Tier list for Marth's moves

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Fair is better, you'd understand why if you read my post above yours.

 

[CELTiiC]

Dtilt is too good. It needs it's own tier.

D-Tilt is good, but it really doesn't deserve it's own tier. F-Air is better than D-Tilt. F-Air can be used for Gimping plus it's harder to counter, and as Ozz and S.O.L.I.D said, D-Tilt is more for pressure situations. BTW, read the 2 posts above you.

Edit:
@ Emblem Lord - I'd put F-Air as the best, not D-Tilt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hmmm. I'll put Fair above D-tilt since Fair can be used in more situations then D-tilt.

I ordered the throws as well.

F-throw creates a 50/50 guess each time you use it. Airdodge or no. Same with D-throw pretty much, but F-throw has better recovery. U-throw is good vs characters with poor aerial options, but F-throw is good vs everyone pretty much.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Creating a tier list for the moves of a particular character is a waste of a post. Instead you should focus on educating people on strategy involving multiple moves, character matchups and timings, as well as exploring the uses of moves in particular situations.

And yes EL, you should be completely ashamed of yourself for posting this shallow and baseless thread.

 

[Steel]

Did I just read that?

LMAO

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Wow Technomonster, you clearly don't understand the Marth Boards. We've finished matchups, are doing stages, and now anything up is extra helpful stuff, and there are a bunch of things in development. You should be ashamed of yourself for being a hater.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Technomonster: Did you really tell ME that I need to educate people about Marth or his match-ups?

BTW...aren't you that same guy that told me that Lucas had 6/4 advantage on Marth way back when?

Yeah...stfu.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Sigh.. That was about a month after the game was released, and I was running even with DannyKat, Lucas vs. Marth, and took Bardull down to one stock in two wifi games that we played, even though he was at the time considered to be the best Marth. I eventually dropped Lucas, because of that matchup and several others.

I'm just saying that you've lost your focus, and that this thread will not improve anyone's play. This tier list has no credentials for rating the moves (it seems to be going off of which moves have more utility) and discourages creative play. For instance, in many cases D-tilt is better than F-air because it is safer on block. In many cases at high %, F-tilt is a better attack than F-smash, because it will result in a kill and is safer. Any Marth can plainly see that most of his moves are very high priority and can be used in a variety of situations. The players that distinguish themselves are the ones that understand the ins and outs of Marth, the pressure game, and the mental game, and understand where their vulnerabilities lie.

As such, I have put together a strategy tier list.

Top Tier:
Not Getting Hit
Powershielding into KO moves
Smart Pressure/Spacing

High Tier:
Baiting/Outprioritizing
Shield Poking
Countering Attacks with Up-B
Throw them off and edgeguard
Punishing out of shield
Grab Mixups

Mid Tier:
Spamming F-air
Spamming Dancing Blade
Staying on the ground

Low Tier:
Using lots of Smashes
Always going for spikes
Countering everything

Bottom Tier:
Whiffing
Thinking you're invulnerable
Spacing poorly
Not using any of the above strategies

 

[Steel]

Techno

Just one question

Have you even bothered to LOOK around these boards?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Clearly the thread was for ****s and giggles and because I like making tier lists.

But for you to come in and act like I haven't done my share for this community made me want to roflmao.

It's just fun to take an educated look at Marth's moves and see which ones are good.

No one is saying you can't be creative if you don't want too. Hell that's not even what this thread is about. Seems like you just came in here trying to start trouble.

And your tier list isn't a tier list. It's just playing like you have a brain.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

If only he posted like he had a brain.

 

[Odigo]

Until I see some video evidence of how amazing dtilt is, it's forever going to remain theorycraft in my mind. In all the marth vids I've seen, DB is almost always the preferred ground option. Don't get me wrong, dtilt probably could work, but DB usually seems like a better option.

I'd like to see some more evidence of dtilts potential too. It's amazing on paper but I haven't seen enough proof or evidence for it to be considered top tier.

I HAVE been incorporating dtilt into my game more and it works well but I'd still like to actually see it used to its full potential in a match.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ya know...what you COULD do is...like...train and get better..and then use d-tilt and see what happens.

