Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

yes, he was better because he was broken. LOL

 

[Oro?!]

2.1 Ike, 2.1 Lucario, 2.5 Sonic, Fox who multi shines 5 times in a row and is engulfed in flame when he nairs, and Falco who fires fully charged super scopes and has a permanent franklin badge. Sounds like a fair game. Ike is pretty low tier though.

 

[ELI-mination]

2.1 Ike, 2.1 Lucario, 2.5 Sonic, Fox, and Falco. Marth is pretty low tier though.

Fixed

 

[Oro?!]

Marth would be pretty low tier. Throw Ike's sword on there and we will call it a day.

 

[Strong Badam]

i'll update my tier list after nerd rage later this month :3

 

[Spiffykins]

I think they sped up Lucarios side B and down B again in 2.6
at least he feels way better than 2.5 Lucario (not as silly as 2.1 Lucario tho)

2.6 Lucario is still pretty bad, except as a fatty/fastfaller counterpick. So basically the same.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

So what's the general consensus on Luigi?

 

[Archangel]

So what's the general consensus on Luigi?

his down-b needs to be buffed.

Nah seriously he's better than his melee version but alot of his moves, hitboxes, and strategy seems a bit...idk...different. Some luigi mains don't want to take the time to relearn certain things.

IMO it wouldn't kill them to make his fireballs travel farther and come out faster. Give him the ability to SH-double Fireball, maybe have it cancel when he lands like falco.

idk why but...his down-b doesn't seem the same. It could be due to the change in his height but I fell like his down-b gets beat out ALOT in situations where he could match or beat the same kind of attack in melee. It's most likely due to him being taller though I think.

also, he's not extremely new person friendly either. Pikachu for example is changed to a point where you can pick him up. Mario too, Zelda too, Donkey Kong too. Luigi is just not at that point yet where he is worth learning to play or worth playing really.

 

[ELI-mination]

So what's the general consensus on Luigi?

Luigi, IMO, is around mid-tier ish. He has a lot of really good tools, but also struggles with a lot of matchups. And his recovery, although not terrible, pales in comparison to a lot of other characters. But he has great combo ability and its hard for other characters to combo him as well. He can KO effectively as well. Some matchups are disastrous though and he has trouble approaching. (Try approaching a Nikita spamming Snake with Luigi and let me know how that goes).

tl:dr
Strengths: KO ability, combos fast fallers well
Weaknesses: Recovery isn't great, has difficulty approaching

 

[leelue]

strengths- nair

 

[Professor Pro]

i'll update my tier list after nerd rage later this month :3

I am weirdly looking forward to this lol.

 

[MVP]

Recovery length doesn't equate to recovery quality.

then what specifically makes his recovery better then if not length?

falco's second jump isn't that much better than fox's. his initial first jump is awesome though, but it doesn't help you off stage.

EDIT: also falco can be gimped a lot easier than fox cause falco's up-b doesn't have a hit box around the flames during startup

 

[Deleted member]

Can we please just say that there are pros and cons to each and that neither is completely superior to the other?

From farther away, Fox has the advantage because Fire Fox has much better range and actually gives him a chance to get back.

Closer to the stage, Falco has the advantage because Fire Bird won't overshoot the ledge and his recovery moves are more dangerous for the opponent to be hit with.

 

[Plum]

ONE MUST BE BETTER THAN THE OTHER

 

[Oracle]

Oracle's 2.6 tier list

Spoiler

Broken tier aka needs nerfs
-characters that I lose to

Ok tier aka yeah sure whatever
-characters I dont lose to

Skillful tier
-characters that I play

 

[Ezzee]

Apparently PM is so incredibly awesome that the tier list should defy logic by having only a top and a middle but no bottom.

^this
Seriously, P:M is so balanced, there is so little discrepancy between the tiers that high tier can be low (mid) tier on one persons list and vice versa. There is no one character that isn't viable

 

[TheReflexWonder]

^this
Seriously, P:M is so balanced, there is so little discrepancy between the tiers that high tier can be low (mid) tier on one persons list and vice versa. There is no one character that isn't viable

As much as I enjoy this game and as much as a step up I feel it is from Melee (balance-wise), I definitely disagree.

