This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[zeldspazz]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

The list should probably be included in the first post, if we have room.

Also, I love the name of this thread if I haven't said so already lol.

The Mage's Stages. Excellent.

Ok:

1) I will add that info in.
2) Thanks, it took a while to get the name down

MK sharks with Uair, Zelda can't do anything to stop it. MK goes back to the ledge or lands on stage, gets all his jumps back and starts sharking again. Rince and repeat. Eventually Zelda will get hit and takes damage. When the stage reaches Halberd MK will just run away and avoid any unnecessary risks until the stage starts moving and he starts sharking again.

That's how I see the fight going.



I agree on this one. The problem is that those options are not good enough to stop MK from sharking and Zelda doesn't have the necessary tools to stop it any other way either.

I think we can be done with the Halberd discussio now Sorry Mars, but I agree with them that this stage probably isnt your best bet, and continually arguing those point above isnt gonna get us anywhere since we just keep repeating the same thing.



Why dont we move on to discussing Metaknights uber good stages? Kaylo said Rainbow Cruise and Norfair I believe were bad for us. Discuss? (Im assuming we are going with Battlefield as our top stage?)

Ok nvm ^^ Ill update the OP and move on to Pikachu, good news for you Kaylo

 

[MrEh]

Norfair is bad because of all the ledges. Normally, you'd figure that Zelda would be ok with all the ledges around, since she can't be gimped. But then there's a bigger problem: you're giving MK edges to use for planking.

Not to mention that MK can shark fairly well on this stage, and Zelda lacks any surefire way to protect herself if she tries to camp the bottom platform.



Rainbow Cruise is bad for obvious reasons. lol

 

[zeldspazz]

Norfair is bad because of all the ledges. Normally, you'd figure that Zelda would be ok with all the ledges around, since she can't be gimped. But then there's a bigger problem: you're giving MK edges to use for planking.

Not to mention that MK can shark fairly well on this stage, and Zelda lacks any surefire way to protect herself if she tries to camp the bottom platform.



Rainbow Cruise is bad for obvious reasons. lol

Thanks Mr. Eh

The OP is now updated and we have offically moved on to Pikachu (go nuts Kaylo)]

OPs updates and reorganized to look less cluttered and be more efficient

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ban RC or Frigate

BF or SV is fine.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

we should **** pika on Luigi's mansion where it's legal (harder to find nowadays though)

among the other stages, Battlefield is hot

 

[Ochobobo]

I have a feeling we're gonna be seeing Battlefield a lot in these discussions, lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I wouldn't have posted it if it weren't true

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I have a feeling we're gonna be seeing Battlefield a lot in these discussions, lol

Well, it's one of her best stages in general and could very well be her best neutral, so it's only natural that it'll be often appearing when talking about good stages.

I agree with earlier suggestions (BF and LM). I think most of us already know why Luigi's is good for us, so I'm only going to say that it also limit Pika's usage of thunder besides all other good gualities it has. BF has good layout for her that also makes it slightly easier to deal with thunder and thunderjolt.

For the stages you shouldn't take Pika to... first thing that comes to mind is that high ceiling would help him more than it would help us, since his thunder would still work just as well as anywhere else and it would be harder for us to kill him with Uair, U-smash and such.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well lets think guys (just throwing stuff out for discussion):

On battlefield we pick it because Zelda is good with platforms. We should think about what we can easily do to Pikachu, what Pika can do to us, and if its worth the tradeoff. Although, thinking about it this morning, Battlefield was a great choice. Its just a matter of which one too choose, the usually banned but better stage Luigis Mansion, or the always available but lesser effective Battlefield.

Also for place not bring Pika, Im assuming Japes, FD, for high(ish) ceilings. Oh, and Im not liking Smashville, cus its so flat its just a place Id hate to bring Pika, but better than FD cus of smaller blast zones.

 

[GodAtHand]

My official answer to every matchup is battlefield.

I have officially become a spectator to this thread, simply because I don't enjoy ANY of the counterpicks... if some of them come up here though I will start practicing on them.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmmm....wheres Kaylo? XD

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Prolly writing her essay regarding Pika/Zelda MU.

Also for place not bring Pika, Im assuming Japes

Jungle Japes was exactly what was in my mind. Not only does it have ridiculously high ceiling, but it also gives pika lots of other advantages. If Pika were to get a lead it would be nearly impossible for Zelda to approach him camping in other of the side platforms.

