Tier List Speculation

[MVP]

so ice climbers are 2nd best character in the game? we can do this tourney results = tier list bull**** all day....

good point... but i think fox is better imo

EDIT: what makes falco better? (100% academic question here, no bashing or arguing)

 

[ItalianStallion]

Yeah tourney results does not equal high on tier list. I once won a tournament where I went all Mewtwo. Sure, you could bring up the fact it was a tournament with only eight entrants, and the other entrants were seven level 2 DK's, but hey, those are just details.

 

[Kink-Link5]

good point... but i think fox is better imo

EDIT: what makes falco better? (100% academic question here, no bashing or arguing)

Better stage control, better close-to-stage recovery for the most part.

 

[MVP]

Better stage control, better close-to-stage recovery for the most part.

i'll give you the better stage control (lazers and such) but fox's recovery is better. i think fox out maneuvers falco too (doesn't mean better stage control, just mobility). any other thoughts?

 

[~Frozen~]

I think he said Falco's close to stage recovery is better because Falco's sideB has faster startup compared to Fox's.

 

[ItalianStallion]

i'll give you the better stage control (lazers and such) but fox's recovery is better. i think fox out maneuvers falco too (doesn't mean better stage control, just mobility). any other thoughts?

Falco's dair is a more effective tool in more matchups (Considering the many varied matchups in PM) than Fox's tools.

 

[Scythe]

because falco is better than fox in Melee

so wrong it hurts

 

[MVP]

Falco's dair is a more effective tool in more matchups (Considering the many varied matchups in PM) than Fox's tools.

but isn't shine just as effective on most of the cast members? (provided it doesn't kill as easily in PM than melee cause of buffed recoveries)

 

[Kink-Link5]

i'll give you the better stage control (lazers and such) but fox's recovery is better.

Recovery length doesn't equate to recovery quality.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Recovery length doesn't equate to recovery quality.

Actually I am curious why you say Falco's recovery is better than Fox's. Does Falco have a faster startup on side b? I do believe Falco's wall jump is better, but even with those two points, the more length that Fox has on his recovery seems way more useful and important when comparing recovery quality.

EDIT:

but isn't shine just as effective on most of the cast members? (provided it doesn't kill as easily in PM than melee cause of buffed recoveries)

Well, you pretty much made my point for me. Fox's shine isn't as useful in PM as Falco's dair. It's still really good, but not as widely useful. Since many PM characters have good and varied recoveries, shine isn't going to be the go to move. Along with that, waveshining with Fox isn't as effective in PM as it is in Melee due to character physics variety and slightly different game mechanics.

 

[FourStar]

ok sorry but does anyone feel like nerfing sonic as they did was necessary? WizzRobe is an amazing player and yeah he was broken, BUT Sonic is unusable now. i feel like they messed with sonic too much just because one player was godlike with him while all other sonic mains were not up to par. IDK just really mad they ruined sonic...

 

[ItalianStallion]

ok sorry but does anyone feel like nerfing sonic as they did was necessary? WizzRobe is an amazing player and yeah he was broken, BUT Sonic is unusable now. i feel like they messed with sonic too much just because one player was godlike with him while all other sonic mains were not up to par. IDK just really mad they ruined sonic...

Couldn't disagree with you more. Sonic is still a freaking amazing character. I barely use the guy and when I do, I do relatively well with him. He's still the fastest in the game, has super quick moves, has a really good spike, and he still has a fantastic up-b along with homing attack.

Get faster with your tech and fingers and practice moving with him. He takes quick reaction time and fast fingers to use, but once you get them, he becomes beast.

 

[Deleted member]

ok sorry but does anyone feel like nerfing sonic as they did was necessary?

in a word, yes. absolutely.

 

[leelue]

i feel like they messed with sonic too much just because one player was godlike with him while all other sonic mains were not up to par.

Yeah because I didn't win virtually every set with 5 or more total stocks remaining at every 2.5 tournament I went to at all (and to a lesser extent, 2.1)

 

[KingBlaze777]

Yeah because I didn't win virtually every set with 5 or more total stocks remaining at every 2.5 tournament I went to at all (and to a lesser extent, 2.1)

I'd really love to watch a video of any one of these tournaments you mention as most tournaments I know of go with 4 stocks per match and you seem to be implying that you either JV 6 stocked or at least freshman which is under 40%, most if not all your opponents. I'd appreciate it if such video featured a vivid P:M player as your opponent.

 

[9bit]

I'd really love to watch a video of any one of these tournaments you mention as most tournaments I know of go with 4 stocks per match and you seem to be implying that you either JV 6 stocked or at least freshman which is under 40%, most if not all your opponents. I'd appreciate it if such video featured a vivid P:M player as your opponent.