 

[Bryonato]

As much as I enjoy this game and as much as a step up I feel it is from Melee (balance-wise), I definitely disagree.

who do you feel isn't viable?

 

[Archangel]

who do you feel isn't viable?

Everyone in the bottom 5

 

[MrBigstuff]

Everyone in the bottom 5

Well who's the bottom 5?

 

[Archangel]

actually more like the bottom 5-8.

as for who they are they are mostly the same bunch. Some have gone up but new faces replace them.

the bottom 5-8 are honestly whoever you want them to be but since 2.0's release anyone in the bottom 5-8 have basically been characters who wouldn't be able to win a tournament where many and all characters had at least some rep of the highest level. Consider a PM tournament the size of EVO and consider just based on what you know and have seen for yourself...what characters will not be placing first or even top 16. Toon Link is a character that comes to mind. Now, Let me explain that PM's version of unviable is going to look insane compared to Melee's or Brawls because the better characters are alot better. PM has elevated everyone but the same truth remains. It's a tough job, but some have to be the unviable/less viable character(s). Toon Link is very good, he's got some good MU's in PM against some good characters(puff i'm looking at you). Still, He shouldn't be placing first or top 16 at a tournament with 700 players no matter who uses him because...he's just not well rounded enough.

I think that will be the major factor in deciding who is very good vs who is less good. In melee/Brawl you could get away with being 1 dimensional and still be considered great as long as your 1 dimension was amazing. Marth comes to mind. From a technical statistic standpoint he's got nothing exceptional. He's at a frame disadvantage against the likes of Yoshi and even Ness. However, he's got attack and grab range advantages that are off the scale compared to the rest of his melee class as well as decent speed and movement to allow him to apply this natural advantage. If Marth had the rang of young link he would be lower middle. However this advantage of range combined with his ability to position himself to use it makes him very good.

In Project M a single advantage like this won't work for him in the long run. As characters are buffed to cover their weaknesses and they are given additional strengths characters that are not well rounded enough or (like Marth) have a single advantage will gravitate towards the bottom end naturally if unchecked.

Marth is still good but there are characters who out-range him. Ike, With time and development may end up(or may be already) overall better than Marth.

Link is overall really well balanced compared to Toon Link who is also balanced well overall but I'd say Link is like an 8.5 in about everything where as Tink is a 7.5 in everything.

I can't explain it farther because it's 10:30 and I haven't slept...so goodnight.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I feel as though DDD is no longer low teir. He's definitely not the highest, but two DDD players were top ten at LTC including fly who won got second (while no soloing ddd, but he used him the most). DDD has ridiculous range and power and while lacking mobility, he has waddle dashing and has more than a few jumps.

 

[metroid1117]

I feel as though DDD is no longer low teir. He's definitely not the highest, but two DDD players were top ten at LTC including fly who won (while no soloing ddd, but he used him the most). DDD has ridiculous range and power and while lacking mobility, he has waddle dashing and has more than a few jumps.

I'm not saying that D3 is low tier, but keep in mind that D3 is a character that's not used very often, so people have relatively little match-up experience against him compared to other characters; with a game as new as PM, match-up experience plays a very important role along with a player's general skill in their tournament success.

 

[Deleted member]

real talk i think fox is better than falco in this game. like noticeably better. not by too much, but enough to take note of, if that makes sense.

 

[Kink-Link5]

the bottom 5-8 are honestly whoever you want them to be but since 2.0's release anyone in the bottom 5-8 have basically been characters who wouldn't be able to win a tournament where many and all characters had at least some rep of the highest level. Consider a PM tournament the size of EVO and consider just based on what you know and have seen for yourself...what characters will not be placing first or even top 16. Toon Link is a character that comes to mind. Now, Let me explain that PM's version of unviable is going to look insane compared to Melee's or Brawls because the better characters are alot better. PM has elevated everyone but the same truth remains. It's a tough job, but some have to be the unviable/less viable character(s). Toon Link is very good, he's got some good MU's in PM against some good characters(puff i'm looking at you). Still, He shouldn't be placing first or top 16 at a tournament with 700 players no matter who uses him because...he's just not well rounded enough.