He also deals much better with the water than Zelda does: his insane recovery is usually enough to prevent him from dying because of it (other than after being spiked) and is enough to get him back to the stage without being punished. Whenever Zelda falls into water there're two things that can happen: she will die or get punished hard.

 

[zeldspazz]

It seems when I think about it Metaknights + Pikachu's strengths/weakness are the same, just Metaknights strengths are more extreme

 

[KayLo!]

Japes actually isn't so bad vs. Pikachu.... it's not necessarily a horrible stage for him, but if you camp one of the smaller platforms, Pika has almost zero approach options, and Zelda can outcamp him due to the nature of her projectile vs. his.

Once he gets on you, though, you'll have a hard time getting away again, and the water screws Zelda over much, much more than it screws over Pika. Outright killing will be a problem for both characters.... thunder doesn't even reach to the top of the screen here, so KOs from it are rare on Japes.

In general, Pikachu's best stage is Final Destination. He also does well on Halberd, Delfino, PS1 & 2, Smashville, and sometimes Norfair and RC (both very character-dependent).

His worst stage is Brinstar. Luigi's Mansion used to be considered awful as well, but since the discovery of jab locking, which is pretty easy to set up on this stage, it's not nearly as bad. Still ban-worthy from his POV, though, if it's not already tourney-banned.

Tbh, Pikachu is the king of neutrality... he doesn't excel beyond belief on any stage (except maybe FD), but he doesn't do terribad on any stage either except for Brinstar. Pika mains also tend to be really diverse in their stage picks since Pikachu is pretty versatile.... some love platforms, others hate them... some love janky stages for pulling off QAC tricks & other shenanigans, etc. etc.

My suggestions would be:

Good stages (consider CPing): Brinstar*, Battlefield, Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion
Bad stages (consider banning): Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 1, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise

*I'm not really sure about Brinstar since I've played there maybe a handful of times with Zelda.... I dunno how well she's supposed to do there. If you like that stage, take him there as your first choice.

Like I said, though, Pikas are weird. Some of us hate certain stages that others love, so it really depends on your opponent.... especially on how campy/QAC-happy they are.

Campachus will prefer flatter/tjolt-friendlier stages like FD, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium 1. (The sub-breed Ledgecampachu will be partial to Norfair.)

Platform Pikas (sort of a sub-breed of QAC Pikas since they can QA around on the various platforms) tend to like Smashville, Battlefield, and Lylat. Halberd and Delfino are also good for QAC tricks since Pika can QA up through the stage.

Pikas who like to pull fancy shenanigans will probably like stages such as Delfino, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion (I told you we're weird), RC, Frigate, and PS2.

Some Pikas love walk-off BS even though we can't CG Zelda. Those 'chus might take you to Delfino, Castle Siege, or RC.

Hope that helps. <3

 

[zeldspazz]

Japes actually isn't so bad vs. Pikachu.... it's not necessarily a horrible stage for him, but if you camp one of the smaller platforms, Pika has almost zero approach options, and Zelda can outcamp him due to the nature of her projectile vs. his.

Once he gets on you, though, you'll have a hard time getting away again, and the water screws Zelda over much, much more than it screws over Pika. Outright killing will be a problem for both characters.... thunder doesn't even reach to the top of the screen here, so KOs from it are rare on Japes.

In general, Pikachu's best stage is Final Destination. He also does well on Halberd, Delfino, PS1 & 2, Smashville, and sometimes Norfair and RC (both very character-dependent).

His worst stage is Brinstar. Luigi's Mansion used to be considered awful as well, but since the discovery of jab locking, which is pretty easy to set up on this stage, it's not nearly as bad. Still ban-worthy from his POV, though, if it's not already tourney-banned.

Tbh, Pikachu is the king of neutrality... he doesn't excel beyond belief on any stage (except maybe FD), but he doesn't do terribad on any stage either except for Brinstar. Pika mains also tend to be really diverse in their stage picks since Pikachu is pretty versatile.... some love platforms, others hate them... some love janky stages for pulling off QAC tricks & other shenanigans, etc. etc.

