This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I love brinstar . . . but I think it'd be bad against meta... honestly he'd have control over all angles on that stage.

 

[zeldspazz]

Does anyone object/have a different stage to discuss other than Battlefield?

 

[KayLo!]

I listed a bunch of stages to CP/ban in my post..... x.x

 

[-Mars-]

Lol I take MK to FD and Halberd. I prefer having space to deal with him instead of taking him to say BF where he'll be inside of me at every moment wrecking me.

Spacing fsmashes against MK is probably one of the few things Zelda has going for her in this matchup. Even though MK's ftilt outranges it.......most of the time they won't even think to just use their ftilt instead of shielding.

Also on BF Zelda dies on the sides pretty early while on Halberd the low ceiling works more in Zelda's favor than it does for MK. If he's coming at you from underneath the stage on Halberd just jump on the platform lol.

 

[KayLo!]

If he's coming at you from underneath the stage on Halberd just jump on the platform lol.

Chances are, he'll have the lead. What're you gonna do then? Wait for the platform to land and waste tons of time?

The dude has five jumps. He can just come up, land quickly, then do the same thing under the platform you're on.... x.x

There's a reason why MK players love Halberd.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

This thread is looking good!

Okay, since MK doesn't actually have any bad stages I personally always just rule out stages I'd never take him to and choose my favorite from the ones that are left. So these are the things I think you don't want a stage to have in this match:

• No platforms/other protection. MK's moveset is simply better than Zelda's, meaning that he will dominate if you don't have some sort of help.
• Tricky ledges/other things limiting recovery. MK is gimping master and our recovery is very vulnerable to that. The last thing you want to do is to have stage limiting your options.
• Big blastzones. In order to win Zelda has to kill him early. Big blastzones will prevent this.
• Stages with troublesome hazards. In general, MK outmaneuvers us and thus has easier time avoiding these. His moveset is also much more suitable for sending opponents into them than ours.
• Stages with lots of ledges or places that allow for easy camping. That's one thing MK shouldn't be allowed to do if you want to win.
• Stages that force Zelda into air since MK will destroy her there.

These take away at least Yoshi's Island, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise, Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino, Brinstar, Norfair, Jungle Japes, and to a lesser extend, Frigate Orpheon, Pirate Ship and Pictochat.

From the ones left I think that Battlefield is the safest option. It gives Zelda some help with platforms and is small enough to help her getting some early KOs. It's also fairly easy stage to recover in and doesn't have any changing things that could mess up with your game.

The next best stages in my opinion are Castle Siege and Smashville. The first one has some nice platforms for Zelda to use and doesn't give any considerable advantages to MK (other than the second transformation which gives him lots of space to avoid us. Thankfully this is only temporary.) Smashville on the other hand is similar to Final Destination except for few things. It's slightly smaller and has smaller blastzones. Both of these are good for Zelda. It also has a moving platform that occasionally appears and may help her, and finally, it's easier to recover in than FD.

Also, unlike in most of the other matches I wouldn't recommend Luigi's when facing MK. It lets him live a lot longer if he uses it right, he can run circles around you in there and still has more than enough ways to get past Zelda's pillar camping. The side blastlines are also almost too small: it's very easy for MK to hit you out even with something like Fair.

 

[zeldspazz]

This thread is looking good!

Okay, since MK doesn't actually have any bad stages I personally always just rule out stages I'd never take him to and choose my favorite from the ones that are left. So these are the things I think you don't want a stage to have in this match:

• No platforms/other protection. MK's moveset is simply better than Zelda's, meaning that he will dominate if you don't have some sort of help.
• Tricky ledges/other things limiting recovery. MK is gimping master and our recovery is very vulnerable to that. The last thing you want to do is to have stage limiting your options.
• Big blastzones. In order to win Zelda has to kill him early. Big blastzones will prevent this.
• Stages with troublesome hazards. In general, MK outmaneuvers us and thus has easier time avoiding these. His moveset is also much more suitable for sending opponents into them than ours.
• Stages with lots of ledges or places that allow for easy camping. That's one thing MK shouldn't be allowed to do if you want to win.
• Stages that force Zelda into air since MK will destroy her there.

These take away at least Yoshi's Island, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise,Pokemon Stadium 1, Delfino, Brinstar, Norfair, Jungle Japes, to a lesser extend Frigate Orpheon, Pirate Ship and Pictochat.

