Tier list for Marth's moves

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Hehe, my idea stolen XD, its all good lol

Surprised to see D-tilt at top. Thought fair would be on top.

Fsmash is pretty low... wow

the Fthrow -> Fsmash is a guaranteed combo on most characters so i'd say it should be a little higher (fsmash)

It is only a true combo at 0% to about 4% at the most and that is only on a few characters, but yeah, Fsmash is too punishable, and Dtilt and fair are always better options, except for killing, and even then DS OoS is safer if it hits.

 

[∫unk]

but guys if you tip with f-smash it's super strong

 

[gunterrsmash01]

So how is dtilt higher than fair? When i use marth i constantly use fair to space amd dtilt only a little when im up close. Fair seems so much more important

 

[Coda]

So... my reply didn't show up at all... But yes. I was kidding.

Actually, I feel like I've said a lot of stupid things. Due to lack of properly using correct smash terminology, or proper english. Whatev.

Uh. I just wanted to see how the MBR (or the board in general) would react and check my credibility with them. I have little or none.

I guess that hurts my forum status. not much else. Sorry, I'm rambling. This is my real tier list.

Top Tier

Fair
Dancing Blade
Dtilt

High Tier

Dolphin Slash
Nair/Bair
Uair/Utilt

Middle Tier

Usmash
Fthrow/Dthrow
Uthrow
Fsmash/Dsmash
Ftilt
Shieldbreaker
Dair

Low Tier

Counter

Bottom Tier

Bthrow
Dash Attack

 

[Joxer]

Junk: Marth's throws overall are better then his f-tilt since f-tilt is unsafe vs about half the cast. Throws beat shields and set-up for Marth's spacing. The damage is crap, but they are slightly more abusable then f-tilt. Which is why they are one spot higher then f-tilt.

Dair.....eh. Why not?

*Moves Dair to bottom tier.

Swastika: Well they should use it since it's easily one of the best pokes in the game. Second only to MK's d-tilt/f-tilt IMO.

The prob I have with d-tilt and the reason that people don't use it very often is that it comes out on frame 8. This might not seem very slow, but is 5 frames slower than fair and 2 slower than dancing blade. IMO the move requires very very good spacing, luck, or an inexperienced opponent. Also, the knockback tends to be such that it puts opponents out of reach of an easy follow up. If you see tournament vids with anything higher than spare d-tilt use, please hit me up with a link.

Video Examples:

Azen's Marth, one of the best IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIiW_GuYaZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYlmLSrSao

I think he throws out 3 in total throught both vids. That would rate it low tier in my book.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's always how Azen played though. Even in Melee. He is very partial to fair.

There is simply no deny d-tilts utility. It's a very very good move. Not just due to it's speed.

I never once even entertained the idea that d-tilt was a better move just due to its speed. IMO it's better due to the frame trap and advantage it gives you. And when you jump in the air you make yourself slightly more vulnerable.

I think both moves do not require Marth to commit very much if at all, but d-tilt is far more spammable IMO and it leads to greater rewards.

And either way d-tilt is still top tier.

I think I would cry if any Marth even dreamed that any moves besides DB and fair could contend with it for the top spot.

D-tilt also comes out on frame 7. Fair comes out on frame 4 as does DB.

I will say that Fair requires less effort to set-up with, but I honestly think that's just because alot of Marths are just used to using short hops to adjust themselves instead of playing on the ground more.

 

[feardragon64]

@joxerIt'll take you more than 2 frames to cover the distance between a dtilt and dancing blade(don't approach with dancing blade >>)
Besides, what's great about dtilt is 1) it's a trap in and of itself 2) it zones awesomely(it's safe) 3) IASA frames, 4) they link together and let you move forward(not THAT useful, but meh I'll take it), 4) range range range, 5) I'd write a few more but I'm exhausted and need to sleep

 

[Emblem Lord]

I mean really...saying a move is low tier because Azen didn't use it alot?

Seriously?

Now you know that kind of reasoning isn't gonna fly on the Marth boards.

 

[Joxer]

That's always how Azen played though. Even in Melee. He is very partial to fair.

There must be a reason that Azen is partial to fair. I like to think that he is because it is Marths best move bar none, for the following reasons(in no particular order):
1. Comes out on frame 3. Nuf said.
2. Link into each other for easy combos.
3. Incredible range
4. Almost impossible to punish with proper DI.
5. Tippers for the kill

I never once even entertained the idea that d-tilt was a better move due to its speed. IMO it's better due to the frame trap and advantage it gives you.

And when you jump in the air you make yourself slightly more vulnerable.