You know...so you can like...decide for yourself if the move is good.

I know thinking for yourself is unheard of SWF what with the hero worship of high level players going on, but who knows?

It just might work out for ya.

-_-

 

[Odigo]

I mean...I said I've been using it more and more....
and it works well...

All I meant was that I'd like to see it used to its higher potential.

I'm fully capable of thinking for myself and developing my own play style but when the Marth community makes a claim about something I think to myself "Really? Yeah, that does make sense...I'd like to see how that actually works though..."

For instance, I had to watch some videos of wavedashing in melee when I first found out about it to SEE what it really looked like and see it's uses.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Relax son.

I know where you're coming from.

It just bugs me when people act like the only way a move can be deemed a good move is if a high level player uses it. I know that's not what you are trying to say, but to see previous posters (not you) say that kind of thing on the Marth boards of all places.

I guess I just felt like this is was the one forum where that kind of backwards thinking would never ever be mentioned or suggested.

 

[Odigo]

Yeah, that's definitely not how I feel or what I was trying to say.

The metagame would never evolve if people only copied high level players, and then we'd be stuck in one spot.

I have the highest respect for the Marth boards due to the organization, dedication, and intelligence of (most) people here. But if someone tells me they can fly I'd ask them to show me.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Yeah, that's definitely not how I feel or what I was trying to say.

The metagame would never evolve if people only copied high level players, and then we'd be stuck in one spot.

I have the highest respect for the Marth boards due to the organization, dedication, and intelligence of (most) people here. But if someone tells me they can fly I'd ask them to show me.

well put.

glad to know that someone respects us.

 

[PKNintendo]

Technomonster: Did you really tell ME that I need to educate people about Marth or his match-ups?

BTW...aren't you that same guy that told me that Lucas had 6/4 advantage on Marth way back when?

Yeah...stfu.

Lucas does have a 6-4 adv on Marth, you stfu.
Hell, Ness does too. 7-3 at that. And Wario, and Mario and Luigi too! Emblem lord, you truly suck.

(Sarcasm aside, nice thread BTW, I didn't know Marth's dtilt was that good)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Lucas does have a 6-4 adv on Marth, you stfu.
Hell, Ness does too. 7-3 at that. And Wario, and Mario and Luigi too! Emblem lord, you truly suck.

(Sarcasm aside, nice thread BTW, I didn't know Marth's dtilt was that good)

Isn't sarcasm supposed to be funny? That was stupid.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Actually, I find counter quite useful (Disclaimer: I do not believe counter should be top tier, or the top of higher, etc.), the reason for this is that it is one of the only moves that can cause an opponent trouble without ever damaging them.

To illustrate:
If one counters while recovering, after dropping down from an edge, or at any (reasonable) time while on stage, it adds one more variable the opponent has to think about, and can cause hesitation and less confidence. However, one must show that one is willing to use the counter to create for this to effect.

(Although I wouldn't be surprised if this is just me, as I am starting to believe more and more everyday that I have a secret fetish for the counter.)

Also, I love doing shieldbreaker a considerable distance from an opponent, then Dolphin Slashing them when they try to punish. Unfortunately, this can be very situational, and it's effectiveness varies greatly on the distance, running speed, and intelligence of the opponent.

I find that ftilt is can be a very useful tool against shorthops, is easy to tipper, and cover the range that dtilt does not hit. (Again in no way do I believe ftilt is better than dtilt)

Also, one thing I like about Dancing Blade, is that can hit airborne opponents (obviously very high ones [well at least when you're on the ground]), while dtilt cannot.


Just one thing I would like to reiterate for fear of misinterpretation, I am not suggesting large or dramatic changes to the list, I am just rambling on and on about my thoughts like a senile old man.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I swear to god, one of these days I'm going to come over to the east coast and wreck you in a Marth ditto, and I don't even play him. The things you've posted it makes me feel like you don't even know some of the most basic low percent combos with Marth.