A set being generally best of 3 matches. So that's 8 to 12 stocks.

 

[DMG]

You guys never heard about the terror of Leelue?

I pity the souls. Seriously the guy bodied most stuff sans Eli.

Fox vs Falco is debatable but it's probably the least useful comparison/argument because they body the cast together in a blazing fury.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'd really love to watch a video of any one of these tournaments you mention as most tournaments I know of go with 4 stocks per match and you seem to be implying that you either JV 6 stocked or at least freshman which is under 40%, most if not all your opponents. I'd appreciate it if such video featured a vivid P:M player as your opponent.

Do you know how many carbarnicle JC 9s he's had? The 50% ratio is outdated and doesn't represent a 5 to 4 stock overcall

 

[Tero.]

no particular order to the characters. I'm simply grouping characters atm.

S(hrinking tier...meaning characters are getting nerfed out of it. but still some left)
Fox
Falco
Peach
Pit
Mario
Sheik/Zelda

A(ble to win tournaments but slightly worse in MU's compared to the S-tiers)
Link
DK
Lucas
Snake
Wolf
Diddy
ROB
Metaknight
Ivy
Jigglypuff
Ike

B(etter than given credit but overall missing compared to the very best characters)
Bowser
Wario
DDD
ROB
Ness
Ganon
Captain Falcon
GnW
Luigi
Pikachu


C(ould be better but still put up a good fight overall
Sonic
Toon Link
ZSS
Squirtle
Lucario
Charizard

That's HORRIBLE!
What version are you playing? Lucario and Zard last?

 

[Archangel]

That's HORRIBLE!
What version are you playing? Lucario and Zard last?

not last...I mean.. didn't you read the lines above the list?

 

[DMG]

Even as a group, people like Lucario being worse than Luigi is gonna feel wrong in so menu ways

 

[ItalianStallion]

Even as a group, people like Lucario being worse than Luigi is gonna feel wrong in so menu ways

Luigi S tier.

 

[DMG]

Legusta tier

 

[MrBigstuff]

so menu ways

I'll take the S tier burger with a side of Midtier fries and a small diet.

Edit to be OT: Zamus should be at least a tier higher on Archangel's list. Also, did you put Shielda in top tier, or is that Shiek and you just didn't bother to separately rank the two?

 

[Archangel]

I'll take the S tier burger with a side of Midtier fries and a small diet.

Edit to be OT: Zamus should be at least a tier higher on Archangel's list. Also, did you put Shielda in top tier, or is that Shiek and you just didn't bother to separately rank the two?

I feel like the evolution of Sheik and Zelda is simply to merge them, the speed of their transformation being increased is proof imo. So...I don't really care to rank them seperate and even if I do I feel over all they are both very good with different better match-ups. The fact that they can sort of cover eachother's weakness vs specific characters or on specific stages makes them very good together.

As for Lucario being worse than luigi...Luigi has consistantly outplaced Lucario since he was nerfed. Doesn't seem like Lucario is much different so why should I place him higher? Charizard started to better and good in some reason. However, He's been hit with a nerf bat in 2.6. Not sure why though...someone should explain that one to me.

 

[\Apples]

I don't think I've ever even half agreed with a tier list posted in this thread.

Sonic, ZSS and Squirtle on the bottom? Wario in B? Ivy on the bottom? Donkey and Diddy in the same tier? Y'all are nuts.

Sonic's run speed alone makes him insane. ZSS' uncharged blaster is absolutely ******** and her combo game is as good as Falcon's but not quite as good as Wolf's; she plays safer than Peach does, she's so hard to punish if you play her right. Squirtle has insane pressure, gimps and evasion; not to mention the completely unnecessary armor he has on 1/4 of his moves which are each perfectly fine even without the armor they've been given.

Arch, you might as well bump Wario up at least a tier and then swap your entire B tier with the entire C tier. Then we'll be looking at something at least partially agreeable.

Also on that whole Fox vs Falco shindig, I just want to point out that just because Fox's Up+B goes farther doesn't mean the character traverses the distance in the same amount of time Falco does using his. Fox can be easier to edgeguard in some situations BECAUSE he can use it from further away allowing just that much more time to react to his recovery. With Falco, it's more about hard reads at low-mid percents if you want to get the gimps on him whereas Fox you can react to all day and punish him if he overshoots the ledge.