How on earth is that true? Marth players spend the majority of the time in the air to exploit Marth's amazing aerials. In what position are you safer from approach? Low in the air, where you can air dodge, DI, jump away, and use aerials (which are faster than most of your ground moves) to cover the entire area around you(fair covers below you as well) Notice what moves you rated above most others?

I think both moves do not require Marth to commit very much if at all, but d-tilt is far more spammable IMO and it leads to greater rewards.

Spammable when sitting on the ground vulnerable from all directions but low in front? If you whiff the first one you're toast. Greater rewards? Fair to uair to to utilt and fair to DB both have higher damage outputs starting from a safer position: the air

D-tilt also comes out on frame 7. Fair comes out on frame 4 as does DB.

I stand corrected.

I will say that Fair requires less effort to set-up with, but I honestly think that's just because alot of Marths are just used to using short hops to adjust themselves instead of playing on the ground more.

For good reason. See argument above.

I mean really...saying a move is low tier because Azen didn't use it alot?

Seriously?

Now you know that kind of reasoning isn't gonna fly on the Marth boards.

Ok, but thats not the only reasoning I have. I'm just using Azen as a great example of my points. He uses the moves I see as good and wins. As I said before, show me a vid of a solid Marth who, against a solid opponent, consistently uses dtilt to his advantage, and I will consider your argument more seriosly. Without it, how can I take your argument seriously?

Top tier is Marth's bread and butter. It's the core of his gameplay. The high tier moves are great moves that have strong properties. Mid tier are solid moves that have some weaknesses. Low tier are moves that should be used sparingly and when you do, they should be done with caution and alot of thought. Bottom tier should be avoided at all costs.

Based on the above, this is what I came up with.

Top Tier

Fair
Dancing Blade

High Tier

Dolphin Slash
Nair
Uair
Bair

Mid Tier

U-tilt - quick, great range, sets up for juggles
F-throw/D-throw/U-throw - awesome combo starters
F-smash - Best range of the smashes and has great utility in spite of its weaknesses
U-smash - great for sliding U-smash, great hitbox, hard to hit with and slow)
D-tilt
F-tilt

Low Tier

D-smash - very very very punishable. I hardly ever use it or see it used
Jab
Counter
Shieldbreaker

Bottom Tier

Dair
B-throw
Dash attack

 

[Emblem Lord]

D-tilt's usefulness really can't be debated. It's been proven how good it is.

Saying Fair or DB is better is one thing, but to say a 7 frame move with good range, safe on block and frame traps is anything but top tier is just ridiculous.

Hell having Nair above it ridiculous since you can't even reliable approach with that and it's not even in the same realm of utility as d-tilt.

You are going to ask how you can take me seriously?

Really?

I'm just stating solid facts. That's all. How the hell am I supposed to know why exactly Azen and Roy R don't abuse d-tilt that much. Maybe they just don't think about it that much or hell maybe they haven't realized how amazing it is.

If you whiff a d-tilt you cancel into another action using the IASA frames to remain safe. You are certainly not toast.

Fair and d-tilt link into stuff at low percents. So this point is moot. Marth isn't even about combos. And linking with d-tilt is much easier at low percents. You would have to SF FF fair and then combo. Which is stupidly obvious. Much easier to walk up d-tilt and go into DB.

I say Fair makes Marth more vulnerable since he is now moving a bit more slowly and his movement is a bit more restricted when compared to his movement on the ground. He has less options available to him as well. When your on the ground all your options are at your finger tips.

Also d-tilt outranges f-tilt.

The way I see it is like this, both are safe, both are fast, and both have good range. Fair is slightly more spammable, but the ability to remain in control on block is a huge deal. D-tilt is a little better with that.

But honestly...having D-tilt that low on your list is just laughable.

I'm not here to convince anyone of anything though. I'm here to do what I have always done. Spread knowledge.

 

[Joxer]

A sampling of strong Marth players in victorious grand finals play with little to no d-tilt use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kYZgUCmqZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDoQ9hbSBbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFnrCmYd_1c&feature=related

Not trying to make enemies here, Emblem Lord. Given the evidence, it simply seems to me that d-tilt is either a lot better on paper than it is in real live play, or everyone is missing something. I am willing to concede that they are both plausible options.

However, my findings have caused me to lean in the direction of the former argument. Maybe Marth's frames to crouch add to the attack enough to make it too slow? Maybe people over time have learned to punish d-tilt much more than expected, and thus Marth players stay away from it? Maybe Marth players have found that DB and fair are both better options in all cases that d-tilt could be used in?

