Tier List Speculation

[dettadeus]

My style is different from JCaes but yes it focuses a lot on projectile play (because I believe the Gyro is about as good a tool for ROB as his boosts are). If I could ever manage to be on a recording setup I could actually show off how smoothly it flows.
Basically every reworked character builds their gameplay on a foundation of gimmicks. ROB's boosts and boost aerials are a gimmick, regardless of how good they are. ROB himself is a very gimmicky character because he plays like literally no other character in the game, and all his stuff will still be called gimmicks down the road just because people are unfamiliar with him.

I found the new Nair in particular hilarious because at one point playing it at EVO I did a quadruple Nair combo on some Falcon player (on the left side of WarioWare) which ended with a Boost Nair off the top. It killed at like 80%. I do agree that the other angle was a nice surprise when trying to boost Nair back on stage, but in general usage it will always kill faster vertically than it will horizontally.

I wouldn't put myself on the same level as JCaes per say. I would put my ROB on the level of his ROB but as a player I'm not as good at some things, like adapting quickly, so obviously I don't perform as well. I'd like to do a MM with you at WHOBO if possible.

 

[MrBigstuff]

inb4 conspiracy theories JCaesar nerfed Oracle's playstyle so he could be the best ROB.

I'm not saying that happened. Not at all. But somebody probably will think that.

 

[Kink-Link5]

what...perhaps you didn't get what I was saying. I was simply pointing out a situation where Falco using his up-b would result in him dying vs a Marth. I didn't say Marth had a better recovery...I didn't even mention his recovery....

So you're saying Falco has a bad recovery because he dies in the same situation Fox would instead?

There's no reason to "just point something out" if you aren't trying to say something from it. Considering you stated just a post before that Fox had a better recovery than Falco, it isn't a stretch for someone to assume that that is what you are insinuating when you say something like "When Falco tries to recover he gets gg'd"

 

[leelue]

I'd really love to watch a video of any one of these tournaments you mention as most tournaments I know of go with 4 stocks per match and you seem to be implying that you either JV 6 stocked or at least freshman which is under 40%, most if not all your opponents. I'd appreciate it if such video featured a vivid P:M player as your opponent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-cHb9iMlw

This is the most recent set I won at a tournament. Count the total number of stocks I have remaining (and I blatantly threw one away in the mario match because sonic used to be fun like that).
The only people I've ever not completely bodied are people who have beaten me (Ryoko, Eli, Nintendude, M2K, Chillendude [though I did win our match in losers' finals], and Rolex). Oh, and I think when I played Cmart his luigi gave me trouble.

On topic, Falco was waaaay easier to gimp than fox for me. Since that's all the fox/falco knowledge I have, I gotta give the edge to fox here.

 

[Oracle]

inb4 conspiracy theories JCaesar nerfed Oracle's playstyle so he could be the best ROB.

I'm not saying that happened. Not at all. But somebody probably will think that.

PROJEC M BUFF ROOM 2013 THEY HAVE TO NERF MY CHARACTER BECAUSE IM TOO POWERFUL

 

[Nausicaa]

Edit: Also lol^

F-Tilt is actually functional now. That's all I care about (for now), because it's awesome-looking.
Otherwise, Lucario with a Charge is still half-broke with that crazy approach and options around it. Such sweet work they did with this character.

I miss ROB's 2.5 B-air. I mentioned it immediately in the 'impressions' thread, but that was my favorite thing to try landing obnoxiously-often with the character. Now it's less odd, but I think it's more... flexible.
Less cool, but it's aight.

 

[leelue]

what happened to rob bair?

 

[\Apples]

Falco also doesn't have a hitbox on his up-b. Plus, I guess I kind of understand what you are saying about Fox's recovery, but then I just think about all the Fox and Falco matches I've watched in Melee and how often a Falco would have been saved if his up-b had a hitbox, or went further than it did.

I mean, the point that Fox can use his recovery from further away means that in many situations where Falco would just die, Fox actually makes the opponent have to edgeguard. And even in top tournaments, you see pro players messing up edgeguards, and those being the mistake that turns the tide. I'm not saying Falco's recovery is bad, but it seems silly to say it's better than Fox's.

I didn't say it was better than Fox's. I chose my words carefully.

 

[dettadeus]

what happened to rob bair?

The lingering hitbox was changed to match the animation (it went from lasting 15 frames to like 5) and it no longer resets your vertical momentum when the booster starts.