My suggestions would be:

Good stages (consider CPing): Brinstar*, Battlefield, Castle Siege, Luigi's Mansion
Bad stages (consider banning): Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 1, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise

*I'm not really sure about Brinstar since I've played there maybe a handful of times with Zelda.... I dunno how well she's supposed to do there. If you like that stage, take him there as your first choice.

Like I said, though, Pikas are weird. Some of us hate certain stages that others love, so it really depends on your opponent.... especially on how campy/QAC-happy they are.

Campachus will prefer flatter/tjolt-friendlier stages like FD, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium 1. (The sub-breed Ledgecampachu will be partial to Norfair.)

Platform Pikas (sort of a sub-breed of QAC Pikas since they can QA around on the various platforms) tend to like Smashville, Battlefield, and Lylat. Halberd and Delfino are also good for QAC tricks since Pika can QA up through the stage.

Pikas who like to pull fancy shenanigans will probably like stages such as Delfino, Norfair, Luigi's Mansion (I told you we're weird), RC, Frigate, and PS2.

Some Pikas love walk-off BS even though we can't CG Zelda. Those 'chus might take you to Delfino, Castle Siege, or RC.

Hope that helps. <3

I <3 you Kaylo and your walls of text ^_^

Im thinking now FD is a defident no, since Zelda doesnt like flat stages anyway and you say its Pika's best stage

I still think Jungle Japes will be one of the worst ones, and wait for people to elaborate on Brinstar, since I dont know much about that stage myself.

Some a question though:

Why do campachus go to PS1?

Everyone, read Kaylo's post very completely theres a TON of information only a pika main could provide us

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I know that every transformation of PS 1 supports Pika's tjolt camping with one way or other so that's one reason.

As for Brinstar, I personally don't think that stage should be the first choice to take Pika to. It has too many things that Zelda must watch out for.

The pass-through main stage makes it hard to sweetspot FW there meaning Zelda'll get punished every time she needs to recover. The stage also forces her to get into air every time the acid rises, leaving her vulnerable because of her aerial moveset.

The main stage is also very uneven and in certain parts you can't walk forward without getting stuck, meaning you'll have to jump to move from the other side of the stage to the other. Against most of the characters this isn't too big of a problem but when fighting someone as small as Pika it gives him many changes to get below Zelda and creates him many opening to get through her defences.

I can see that it gives Zelda some advantages like allowing move refreshment and making her smashes last longer by attacking the slimes, but I think it also causes her too much trouble to be the best choice.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I would definitely avoid FD, Japes and Halberd in this matchup.

 

[zeldspazz]

Is there a deeper meaning for avoiding Halberd other than the QAC through the bottom? Because I wouldnt mind it because of the low ceiling, the ledges arent too bad, just gotta pay a bit more attention. I thought we were just saying to this stage during metaknight since he can shark so easily.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Is there a deeper meaning for avoiding Halberd other than the QAC through the bottom? Because I wouldnt mind it because of the low ceiling, the ledges arent too bad, just gotta pay a bit more attention. I thought we were just saying to this stage during metaknight since he can shark so easily.

the ceiling isn't especially low... in fact, I wouldn't call it low at all... I'd say it's pretty average in height. It's a lot like FD for zelda with flatness... the single platform isn't really helpful and, while it's moving, the ledges spell doom for zelda.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is there a deeper meaning for avoiding Halberd other than the QAC through the bottom? Because I wouldnt mind it because of the low ceiling, the ledges arent too bad, just gotta pay a bit more attention. I thought we were just saying to this stage during metaknight since he can shark so easily.

I think a lot of Zelda's have trouble recovering on the stage. Other than that I can't really see any reason to avoid it.

the ceiling isn't especially low... in fact, I wouldn't call it low at all... I'd say it's pretty average in height. It's a lot like FD for zelda with flatness... the single platform isn't really helpful and, while it's moving, the ledges spell doom for zelda.

It's is really low actually.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It's is really low actually.

it may be lower than battlefield, but the difference between KOing pikachu from the bottom platform of battlefiled and the bottom platform of Halberd is probably the equivatlent of a dtit's worth of damage.

And while Halberd's LOWEST platform might be closer to the top than Battlefield's fir example, it's highest is farther away than battlefied's highest.



Edit: and don't say platforms don't count because, otherwise, FD would be essentially no worse than battlefield.