 

[Archangel]

I might have over did it with Sonic, I mean...they nerfed the **** out of him and he just kind feels like a very fast pichu now. Like...if Pichu in melee had Sonic's run speed I think he'd be somewhere in C-tier in that game too. I do agree and have said on record that Sonic's Run speed is(and currently is probably) the only thing that will keep him from ever being bad. It's simply a matter of who's better and who's worse and that's surely up for debate at this point. I mean you stated some pretty obvious things about ZSS and Squirtle but do you really think that makes them and sonic better than everyone in B-tier?

you did a good job of pointing out the positives in 3 characters. Point the negatives out (all of them) and you'll know why they are overall lacking comparatively.s For example, Squirtle's gimmicky side-b wannabe 2.1 sonic stuff is easily beat by Using a high priority/damage attack, Grab, Shield-out of shield attack, power shield-anything you want, jumping out of the way?, not being there, idk...it really reminds me of bowser's initial release in 2.0. The more you play against squirtle the easier it is to find your way around his advantages. He's really a 1 trick pony. Good trick but just a 1 trick pony will get you down the road. After that you combine his weight/fall speed and realize he's one of the easiest lightweights to combo-kill and...idk you just kinda watch out for his little squirty tricks and then you...win. Squirtle has some good MU's he had them in 2.5, still he's just overall not that great compared to the rest of the cast.

ZSS

the line between S-A-B-C is thin in this game and at this point it's just raw speculation. In fact, I could go as far as to drop C-tier all together and absorb them into B. It's that kind of a game. Also, once again I didn't order the character's particularly yet, It's hard to say anyone is BAD tbh and that's the GOOD thing about PM imo.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Also on that whole Fox vs Falco shindig, I just want to point out that just because Fox's Up+B goes farther doesn't mean the character traverses the distance in the same amount of time Falco does using his. Fox can be easier to edgeguard in some situations BECAUSE he can use it from further away allowing just that much more time to react to his recovery. With Falco, it's more about hard reads at low-mid percents if you want to get the gimps on him whereas Fox you can react to all day and punish him if he overshoots the ledge.

Falco also doesn't have a hitbox on his up-b. Plus, I guess I kind of understand what you are saying about Fox's recovery, but then I just think about all the Fox and Falco matches I've watched in Melee and how often a Falco would have been saved if his up-b had a hitbox, or went further than it did.

I mean, the point that Fox can use his recovery from further away means that in many situations where Falco would just die, Fox actually makes the opponent have to edgeguard. And even in top tournaments, you see pro players messing up edgeguards, and those being the mistake that turns the tide. I'm not saying Falco's recovery is bad, but it seems silly to say it's better than Fox's.

 

[Archangel]

it seems silly to say it's better than Fox's.

it is silly to say it's better than fox's. It would make more sense that Falco had the hitboxes because most of the time when Falco has to use his Up-b he should never be seen again. Fox on the other hand can do much more to save his skin. The legendary Mew2king angle comes to mind.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falco can do just as many angles as Fox without the threat of overextension. A shorter Up-B length means Falco can be closer to the stage (like, say, from using his high double jump or wall jumps) and mix up his recovery more readily.

Fox's recovery is good don't get me wrong.

 

[Archangel]

Falco up-b'ing vs me as Marth. Jump out their and Fair/reverse up-b him.....the end.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Marth has a far worse recovery than either space animal and gets gimped even harder than they do, in the same matchup.

Besides which, Fox up-Bing in that exact same situation would meet the same end.

 

[Problem2]

Most of us understand how good Falco's recovery is, but the short distance DOES have negative effects on his recovery. You don't have to knock him very far from the stage in order to gimp him. Most of the time, if he's swatted away without a jump, Falco is done. Fox doesn't have this problem as badly. Also, Fire Fox is much better than Fire Bird because he can start it at a safe distance away from the stage. Opponents can go out there and hit Falco on reaction to him starting his up-b.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Falco can do just as many angles as Fox without the threat of overextension. A shorter Up-B length means Falco can be closer to the stage (like, say, from using his high double jump or wall jumps) and mix up his recovery more readily.

Fox's recovery is good don't get me wrong.

Falco has a higher double jump, sure. There's a point for Falco. Fox also has a wall jump, but I think Falco's is better for recovering (He gets more vertical distance I think). Those make sense to me. What doesn't make sense is the "threat of over extension". Most stages in PM have a stage slope Fox can up-b into at different angles to mix up his recovery without overextending. He also has the option of overextending which has actually saved a lot of Fox players due to their opponents thinking they are going for the sweetspot. To me, it seems Fox has more variety to his recovery because of the added length. He can go high, go for the ledge, go straight at the opponent, or go into the stage and follow the wall. He has a wall jump, a good double jump, and a hitbox on his firefox. Plus, just because Fox can side b from further away therefore giving players more time to react, doesn't mean he has to side b from far away. He can come in closer and do it. The added range gives him more variety.