 

[DMG]

That's ridiculous

MONEY BACK MONEY BACK

 

[Bryonato]

So why were all these changes necessary? ROB was in an okay place wasnt he?

 

[DMG]

Yeah he had lame throws for things and the Nairs stuff stuff

("Why are we talking about ROB? Let's go get some Tweety Bird Ice Cream") - Mindtalk

 

[Archangel]

So you're saying Falco has a bad recovery because he dies in the same situation Fox would instead?

There's no reason to "just point something out" if you aren't trying to say something from it. Considering you stated just a post before that Fox had a better recovery than Falco, it isn't a stretch for someone to assume that that is what you are insinuating when you say something like "When Falco tries to recover he gets gg'd"

it's not a stretch to insinuate that I'm saying Falco's recovery is worse than Fox's. It is a stretch to confuse that with Marth's recovery is better than Fox/Falco's....

My point is simply that there is a certain distance where you don't go out there to try and kill fox. If you do there is a good chance with most of the cast that you won't safely return. Also there is a good chance that his wall of fire will hit you and then you'll end up being shined while you are trying to recover. Therefore, it's a better Idea to wait and try to edgeguard him Which leaves him with a chance to come back. Falco on the other hand when hit a certain distance is just dead. and even if he decides to up be. With alot of the cast you can hit him with a projectile or jump off and aerial him and he's dead. He doesn't have the chance to just fall out of attack range and recover. For that reason alone Falco will never have better recovery than Fox.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah he had lame throws for things and the Nairs stuff stuff

("Why are we talking about ROB? Let's go [talk about game and watch for the nth time!]") - P:M community.

So we got vids up of King DDD, I think both from Fly and from heyseuss. Has anyone's opinion about the character changed?

 

[Rat]

After watching less than an hour of Professor Pro's (http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/439407078?t=116m30s) I'd like to suggest a change to your tiers lists.

Top Tier
Snake
Fox
Falco
Shiek
etc.

 

[Juushichi]

What if... Professor Pro was PM's Armada.

Mind. Blown.

USA needs a hero. They need a Mango*.

*that isn't actually Mango.

emp_put_snake_in_top_tier

lol even Alpha Dash called new Dthrow garbage. It is though. I feel bad for ROB.

 

[leelue]

So why were all these changes necessary? ROB was in an okay place wasnt he?

because you shouldn't hold the pmbr to a decision just because it was a certain way. Objectivity is a good thing, and just because something is better for a character doesn't mean that it's the most reasonable way to do it. Minor tweaks = Polishing.

also, snake is a very, very, very strong character.

 

[DMG]

I got to play heyseuss in bracket at LTC, and I saw Fly play in person too. My opinion changed slightly: I don't think D3 is helpless but he seems like the least satisfying character to play as. I can't speak for them because obviously they probably enjoy D3, but honestly he looks out of place in Melee. His neutral game is janky... Hell the character in general screams janky. When D3 gets momentum, it's not a crazy adrenaline filled situation where if you pick wrong you die 80% of the time. It's more like a dull but lingering pressure that eventually you'll probably get through without dying. As good as Fly was, I honestly don't know if he could have placed the same with 100% D3. Small annoying characters led him to go Sheik (I love this guy, I would do the same thing!)

 

[Juushichi]

I got to play heyseuss in bracket at LTC, and I saw Fly play in person too. My opinion changed slightly: I don't think D3 is helpless but he seems like the least satisfying character to play as. I can't speak for them because obviously they probably enjoy D3, but honestly he looks out of place in Melee. His neutral game is janky... Hell the character in general screams janky. When D3 gets momentum, it's not a crazy adrenaline filled situation where if you pick wrong you die 80% of the time. It's more like a dull but lingering pressure that eventually you'll probably get through without dying. As good as Fly was, I honestly don't know if he could have placed the same with 100% D3. Small annoying characters led him to go Sheik (I love this guy, I would do the same thing!)

i feel like he's going to feel janky

or he is going to be a simple and good (but eventually not so good) character because that's his archetype (grappler, btw).

he has a grab, a mediocre projectile, somewhat long range (but not too long, don't know why ftilt can't be a good move) a ****ty recovery and a grab.

i know that we already have a fat hybrid sheik (Charizard)

but let's actually have a fat sheik.

 

[leelue]

Ftilt is a fine move what do you mean

 

[Kink-Link5]

F-tilt is an okay move that is luckily attached to a character with a good crouch cancel to dissuade jump as an automatic counter to it.

Though empty jump does automatically put DeDeDe in a situation where he has to go on defense after using f-tilt.