From the ones left I think that Battlefield is the safest option. It gives Zelda some help with platforms and is small enough to help her getting some early KOs. It's also fairly easy stage to recover in and doesn't have any changing things that could mess up with your game.

The next best stages in my opinion are Castle Siege and Smashville. The first one has some nice platforms for Zelda to use and doesn't give any considerable advantages to MK (other than the second tranform, which gives him lots of space to avoid us. Thankfully this is only temporary.) Smashville on the other hand is similar to Final Destination except for few things. It's slightly smaller and has smaller blastzones. Both of these are good for Zelda. It also has a moving platform that occasionally appears and may help her, and finally, it's easier to recover in than FD.

Also, unlike in most of the other matches I wouldn't recommend Luigi's when facing MK. It lest him live a lot longer if he uses it right, he can run circles around you in there and still has more than enough ways to get past Zelda's pillar camping. The side blastlines are also almost too small: it's very easy for MK to hit you out even with something like Fair.

Very informative thanks HSS

Yes it seems that Battlefield, Smashville (why Kaylo why???), and Castle Seige are popular for this.

Im also gussing that Rainbow Cruise and Norfair are horrible to bring him too cus of constantly being in the air with Rainbow Cruise and lots of ledges for planking and such at Norfair. If only there was a stage that actually disadvantaged MK....>.>

 

[KayLo!]

Smashville (why Kaylo why???)

Why what? x.x I'm so confused.

I explained my reasoning in my post. Not at any great length, but I didn't think I needed to clarify much more than I did.

 

[zeldspazz]

Why what? x.x I'm so confused.

I explained my reasoning in my post. Not at any great length, but I didn't think I needed to clarify much more than I did.

Well, it just seems weird to me that people are immediately dismissing Final Destination, but then saying Smashville is an ok stage. To me, they seem the same except for the ledges =\

Edit: Oh and you mentioned something called "sharking" in your post, what is that?

 

[Ochobobo]

Well, it just seems weird to me that people are immediately dismissing Final Destination, but then saying Smashville is an ok stage. To me, they seem the same except for the ledges =\

Edit: Oh and you mentioned something called "sharking" in your post, what is that?

I think most Meta Knights ban Final Destination, don't they?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Edit: Oh and you mentioned something called "sharking" in your post, what is that?

Trying to ninja post an answer into the question before KayLo!:

Sharking means an act where a character attacks through a platform from below, usually with aerials. It can be done under every drop-trough platform and also some bigger ones (the moving main platforms of Delfino and Halberd, Brinstar). It usually refers especially to attacking from under the main stage instead of some smaller platforms. It's a very safe way to attack someone and especially characters with multiple jumps are very good in it.

 

[KayLo!]

Well, it just seems weird to me that people are immediately dismissing Final Destination, but then saying Smashville is an ok stage. To me, they seem the same except for the ledges =\

There's a few key differences between FD and Smashville when it comes to MK.

For one, FD is much bigger.... MK will survive considerably longer on FD, which gives him more time to **** Zelda. Not goodz.

Second, Smashville has a platform. It doesn't make a huge difference, but it can occasionally give you some cover or allow you to attack him from below if he lands on it. You can also mix up your recovery if it's on your side when you're trying to get back onto the stage.

And Smashville is small, but it's not super-cramped like some other stages. You'll still be able to run away if you need to (or at least try to run away, considering MK is a lot faster, lol), but MK has less space to do so if he's trying to play keep-away with the lead.

I think most Meta Knights ban Final Destination, don't they?

Also, that.

Trying to ninja post an answer into the question before KayLo!:

I hate you, lol. I love being helpful!!!

*head explodes*

 

[-Mars-]

Chances are, he'll have the lead. What're you gonna do then? Wait for the platform to land and waste tons of time?

The dude has five jumps. He can just come up, land quickly, then do the same thing under the platform you're on.... x.x

There's a reason why MK players love Halberd.

If he ever has the lead against Zelda he can just run away and there's not much you can do about it on any stage lol.

His aerial movement speed is actually fairly slow.......it's not hard to avoid a blatant attempt to get at you from under the stage. If he uses tornado then just shield, then he's committed to landing on the stage.