If you have hours and hours of play-time under your belt at tournaments and swear by d-tilt, let me see those vids or tell me so. As I see it, this is a case of evidence vs. opinion. Not in terms of the facts on paper, but in terms of actual competitive gameplay and the general marth metagame.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Azen and Roy_R are like the best Marths. If they don't use a move much, it's not a big stretch to think that the move isn't very useful.

I'm glad you're here to spread knowledge, but not everyone thinks your 'knowledge' is correct.

I don't main Marth, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Also, EL, can I see some vids of your Marth?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm in agreement with you dude. I think that d-tilt is vastly underused by the majority of the Marth community.

I will say that Fair is easier access and more appealing for a more aggressive style since it allows you to use Marth's aerial mobility to fair then DI back. Since wavedashing no longer exist accessing the d-tilt is a bit harder and requires more thought.

I recognize that Brawl is boring as **** and not alot of people want to be even more patient then they already are. But there are ways to access the d-tilt quickly and efficiently.

Crouching does take some more frames, but it takes Marth longer to jump then it does for him to crouch so this is negligible. I just think it's a frame of mind for most Marths.

For the record I have spoken with NEO and Pierce and they admit that they don't use d-tilt as much as they should and they do plan on using it more in the future.

But in spite of all that..the entire community itself recognizes that Marth's d-tilt is easily one of the best tilts in the entire game.

It has all the attributes to be seen as such. So yeah, I do swear by that ****.

Tournament vids be d*mned.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Why are people arguing with Emblem Lord? Dtilt is **** on shield. Completely safe, pressures well, it isn't a kill move so diminishing it isn't an issue, it outranges a lot of good moves like the first hit of Snake's ftilt, and it can combo into other moves.

Yeah fair is also good but it's not going to kill at higher percents tipped if you use it liberally at all percents.

 

[phi1ny3]

EL has contributed, and overall, he's got Marth. Dtilt, while "quieter" than fair, has good uses, as it ties into other moves, like DB, ftilt, utilt, etc (which is good if they decide to avoid the dtilt), the range, damage, speed, and safety of the move are all there, I guess it most certainly doesn't epitomize the "graceful Marth" we all have in our heads, and seems downright unorthodox, but I think that dtilt has merit as an amazing tilt. At the Lucario boards, we were having a similar discussion, only with fair vs. dair, and while most preferred dair, most Lucarios didn't take into consideration that fair was an great approach (one of our few good ones), it actually "combos" into itself (we have yet to know if there's anything that can interupt SH double fair), it works well to recover retreat, etc.

tl;dr version: Just because it's a move that's characteristic of the character, and is almost a "signature", doesn't always mean it's the best.

 

[∫unk]

Drephen's Marth isn't good. He wins because he's just better than his opponents through experience.

There haven't been recent vids of NEO so what do you know about his game?

RoyR... is a completely different beast you'll fail if you try to emulate his style.

I use d-tilt a lot. When I'm walling that's usually the first thing that hits.

It's ****ing amazing. Just throw in d-tilts in between your f-airs and n-airs if your opponent stays grounded (aka against snake).

 

[Remzi]

The top 3 on the list (Fair, DB, D-tilt) are interchangeable. Let's just say, we'd be screwed without all 3 of them =P

 

[Steel]

Are we... arguing about basic fighting game properties?

I'm disappointed.

 

[OmegaXF]

I like Steels slightly more than EL.
Maybe because of DS inTop tier.
Other than that GJ you two.

 

[TLMarth]

OK! I think I can explain Top tier, and I don't even play Marth... but Pierce does, and it influences me.

F-smash= Pray and hope for tip
Shieldbreaker=Pray some more?
Dair= This guy is really religious....

EDIT:
To be more serious, even as a person that DOESN'T play marth, I can see this is pretty bad. I think that from somebody that has to fight against marth, and isn't marth might have good input for what's effective, but maybe not, so even though I'm not too important here, I'll give it a shot.

God Tier
The extra attacks that occur when his Tiara tips and **** ensues
Shield

Top Tier

Fair
Dancing Blade
Dtilt

High Tier

Bair
Nair
Uair
Usmash(Utilt for scrubs)
Whale Render(Dolphin Slash for scrubs)

Middle Tier

Shieldbreaker
Dsmash
Usmash(the real Usmash)
Fsmash

Low Tier

Ftilt
Jab
counter
Dthrow/Fthrow/Uthrow

Bottom Tier
Dair(Varies on player)
Dash attack
Bthrow

whale=/=dolphin

 

[VietGeek]

whale=/=dolphin

The ****ed move kills whales. I say the name is passable.