 

[zeldspazz]

New Pork City: 118 (Bottom)
*Jungle Japes: 100/97/93
Summit: 94 (Bottom) 71 (Top)
Green Hill Zone: 89/80/74
*Luigi's Mansion: 88/84/78/67
Mario Circuit: 88/81/73
Shadow Moses: 88/80/70
Onett: 88
*Pirate Ship: 85
Skyworld: 85/80/76/70
Havenbow: 85
*Pictochat: 84
Eldin: 83
*Pokemon Stadium 2: 83/75
*Battlefield: 82/75/68
*FD: 82
*Delfino: 82
*Norfair: 82/74/67
*Yoshi's Island: 82/75
*Lylat Cruise: 82/74
Spear Pillar: 82
*Castle Siege: 82-88-81
Distant Planet: 82
*Smashville: 82/74
*Frigate: 81-77
*Brinstar: 81/74/68
Wario Ware: 79
*Halberd: 77/75/68-73/65
Aero Dive: 77
FlatZone2: 77
*Rainbow Ride: 75
Green Greens: 75
Yoshi's Island (Melee): 74
Corneria: 74/70/57
Mushroomy: 67​

Actually, Halberd has a vert small ceiling, much shorter in fact Kyle. So, In terms of Vertical killing Halbers is better. Your right in saying that the top platform in Battlefield is shorter than the lowest point at Halberd, but your gonna get less kills off one platform than the entire bottom of the stage. This is in the OP btw if you didnt know

Edit:

And while Halberd's LOWEST platform might be closer to the top than Battlefield's fir example, it's highest is farther away than battlefied's highest.

This is wrong. The highest point at Halberd is shorter than highest point at battlefield

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

.... where are all those platform heights coming from on halberd? there's not THAT much going on... and, the difference between 77 and 82 damage is, like, a couple Dtilts *shrug* (depends on DI..... blah)

anyway, Zelda doesn't do well with it's layout. I swear not being able to sweetspot a ledge can KILL YOU.... at least pika doesn't have a bunch of moves that can put you in a bad position offstage, but, still. And the stage doesn't have much platform cover either. It's like a shorter battlefield when it's not moving and not a good zelda stage when it is moving. You get a boost in vertical kill power, but is it really enough?

maybe the hieght doesn't seem so small to me is because there isn't a WHOLE lot of variation when it comes to height. Small height is nice.... but I don't think it's as impotant as layout.... and I hate halberd's layout for her.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Um, zeldspazz, is that the ceiling height when the platform is flying around or when it lands on the Halberd ship? I'm quite sure the ceiling once it lands is significantly higher than when it's flying around. I could be wrong, but merrr.

 

[zeldspazz]

Um, zeldspazz, is that the ceiling height when the platform is flying around or when it lands on the Halberd ship? I'm quite sure the ceiling once it lands is significantly higher than when it's flying around. I could be wrong, but merrr.

Idk, I didnt make the list I just copied it from another thread XD Im assuming its both, and one of the heights is while flying a one while its stationary. I could find out, but I dont tihnk its a big deal since its not going to be a nominee for best or worst

Edit: I say we do halberd for the next stage discussion cus this comes up a lot with a lot of disagreements lol

 

[KayLo!]

People pretty much answered your questions already, but:

Why do campachus love PS1?

Campachus love PS1 because, as someone else said, every transformation benefits Pikachu's camping in some way.

The normal transformation is pretty basic and flat-ish, and we can use camp to force you onto a platform or make Zelda approach.

The Fire transformation has that funky tree, which we can camp behind on either side since tjolt clings to the ground. On the left, we can jab or dtilt lock as well, and our jab is significantly faster than anything Zelda has. It's also kinda ridiculously disjointed considering it's just Pika's head, lol.

The Rock transformation lets us camp from either side of the big rock cliff thingy on the left. There are a dozen places from which we can tjolt safely even if you try to reflect them all.

The water transformation is a mixed bag. QAC shenanigans can be too fun here, and we can use the windmill to tech and live from hits that would otherwise kill us. The windmill can also be used to set up jab locks, although the fact that it moves can screw us up..... also, tjolt camping if you're stuck underneath the windmill can be really annoying for Zelda.

The grass transformation is probably the least useful for us. The platforms aren't too bad, but they don't really benefit us particularly well.... in terms of this matchup, this is probably the most neutral of all the transformations.