 

[leelue]

it's not totally amazing but it hits people,when other moves won't. I actually wish more characters had a move that you could use to poke with but can't be followed up. like a short range projectile, but not.

 

[Professor Pro]

After watching less than an hour of Professor Pro's (http://www.twitch.tv/jolte0n/b/439407078?t=116m30s) I'd like to suggest a change to your tiers lists.

Top Tier
Snake
Fox
Falco
Shiek
etc.

LOL I'm glad you enjoyed our stream and I provided some Wolf tricks for you even though I wasn't really too sure what I showed you lol.

I still felt I could have played better during some of the matches, but that's mostly because I was playing Melee and it was the first time I picked up PM in a while.

Hopefully more people tune in next time.

 

[Jolteon]

Professor Smash has a better Snake than Professor Pro.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I got to play heyseuss in bracket at LTC, and I saw Fly play in person too. My opinion changed slightly: I don't think D3 is helpless but he seems like the least satisfying character to play as. I can't speak for them because obviously they probably enjoy D3, but honestly he looks out of place in Melee. His neutral game is janky... Hell the character in general screams janky. When D3 gets momentum, it's not a crazy adrenaline filled situation where if you pick wrong you die 80% of the time. It's more like a dull but lingering pressure that eventually you'll probably get through without dying. As good as Fly was, I honestly don't know if he could have placed the same with 100% D3. Small annoying characters led him to go Sheik (I love this guy, I would do the same thing!)

I do indeed personally enjoy using DDD. He's definitely my favorite character to use and I would never switch off him if I didn't feel I had a better alternative at my disposal. As for why I switched off him at certain times, I think I was more to blame than the character, although not entirely. A few of the times I switched off him were when I simply didn't understand the character I was fighting against well, and a generic playstyle with a uniformly strong character like Sheik or Marth still tends to work against weird, small characters (plus I think DFW is generally fairly weak against Sheik). I also came into day 2 without much confidence in my DDD after having to switch off him a couple times and generally feeling sloppy with him on day 1, and I actually intended on just going Sheik/Pit/Marth; I only reconsidered that when the underdeveloped-good-character-secondary approach was failing against Sethlon in LSFs. That all said, the only character I played in bracket that I think I might have had any real need to dodge with DDD was Ness, a character that I actually already did understand well coming into the tourney, but simply did not want to deal with as a mostly slow, large character, especially when I have a trans ninja in my pocket. It's a weird life.

 

[Strong Badam]

My opinion of DDD remains unchanged after LTC. Not spectacular, but solid in his own right.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think he's pretty bad. :3

 

[Scythe]

he's okay, he probably has mostly losing or even matchups though

 

[Plum]

guys
guys
...
guys
fox and falco trash tier
frame one move with almost endless utility isn't invincible anymore
why even play them
new tier list
S tier
everybody because nobody is allowed to be average
trash tier
fox
falco
super trash tier anyways
ness because he isn't allowed to be good in smash games, cardinal sin

 

[Ripple]

DDD blows up ganon really hard though. :D

 

[Plum]

I mean, don't most characters?
Dorf has to outplay people so hard

 

[Juushichi]

Don't most characters?

#normalizepkfire

EDIT: CURSE YOU PLUUUUUUUUUUUUM

 

[9bit]

I love all this DDD talk. Spread the word! Power to the people! Free Tibet!

 

[Deleted member]

i still think DDD is terrible. at least ganon has downthrow > hilarity combo.

 

[DMG]

He's got those jazz hands man

 

[RKM]

 

[Deleted member]

real talk ganon's ftilt is the best move in this game. sometimes i just walk at people do do it. sometimes i walk at people and then wait because i have them conditioned with fear. it's not even good, but somehow still amazing at the same time?

downangled ftilt is the curb stomp. wins games imo

 

[DMG]

Angled Ftilt in any direction is properly referred to as "The Stanky Leg"

 

[Oro?!]

He's got those jazz hands man

No that's Reflex.

 

[FourStar]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Sonic is still a freaking amazing character. I barely use the guy and when I do, I do relatively well with him. He's still the fastest in the game, has super quick moves, has a really good spike, and he still has a fantastic up-b along with homing attack.

Get faster with your tech and fingers and practice moving with him. He takes quick reaction time and fast fingers to use, but once you get them, he becomes beast.

yeah i understand he has really good tools still but he was much better in 2.5. and it pisses me off that the spin dash cancel is a little bit slower now