This is exactly what people are referring to when they say results based conclusions are ********.

You aren't ********, but the idea itself is.

I'm not saying that D3 is low tier, but keep in mind that D3 is a character that's not used very often, so people have relatively little match-up experience against him compared to other characters; with a game as new as PM, match-up experience plays a very important role along with a player's general skill in their tournament success.

Metroid with the very real talk.

#Metroid6ever

 

[Sethlon]

I feel as though DDD is no longer low teir. He's definitely not the highest, but two DDD players were top ten at LTC including fly who won (while no soloing ddd, but he used him the most). DDD has ridiculous range and power and while lacking mobility, he has waddle dashing and has more than a few jumps.

Just to clarify; Fly Amanita placed 2nd at LTC under Reflex. He played damn well, but he did not quite win.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

oh **** whoops forgot who won. damn I feel stupid

 

[Juushichi]

real talk i think fox is better than falco in this game. like noticeably better. not by too much, but enough to take note of, if that makes sense.

Why's this? Can you message me, Max?

 

[Deleted member]

Why's this? Can you message me, Max?

better mobility favors a game with larger stages and a more diverse cast.

 

[NightShadow6]

I believe we are at a point in this game where everyone is viable.

No one comes to mind, say if someone who is proficient with a character can overcome bad match ups with skill.

 

[Oro?!]

Why's this? Can you message me, Max?

Not to mention the blastzone disparity. The 3 largest blastzone stages in the game remain FoD, Battlefield, and Dreamland. Guess how many bans everyone gets per set then think how fast upsmash or uthrow uair kills lol.

 

[Archangel]

This is exactly what people are referring to when they say results based conclusions are ********.

You aren't ********, but the idea itself is.



Metroid with the very real talk.

#Metroid6ever

Results aren't everything but they are something. Tier lists reflect a characters likely performance in tournament. That is what I'm talking about. Don't lump me in with bones logic.

 

[Deleted member]

^this
Seriously, P:M is so balanced, there is so little discrepancy between the tiers that high tier can be low (mid) tier on one persons list and vice versa. There is no one character that isn't viable

I was just being facetious to go along with Kink's "Top, Very High, High, Upper Middle, and Lower Middle" comment.

 

[KayB]

Well who's the bottom 5?

Ike
Ike
Ike
Ike
Ike

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty confident about Squirtle, King Dedede, and Zelda being unviable in the grand scheme of things. They may have strong niche matchups, but struggle against a majority of characters.

Maybe Ganondorf, maybe R.O.B., maybe Jigglypuff, maybe Luigi, -maybe- Ivysaur. Those characters stick out in my mind.

 

[Problem2]

Not to mention the blastzone disparity. The 3 largest blastzone stages in the game remain FoD, Battlefield, and Dreamland. Guess how many bans everyone gets per set then think how fast upsmash or uthrow uair kills lol.

Metal Cavern though.

 

[Burnsy]

I'm pretty confident about Squirtle, King Dedede, and Zelda being unviable in the grand scheme of things. They may have strong niche matchups, but struggle against a majority of characters.

Maybe Ganondorf, maybe R.O.B., maybe Jigglypuff, maybe Luigi, -maybe- Ivysaur. Those characters stick out in my mind.

Whaaa? But Ivy is so much better now?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

She's loads better against the characters she already did pretty well against, but I think most of the characters she previously lost badly to still beat her pretty badly (as in, most of her changes don't really address her biggest problems in 2.5). I could be wrong about my assessment there (she's the iffiest of the group I listed, IMO), but I'm still not too hopeful.

 

[DMG]

Ganon is progressively less and less viable as these short/buffed characters keep going on.

 

[Juushichi]

But DMG, the punch does 17 whopping percent of damage. T_T