 

[Palpi]

Dtilt is very easy attack that can get some decent %, it deserves top tier. Obviously not a spammed attack, but it is a very solid, safe, and productive tilt.

 

[feardragon64]

The ****ed move kills whales. I say the name is passable.

We'll call it Orca Slash

 

[BacklashMarth]

We'll call it Orca Slash

I was gonna go with Beluga Blade but I like that better. However, Porpoise Punisher is always an option.

P.S. Whats up with your ridonkulus post count Solid. ITS APPROACHING 9000!!!!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was gonna go with Beluga Blade but I like that better. However, Porpose Punisher is always an option.

You spelled porpoise wrong n00b!



Azen is not one of the best Marths for whoever said that.

 

[BacklashMarth]

You spelled porpoise wrong n00b!



Azen is not one of the best Marths for whoever said that.

Thx i was hoping someone would give me the correct spelling so i wouldnt have to google it.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Lol, wow... You are quite lazy my friend!

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Until I see some video evidence of how amazing dtilt is, it's forever going to remain theorycraft in my mind. In all the marth vids I've seen, DB is almost always the preferred ground option. Don't get me wrong, dtilt probably could work, but DB usually seems like a better option.

 

[IDK]

dair is debatable. i know it sucks, but it shouldnt be avoided at all costs. its okay to spike if you have the timing, spacing, and correct setups. im thinking bair should be before uair. also... just on this topic...

WHYYYY EL... WHYYYY?!?!?!!!!!ONE!!!1111!!11ONEONE!111ONE!!!!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Dtilt and DB are good for different reasons, DB is more of a punisher, as it's unsafe on block and it itself is punishable, whereas Dtilt is used more as a pressuring/poking move. They are both great moves, but they aren't used for the same purposes normally.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why...what?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think he is trying to ask why Dair is so bad.

 

[Odigo]

fsmash is lower than dsmash?

o.O

LOW tier??

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

hilarious thread


10/10 for funny posts

 

[PKNintendo]

Forgive my noobness? But why is Marth's upsmash in mid and Fsmash in low? Stutter step Fsmash anyone? Tipper is ridiculous at killing!

 

[Palpi]

Fsmash is is GREAT!. If you hit them.. It is low tier because it is extremely punishable, especially when shielded. The down smash is also punishable, but can be a more reliable kill.

 

[Remzi]

Forgive my noobness? But why is Marth's upsmash in mid and Fsmash in low? Stutter step Fsmash anyone? Tipper is ridiculous at killing!

It has a ton of ending lag. That and any time you can fsmash, you can also dtilt. And dtilt has IASA frames, a frame trap, is safe on block, and comes out in like 7 frames I think. There really isn't a need to put yourself at risk by using a fsmash, when you have a more relliable option in dtilt. The only time you should be using fsmash is when its time to kill, and even then only when you are absolutely sure you will nail it. DS OoS and Usmash are better for killing.

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Your gonna be landing more fairs then dtilts, and most Marths will abuse their fair because its so good. A marth using fair as a primary move will do better than a marth using dtilt as its primary move. Dtilt is a REALLY good move for pressuring but it has its times for usage. While fair is gonna be used constantly, and if spaced correctly, you cant be punished for it really. Fair for top of top tier. Infact i think it should go: Fair, Dancing Blade, and then Dtilt.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Your gonna be landing more fairs then dtilts, and most Marths will abuse their fair because its so good. A marth using fair as a primary move will do better than a marth using dtilt as its primary move. Dtilt is a REALLY good move for pressuring but it has its times for usage. While fair is gonna be used constantly, and if spaced correctly, you cant be punished for it really. Fair for top of top tier. In fact i think it should go: Fair, Dancing Blade, and then Dtilt.

That's why almost all Marth mains use fair as their primary move. They re different moves with different purposes and therefore cannot really be judged against each other. Fair is an all around move whereas Dtilt is a pressuring move. Fair can be used for pressuring but also for punishing and damage racking and gimping. Dtilt isn't as good at these things because it doesn't do a lot of damage, there are better punishing moves that Marth can use, and it can't really be used for gimping because it cannot be used in the air. If they were both solely pressuring moves or both all around moves, then we could decide which is better. Because of the category of each of these moves, it's obvious that Fair is better because it's a better all around move than Dtilt is. DB is a punishing move, and Dtilt is for mainly pressuring, so those can't be judged against each other either.




Usmash is not a good kill move Bengals, Utilt and Uair are better.

 

[Conclusively]

Dtilt is too good. It needs it's own tier.