I know how much you post around here, EL, and I've read most of your walls of text explaining the basics of Marth play, but you post so little in the way of solid strategy that I feel that you are just explaining the moves in a very oversimplified way, and not pushing deeper into the mindset of a professional Marth. Marth is not a technical beast, nor is he fussy to play with. His moves are straightforward. His game is nonetheless very deep. He has perhaps three of the top ten moves in the game in his F-air, Side-B and Up-B. And yet you insist that he cannot win tournaments?

I feel like with some meditation on the weaknesses of your style and the effects of your attitude towards the game, you could be a great player.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Dude, just stop. EL doesn't even think his Marth is that good.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Personally, I disagree. [EDIT: Not referring to Solid, referring to TechnoMonster]

At least for me (and I assume many others), Emblem Lord's post have boosted my Marth's game to the next level and is foundation of my strategy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What the hell are you going on about?

And I never said Marth can't win tournaments. I said he won't win as consistently as MK, Snake and a few others.

Honestly your post is full of falsehoods and it's a bit all over the place.

First you claim that I don't go deeply into Marth's metagame. This is a lie. No one has gone deeper. That's fact.

The weakness of my style? Uhhh, what? Since when were talking about me? I haven't even been to a tourney in months and every match I lost I know why I lost and I wasn't stumped on how I could improve.

Lastly...wtf do Marth's low percent combos have to do with anything?

 

[Steel]

Technomonster get the **** OFF MY MARTH BOARDS

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Personally, I disagree. [EDIT: Not referring to Solid, referring to TechnoMonster]

At least for me (and I assume many others), Emblem Lord's post have boosted my Marth's game to the next level and is foundation of my strategy.

I definitely agree with this. If we didn't have EL here, I don't know how bad I'd be. I'd be worse, but Steel and Pierce and Feardragon are great posters as well. EL's better though, IMO the most helpful poster (not from being nice, lol) on SWF.

 

[TechnoMonster]

metagame.

I think its possible that you have cornered yourself in Marth's metagame. DSF and Azen don't play within the metagame. They crush all of your most basic attacks and strategies with souped up basics, and you find yourself stuck in a box, baffled by their "mixup" when really they're just reacting to your new found panic.

The Marth boards very rarely explore this angle of the game, even though its Marth's strongest point. That's what I meant when I said that his game was deep. Its not metagame, though knowing what you can punish and whatnot helps with situations. The reason I posted in this thread is because you do very good work here figuring out what beats what and whatnot, and this thread is so basic and distracting and can have a negative effect on new players, because it distracts from thinking about the complete game.


I'm also sorry for my earlier posts, I didn't mean to distract the entire forum, but I just don't think these kinds of threads are good at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Dude...all you are talking about is the ability to read someone's style and that's not anything that can be taught. That comes with experience so why should I try to teach something that really can't be taught?

Honestly you just keep digging yourself deeper and your not even really saying much of anything.

And everyone plays within the metagame since the metagame is simply how the game is played at certain levels.

The only thing people affect is shifts within the metagame . i.e which strats are abused and which ones are not, which moves are used and which ones are ignored.

Do you even know what you are trying to say at this point?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Well [cliche] actions speak louder than words [/cliche], so perhaps it would be beneficial to us all if you created a thread yourself advancing our playing ability.

Spoiler

Luckily for us , it's a win-win.

 

[Odigo]

Whoa, okay here we go...

First: Marth dittos don't mean anything. They're almost as dumb as Falco dittos, except without the chaingrabbing. Marth dittos are played completely differently than a normal match and can be pretty boring...

Second: EL didn't say Marth couldn't win tournaments, he said Marth couldn't win consistently over characters like Snake or MK. There's a difference. A third of the top tier characters have chain grabs, all but one have projectiles, and the top 2 characters right now are too **** strong. And Marth can still (somewhat) keep up with them if played right.

Third: I don't see how you can say EL hasn't posted any solid strategy for Marth's moves. EL is arguably and easily the most influential poster on these boards and to come in here and make some sort of claim like that is bogus. There are a good amount of threads around here done by EL and other intelligent posters about Marth and ideas for certain situations. (for instance, the thread you're currently in).