Why is Halberd a bad choice besides QAC tricks?

Well, as far as the QAC tricks, the permeable bottom of the stage allows Pika to ledgecamp and mix up his recovery a lot more than usual. Increased unpredictability is something you don't want Pikachu to have, because that's how he's going to win the match vs. Zelda.... by baiting her and creating approach opportunities, because otherwise Zelda shuts down a lot of his options.

Besides that, everybody's saying "but it has a low ceiling!!!!! early kills!!!!" but a smart Pikachu isn't going to be falling into usmashes that often, lol. When coming down from the ground, we have QAC to vary our landing patterns so that we can avoid falling into the center of usmash. Hyphen usmashes hit Pika from the side, allowing him to SDI down out of them before the last hit and giving him a free punish. (I still think he can SDI out of usmash in other circumstances, but Kataefi says otherwise, so I'm going with him until I can do more testing.) With Halberd's platform, this becomes even easier, since it gives us more safe places to land.

Also, low ceiling = earlier usmash/thunder KOs for us as well (utilt > thunder is guaranteed if we read your DI.... too much hitstun to pull out Naryu's in time). Low ceilings are beneficial for both characters (if Corneria was legal, Pikas would have a field day), so I wouldn't count it only in Zelda's favor.

The stage hazards aren't a huge deal, but Pikachu has more tools to force Zelda into them than Zelda has vs. Pika. Don't get grabbed when hazards are about to come out.... he'll toss or combo you into them out of his throws.

And Zelda sucks at recovery on this stage. On the floating part, the permeable bottom and smaller sweetspot area on the ledge mean that you need to really be on-point with your FW. On the part when the platform lands, the ledges have a weird dip under them that can put Zelda in some pretty impossible recovery situations if you're not careful. Also, Pika can wall jump -- not that our recovery isn't already ridiculously good, but if we're super low, we can Skull Bash > wall jump to put ourselves in a better QA position.

I dunno. I wouldn't take him here.

 

[zeldspazz]

Wow, combine what you said about PS1 and the fact that it has impossible ledges, it seems like a very bad stage to bring Pikachu >.< Im thinking Ill add that to the Worst Stages part as suggested Kaylo

Does anyone have anything else to say about this? If not, then Im just gonna take the rest of Kaylo's information and move on.

Ok, Im gonna mvoe on to Ness since we gots the low tier tourney coming up

 

[Elder Sister]

oh zeldspazz, im so prouda ya^^
this thread has a great turnout, congrats!!!

Spoiler

(i know im kinda late>.>)

ill see if i post something later

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Against ness I'd ban Rainbow Cruise or Delfino Plaza he's also pretty good on frigate.

Good stages for Zelda would be Battlefield PS1 or Luigi's Mansion.

 

[zeldspazz]

Against ness I'd ban Rainbow Cruise or Delfino Plaza he's also pretty good on frigate.

Good stages for Zelda would be Battlefield PS1 or Luigi's Mansion.

Ok , can you give some explaination for your choices?

oh zeldspazz, im so prouda ya^^
this thread has a great turnout, congrats!!!

Spoiler

(i know im kinda late>.>)

ill see if i post something later

Lol, thanks I hope you do post something, I worked hard on this thread

 

[xoxokev]

out of the neutrals, ness' best stage is probably Battlefield, because it allows for easy/safe PK Thunder juggling, it also allows ness to maximize his use of aerial attacks due to the platforms. some people say that his worst neutral is Yoshi's Island, bc his PK Thunder gets eaten if he uses it too close to the stage from below, but personally that doesn't happen much to me. of the legal counterpicks, stages that allow ness to jump through the main platform from below are generally better for him. those stages include Deflino Plaza, Halberd, and Brinstar. of the banned stages, ness' best stage is Pirate Ship due to the water and the easy spike.

hope this helps good luck with the rest of your discussion

 

[Uffe]

Best Stage:

Brinstar, Pirate Ship, Delfino Plaza, Final Destination and Battlefield.

Detailed Summary:

1. Brinstar: He's able to create fire pillars easily, the blast zones are closer which make his kill moves more dangerous. The acid also makes for a safer return in case something bad happens while he recovers.
   
