron Giant ended up being straight up broken for a long while. Even now he's still one of the strongest characters in the game after countless nerfs (please for the love of god just extend the blast zones).

I always felt he should be a boss. It never made sense to me to make him playable. Personally i would have preferred the Megas XLR character instead.

 

[Laniv]

Maybe I'm a little bit biased but

Out of all the duo/trio/multiple characters working in tandem fighters, Ice Climbers and Banjo & Kazooie are really the only ones that are actually fun to play, aren't they

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Maybe I'm a little bit biased but

Out of all the duo/trio/multiple characters working in tandem fighters, Ice Climbers and Banjo & Kazooie are really the only ones that are actually fun to play, aren't they

I mean, aside from transformation characters, and I don't think you're talking about them, what's even left? Duck Hunt, Rosalina and Olimar?

There aren't a lot of tandem fighters in the game.

That aside, I take offense to your comment.

Duck Hunt is the only fun one.

 

[Laniv]

I mean, aside from transformation characters, and I don't think you're talking about them, what's even left? Duck Hunt, Rosalina and Olimar?

There aren't a lot of tandem fighters in the game.

That aside, I take offense to your comment.

Duck Hunt is the only fun one.

Yeah, it was really just those three. Rosalina is too clunky and campy and bland, Duck Hunt never really clicked with me, and Olimar... has not really been fun since Brawl

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah, it was really just those three. Rosalina is too clunky and campy and bland, Duck Hunt never really clicked with me, and Olimar... has not really been fun since Brawl

I think my actual unpopular opinion is that I find Olimar fun.

I may be deranged.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I was about to post about how weird Olimar's Smash moveset design is, but when I was writing, elemental attacks came up and like... what the hell are elemental attacks??? Why are there spirits and stickers that basically only exist to enhance two of Mario's moves total? Why is the blue Pikmin immune to Isabelle's down smash specifically? What reason beyond "staying true to the lore" is there to split up PSI and magic? what gameplay function does distinguishing between "hand" and "elbow" attacks provide? What the hell is this? What the HELL is THIS??? This isn't like maddening or intrusive, it's just weird. Weird game design.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

What the hell is this? What the HELL is THIS??? This isn't like maddening or intrusive, it's just weird. Weird game design.

Of course it's Dedede who gets an effect named after him.

Maybe I'm a little bit biased but

Out of all the duo/trio/multiple characters working in tandem fighters, Ice Climbers and Banjo & Kazooie are really the only ones that are actually fun to play, aren't they

I still like Duck Hunt a ton though - wish they'd buff 'em some bit in next installment. Olimar I wanna try but he does throw me off with having to adjust on his small hitboxes.

 

[fogbadge]

I like olimar and the duo

 

[Oracle Link]

1. Small Characters are 100% necesary in most franchise fighters even in dbfz GT/kid Goku was a really important part of the franchise that HAD to be represented!

Imagine if smash cut olimar or kirby or heavily nerfed them that would suck ass!
Like its fine for oblina to be weak as i never heard of her prior to nASBS release but kirby being nerfed into oblivion would suck!
(at most remove his cheese tactics heck i dont even use them against people)

2. I dont care if the small links are pretty mia in 3d zeldas its insulting that nearly everyone wants to see them gone! They are the second half of link!
Link is a badass swordfighter with some really goofy stuff too he cute and cool even as an adult And he started as a kid and still has like double the games were hes small! The fact that 2d Zelda gets so disrepected PISSES me of almost all 2d Zeldas are really great and have some design stuff they do better than 3d!
(like bringing back side characters or having better enemy designs imo)
I especially dont get how you wanna see The small links gone yet keep Sheik? Sheik was in 1 game and had her canon design in only one smash and has no canon moves i mean for the sake of peace keep Sheik But only keep her if you have a lil guy!

3. Sonics "boring ball Moves" Are a much better representation of his character than generic kicks! 'I agree his character needs a heavy rework...
Beacuse of frontiers! That was the first Mainline game were he meele attacks foes! And it feels like sonic still he should atleast have arround 8-12 Ball unique themed attacks! I mean who thought making Sonics dash aatck from a spin, to a spin kick into a KICK was a good idea keep the spin kick it looks so much better!
Sonic attacks via his ball form or boosting! Thats like complaing About Links sword moves and saying he should use crossbows or do sumo instead!

Of course it's Dedede who gets an effect named after him.

I think its because he has a hammer!
So calling it the hammer effect would be more acurate!
But TBH his effect should have stars to reflect the projectiles you can suck up!

 

[UserKev]

I feel like I'm slowly becoming obsessed with Mario eventually getting his iconic Ground Pound at some point. Another reason I'm so in hope of a moveset costumization feature since it'd make obscure moves like Captain Falcon's 64 A forward Smash kick nonobsolete again. I miss that kick o_o

 

[Louie G.]

Mario, out of anyone, should probably have the Ground Pound. But I think at this point it becomes kind of a question of freshness... is it that exciting to give Mario a move that a bunch of other characters already have some variation of? You already have the general idea covered through Yoshi, Bowser, and Kirby in a more abstract way just in respect to a quickly plummeting special attack.

To be fair I think Mario can at least get away with having more "generic" moves as a character who is essentially supposed to cover the scope of Smash's gameplay to begin with. Giving him a fast fall move gets you acquainted with a common feature in the game... but that's to imply Kirby isn't also something of a "tutorial" character who has the same thing. When factoring in canon it's no question, it's one of the biggest absences in his moveset. But putting it in the context of Smash, it's a little underwhelming and derivative on its own. I don't know how I feel about it overall.

I think my approach would be that Mario's Ground Pound gives him an extra bounce when he makes contact, more spiritually similar to how he attacks in the RPGs, just so you give him a unique quality that these other attacks don't have and you get to further emphasize one of Mario's most important core abilities. Which is, yknow, bouncing on people's heads. But even then you have Greninja and the Belmonts who can effectively do the same.

 

[UserKev]

I think when you start to determine a character's uniqueness, you really start to overcomplicate things. This is what I been saying since I addresses the issue in the critique Smash thread. I think the GroundPound traditionally works so well that the characters that do use it are a minority. I really don't see why not, especially when Mario is a much older character.