 

[Archangel]

Marth has a far worse recovery than either space animal and gets gimped even harder than they do, in the same matchup.

Besides which, Fox up-Bing in that exact same situation would meet the same end.

what...perhaps you didn't get what I was saying. I was simply pointing out a situation where Falco using his up-b would result in him dying vs a Marth. I didn't say Marth had a better recovery...I didn't even mention his recovery....

 

[Nausicaa]

Sonic has been top tier (can win tournaments without significant issue) since 2.1
Squirtle was the same in 2.5 because of WD > F-Tilt alone, now he's more diverse.
1 Trick ponies no doubt, but they've become functional and healthy characters in 2.6
Anyone who still thinks Luigi, Wolf, Ivy, etc are 'bad' are simply out-dated by now.

In other news... most of the cast is 'high' (can compete to challenge winning tournaments on their own) or 'top' (can win tournaments on their own without significant issue) in 2.6...
So being 'top' tier doesn't really mean much.

Bottom tier on the 'fun' list, or just linearity in general that 'may' cause issue down the road? Dedede, Ganon, Falcon, Zelda, a couple others maybe. For now, they're fine.
Juuuuust throwing that out there. :D

 

[Oracle]

@detta: rob did not get buffed. He got pretty heavily changed, and most of the changes take a lot out of his game. Upair changes were pretty negligible, since the only way you get to see them are from doing full animation upairs on people above you, which is pretty unreliable unless your opponent jumps a lot, and even then boost upair is going to have more followups. You could pressure people on platforms way better with boost upair anyways (but the new airdash makes this more difficult to do quickly). Nairs angles being normalized takes a way a huge number pf uses for the move without really adding anything. Since it always sends up, you cant really edgegard with it (which was imp a great use of the move). Backair not stalling makes it really difficult to hit people with (also a few less active frames), and stopping vertical momentum made fh bair good for platform pressure, or just pressuring air opponents in general. Dthrow is obviously garbage now, but it didnt get anything to replace it with, so his grab game went from amazing to utter trash. The new dair is actually worse for comboing into, since before when it was slow, you would cancel your boost with the dair immediately, then use all the startup to control where you are going so you can be on top of your opponent when the hitbox comes out. Less time to control=harder to land. Run speed is cute I guess, but robs big advantage was air mobility, not ground.

I doubt these nerfs were intentional but they basically made my playstyle of rob unplayable. Hate to say it, but mine was probably the only viable one at high level play, since the jc style of throwing out stuff and hoping they cant deal with it is gimmicky as hell and would never work vs someone who knows what rob does. Rob is probably bottom five now, although there might be a few more robs having tournament success while the gimmick factor is still available.

And no, this isnt because I did poorly at ltc. I knew how bad rob was as soon as I got my hands on 2.6, and I mostly went lucas in the tournament.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I doubt these nerfs were intentional but they basically made my playstyle of rob unplayable. Hate to say it, but mine was probably the only viable one at high level play, since the jc style of throwing out stuff and hoping they cant deal with it is gimmicky as hell and would never work vs someone who knows what rob does. Rob is probably bottom five now, although there might be a few more robs having tournament success while the gimmick factor is still available.

The callout!

I think R.O.B. is pretty limited, too.

 

[Juushichi]

I doubt these nerfs were intentional but they basically made my playstyle of rob unplayable. Hate to say it, but mine was probably the only viable one at high level play, since the jc style of throwing out stuff and hoping they cant deal with it is gimmicky as hell and would never work vs someone who knows what rob does. Rob is probably bottom five now, although there might be a few more robs having tournament success while the gimmick factor is still available.

And no, this isnt because I did poorly at ltc. I knew how bad rob was as soon as I got my hands on 2.6, and I mostly went lucas in the tournament.

MM JC at Nerd Rage, nerd. Long set like a Bo7 or some ****. Not because I am defending JC's style of play or anything, but because it will be interesting.

 

[Tero.]

I feel like the evolution of Sheik and Zelda is simply to merge them, the speed of their transformation being increased is proof imo. So...I don't really care to rank them seperate and even if I do I feel over all they are both very good with different better match-ups. The fact that they can sort of cover eachother's weakness vs specific characters or on specific stages makes them very good together.

As for Lucario being worse than luigi...Luigi has consistantly outplaced Lucario since he was nerfed. Doesn't seem like Lucario is much different so why should I place him higher? Charizard started to better and good in some reason. However, He's been hit with a nerf bat in 2.6. Not sure why though...someone should explain that one to me.

I think they sped up Lucarios side B and down B again in 2.6
at least he feels way better than 2.5 Lucario (not as silly as 2.1 Lucario tho)