2. Pirate Ship: It's most likely banned in your area, depending on where you live. But this is a place he doesn't have to use PKT2 as much to make it back to safety. He's also able to spike early on if his opponent is in the water. Of course things are subject to change over the match.
   
3. Delfino Plaza: Same deal as Pirate Ship. He can also KO early with his throws if the stage is made into a walk-off stage.
   
4. Final Destination: The stage pretty much opens a lot of options for Ness such as PK Thunder, Fire, Flash, all aerials, flat surface for particular moves such as the Yo-yo, etc.
   
5. Battlefield: Not exactly one of his best stages, but it works pretty well for him depending on the opponent. He can stay under the platforms and attack from below with ensured safety. This is pretty much more of PK Flash and PK Thunder, though.

Other Good Stages:

Probably Smashville, maybe Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2, and obviously Corneria, which is most likely banned. Overall, Ness doesn't really have too much bad stages. Some can be counterpicked against him for certain characters, but that's probably about it.

Worst Stages:

1. Yoshi's Island Melee and Brawl: The Melee version, not sure if it's banned, probably does a lot better for Zelda than Ness. Too much things are in the way. Perhaps I just did horrible that one time because I never go there, who knows? I know Yoshi's Island in Brawl isn't good for Ness. For his recovery, if he's low enough, he can get gimped by the Platform Ghost.
   
   Those flat walls don't exactly let Ness ride up on them but instead make him bounce off. The stage itself doesn't have a flat surface, so Ness would have to stay on the sides if he wanted to use his PK Fire.
   
2. Lylat Cruise: Not exactly the worst, but not exactly his best. The stage is somewhat of a nuisance than it is horrible. The stages surface doesn't really let Ness use his Yo-yo and his PK Fire, depending on whatever side is downward and you're facing the opposite of that. If that confused you. I'm talking about how if Ness is on the left side and the left side is leaned downward while the right is upward, PK Fire is basically useless from there. The stage overall can gimp Ness if his aim isn't precise.

Summary:

This is probably used for something else, but from the looks of things, Ness doesn't really have too much bad stages. Again, there are some stages that could be useful as a counterpick for other characters against Ness. An example would be Distant Planet. Not exactly a bad stage for Ness, but if you're fighting Yoshi, he'll try to bait you into coming near the left side of the stage so he can grab release to take a stock from Ness. Anyway, I hope this was helpful.

 

[zeldspazz]

^ Very helpful Uffe, I'll take the time a little later to read it more carefully but Im rushed right now lol

You too xoxokev

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok , can you give some explaination for your choices?




Lol, thanks I hope you do post something, I worked hard on this thread

Well I figure that Delfino is one of his better stages because while the stage is moving his PKT get's annoying same with PKT 2. It goes underneath the bottom platform and can increase mind game and stupid KO's.

Luigi's Mansion limit a lot of Ness's option and the PKT mind games. It's obviously Zelda's best stage and a good CP and such. This shouldn't need too much explanation.

 

[KayLo!]

Ness on Brinstar is a ****ing beast. Ban it, ban it, ban it! And RC is another I'd consider banning.

I'll write more later, but it'll probably be somewhat like Uffe's list.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Next Character? Watch out for Brinstar, RC and Delfinio. CP Luigi's or PS1. Battlefield or Lylat for Starter. Your fine.

 

[zeldspazz]

Heres the thing. I dont think Luigis Mansion is going to be a very top pick. Yeah, we can Dins through Pillars, but he can set the pillars aflame just like at Brinstar, except there are 4 oppurtunities to do it at Luigis Mansion. He can easily set up a jab lock here, and he lives longer, just like us. Im just not thinking this place is benefitting Zelda as much as it usually would.

 

[MrEh]

Mansion is banned in most places anyway, so eh.

What you take him to doesn't matter. I like BF. Just ban Brinstar and be done with it.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I like Yoshi's and Smashville against ness.

Mansion's nothing special, but it does completely kill his ability to use PK thunder onstage.

Still not sure if banning Brinstar is what I'd do. It's a great Ness stage, but it's a good Zelda stage. I'm wonderifng if there are any stages that ness really likes that zelda actually doesn't.

 

[AzNfinesse]

i'd also consider banning pirate ship if you're not too good at that...if ness catches you in the water ur screwed.

i always CP PS1 or SV against ness. pick any stage that would otherwise interrupt his PK 1 and throw off his PK 2.