Fourth: When the hell did this become about EL? These are the Marth boards, not the Emblem Lord boards. This thread is about Marth's moves, not how good or "professional" of a player EL is.

I feel like everything you just said in your last post is either blatantly not true or has been acknowledged already (like the idea of Marth being straightforward but still deep).

It would probably be a good idea to stop trolling, stop picking random meaningless fights, and either try to help the community as opposed to attacking it or just leave.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Actually I would have to disagree on point four.

These are not the Marth Boards.

These are the Emblem Boards, which is a small part of the Emblem Lord Universe.

 

[Conclusively]

Yay! Marth drama!

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

behold Emblem Lord's army of marths.

 

[feardragon64]

lmao
This spiraled out of control in the 9 hours I was gone....
Stop arguing about if EL was justified in posting this. Ignoring the fact he's a ****load more knowledgeable than you, he has the right to voice his opinion(that the vast majority of intelligent marth players generally agree with anyways >>).

but still, lmao at escalation of this.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

But it is so much fun!

 

[TechnoMonster]

Ignoring the fact he's a ****load more knowledgeable than you

I take this personally. I know an absurd amount of information on this game, I regularly attend regional tournaments and perform decently (more than can be said of any of the posters in this thread aside from perhaps one), and I play with many of the top players in Vegas and do well against them, and many of them ask me for advice, as well as being on the Vegas power rankings panel. I know everything there is to know about the game mechanics as far as how priorities and hitboxes work, how DI and smash DI work, character weights, recoveries, most of what has invulnerability/superarmor, jump heights and what is possible using jumps and fastfalled jumps, what autocancels, etc. and I have a good natural sense of timing from having played the game with/against every character since its release.

I'm not saying that he isn't more knowledgeable than I am about Marth, but saying that he knows so much more than I do, as a regular tournament attendee and respected member of the community with a strong knowledge of the game, I feel that talking down to me is the same as saying that Xyro is the best Samus because he plays "better" players, without even having tasted Tudor's steely bite or acknowledging that he goes toe-to-toe with SK92 (Ranked #3 on the whole of the west coast) and often beats SK92 and his partner in teams matches, all while maintaining the biggest smile ever and a steamy love life.

Regardless of my opinion or Emblem Lord's opinion, ad homonym attacks are wasteful, and though at times I have been guilty of them, you should all be ashamed of yourself for wasting your entire day hanging on his balls. I respect the guy immensely as a poster and a researcher, and many of his posts are high quality and it was silly to suggest that he didn't know basic combos, but I don't agree with the principle of this thread, and I think its wasteful. If Emblem Lord has a right to create the discussion, I have a right to comment on it, and I say that at best this thread is silly. Ryu's best move in every street fighter game was his Shoryuken uppercut. Without further information, that's a waste of a sentence, and triply so against people that don't understand the basic concepts of the game, and will end up getting them crushed in real play.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I disagree completely.

Ryu's best move is the hadouken.

And also...have you been paying attention?

The entire Marth community has gone over Marth's moves and their uses many many times. In match-up discussions, going over his frame-traps and also talking about his combos and set-ups.

THIS IS WHY WE ARE SNUBBING YOU!!!!!!!

You clearly don't know wtf is going on.

News flash. It's been 7 months since Brawl's release.

We don't need anyone telling us out of all the character boards, that we haven't analyzed Marth's moveset.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

 

[TechnoMonster]

Ryu's best move was clearly the Shoryuken. It functions in anti-air, anti-ground, footsies, anti-projectile, a good mixup on wakeup, and did better damage than a hadouken and was involved in a number of combos (mostly low short or jab to srk). The mere presence of the move shapes the way every matchup is played vs. Shotas. Hadouken was just a decent projectile, but was liable to get you jumpkicked/crossed up and will rarely hit outside of a combo or a wakeup. Excellent discussion, but the point I was trying to make was ignored/missed, which is that saying that a move is good or bad is in large irrelevant and a distraction to new players.

And I'm saying you need to stop focusing on the trivials of his moveset and continue buffing up your smash game, and that this thread is wasteful and distracting from that purpose.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok. Dude.

Seriously. WTF was the point of you coming in here and acting like I haven't been doing just that. Looking at his moves. Studying them and trying to take his metagame to the next level.

So wait....are you trying to say I'm not allowed to make a thread like this? There is plenty of discussion and other threads in the Marth forums dealing with what you are talking about. This thread takes nothing away from those threads.

Seems like you just came in here to be a$$.

Hadouken gave Ryu control over the play field, is good in block strings and good for combos. Also it was good since it became a mix-up on block after a low short. Ryu could walk up throw, do an overhead, throw hadouken or bait an attack and punish.

SRK is risky on wake-up. It can stuff just about anything but if they call it you are done. That's if Ryu is on the ground or the one initiating the wake-up game. If he initiated it then hadouken is a simple no brainer option that gives him easy chip damage and control.

Also you get most SRK's from jump in's. What makes you jump in?

*In CE Ryu's voice
HADOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUKEN!!!!!

Also Ryu's best move in 3S definitely isn't SRK. It's probably crouching forward. Really good poke and that game is very much a pokefest.

In A2 the SRK is need even less since there is air block. Crouching Fierce serves as a better AA. But SRK still does the job since the hitbox is stupid.

But...anyway...look back at what you said dude. Acting like I haven't talked about that other stuff.

Saying I should be ashamed for making this thread? Are you serious.

Stop being a jerk. There was no reason for you to come in here and act like that. I act like a jerk too when I want to make a point, but honestly you never had a point to begin with since this community has always been doing what you are talking about. And for you to say that I don't dig deeply into Marth's metagame is an insult.

At this point..you have made yourself out to be a joke.

Plz stop posting. It hurts my eyes.

 

[∫unk]

I take this personally. I know an absurd amount of information on this game, I regularly attend regional tournaments and perform decently (more than can be said of any of the posters in this thread aside from perhaps one), and I play with many of the top players in Vegas and do well against them, and many of them ask me for advice, as well as being on the Vegas power rankings panel. I know everything there is to know about the game mechanics as far as how priorities and hitboxes work, how DI and smash DI work, character weights, recoveries, most of what has invulnerability/superarmor, jump heights and what is possible using jumps and fastfalled jumps, what autocancels, etc. and I have a good natural sense of timing from having played the game with/against every character since its release.

More than one person that's posted in this thread is well know in their region through performance or extensive knowledge.

Know your Marths before you put yourself on a throne above everyone here.

I'm not saying that he isn't more knowledgeable than I am about Marth, but saying that he knows so much more than I do, as a regular tournament attendee and respected member of the community with a strong knowledge of the game, I feel that talking down to me is the same as saying that Xyro is the best Samus because he plays "better" players, without even having tasted Tudor's steely bite or acknowledging that he goes toe-to-toe with SK92 (Ranked #3 on the whole of the west coast) and often beats SK92 and his partner in teams matches, all while maintaining the biggest smile ever and a steamy love life.

No one cares about Tudor's steamy love life and that's not even impressive. Why do you even take people that say Xyro is clearly the best seriously?

Regardless of my opinion or Emblem Lord's opinion, ad homonym attacks are wasteful, and though at times I have been guilty of them, you should all be ashamed of yourself for wasting your entire day hanging on his balls. I respect the guy immensely as a poster and a researcher, and many of his posts are high quality and it was silly to suggest that he didn't know basic combos, but I don't agree with the principle of this thread, and I think its wasteful. If Emblem Lord has a right to create the discussion, I have a right to comment on it, and I say that at best this thread is silly. Ryu's best move in every street fighter game was his Shoryuken uppercut. Without further information, that's a waste of a sentence, and triply so against people that don't understand the basic concepts of the game, and will end up getting them crushed in real play.

Are you ****ing stupid? Of course this thread is silly. Didn't I say that on one of the first posts.

How does this affect your play? It doesn't. Just like with all tier lists and matchup ratios.

At best this just makes you aware which moves are good. But you should already know that.

And since you know this is silly why are you taking offense to some scrubs that defend it? It's not even worth your time if you're as good as you say you are.

I'm surprised that someone of your caliber doesn't understand this.