He also dies at around 90% from a fresh usmash. Lightning kicks kill him at around 70-75%. If you're going to have any chance at beating him as Zelda you need a stage with a lot of room and with small blastzones.

 

[KayLo!]

Whatever you say. I wouldn't take MK to Halberd, ever, but feel free to if you wanna.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

There's a few key differences between FD and Smashville when it comes to MK.

For one, FD is much bigger.... MK will survive considerably longer on FD, which gives him more time to **** Zelda. Not goodz.

Second, Smashville has a platform. It doesn't make a huge difference, but it can occasionally give you some cover or allow you to attack him from below if he lands on it. You can also mix up your recovery if it's on your side when you're trying to get back onto the stage.

And Smashville is small, but it's not super-cramped like some other stages. You'll still be able to run away if you need to (or at least try to run away, considering MK is a lot faster, lol), but MK has less space to do so if he's trying to play keep-away with the lead.



Also, that.



I hate you, lol. I love being helpful!!!

*head explodes*

If you want cover from a platform wouldn't Yoshi's be better? Can't some of those lagless platform tricks mess up your attempts to punish?

@marsalus you don't want to take mk to any stage where he can shark you unless you're snake.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I hate you, lol. I love being helpful!!!

Well, so do I! Deal with it!

*victory dance*



And yes, Smashville is better against MK than FD. Besides what KayLo! said it also has some tricks that might sometimes in some situations possibly be useful, like Uairing through the main stage. Not that it'd amazingly good stage or anything, but we have to grasp any help we might get. Only thing that's worse there is the balloon: whenever it appears you'll have to get into air to pop it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, so do I! Deal with it!

*victory dance*



And yes, Smashville is better against MK than FD. Besides what KayLo! said it also has some tricks that might sometimes in some situations possibly be useful, like Uairing through the main stage. Not that it'd amazingly good stage or anything, but we have to grasp any help we might get. Only thing that's worse there is the balloon: whenever it appears you'll have to get into air to pop it.

LK the ballon FTW =/.

 

[KayLo!]

If you want cover from a platform wouldn't Yoshi's be better? Can't some of those lagless platform tricks mess up your attempts to punish?

I don't mind Yoshi's so much, but I wouldn't say it's a good CP. More like it's just okay. The sides of the stage are complete bull****, and the middle platform seems to get in my way more than it helps..... but I guess the same could be said for MK since he'll want to be in the air, and the platform limits everybody's air game a bit.

I'm really not too sure about Yoshi's. I rarely play there since I always strike it, and nobody ever CPs it.

The ceiling there is a little too high for me, though, vs. MK.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't mind Yoshi's so much, but I wouldn't say it's a good CP. More like it's just okay. The sides of the stage are complete bull****, and the middle platform seems to get in my way more than it helps..... but I guess the same could be said for MK since he'll want to be in the air, and the platform limits everybody's air game a bit.

I'm really not too sure about Yoshi's. I rarely play there since I always strike it, and nobody ever CPs it.

The ceiling there is a little too high for me, though, vs. MK.

It may be high but killing off the side isn't too bad. I play the stage a lot just for the pratice. I have my stage thing on random. But the wall really doesn't screw me either that or I am not as bothered by it as I used to be. Also the wall limits MK some what and could lead to possible gimps if he recovers too low with his up B.

 

[-Mars-]

@marsalus you don't want to take mk to any stage where he can shark you unless you're snake.

Sharking is the least of your worries if you're counterpicking stages against MK. Like I said you want a stage with low blastzones AND a lot of space. If you're playing on BF or Smashville MK is just going to be in your face the whole time using his enormous frame advantage to destroy you.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sharking is the least of your worries if you're counterpicking stages against MK. Like I said you want a stage with low blastzones AND a lot of space. If you're playing on BF or Smashville MK is just going to be in your face the whole time using his enormous frame advantage to destroy you.

So instead reducing options that MK has against you. You want to increase them? That logic is rather silly. If you won the first round lose the second and you're going to CP a stage that gives MK more of an advantage over you? I'm having trouble following you logic if you want a stage with small blast zones I suggest ps1. Japes isn't a bad CP but the cieling is dumb high and is banned a lot of places.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

But the wall really screws me either that or I am not as bothered by it as I used to be.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here, could you rephrase it?


About the other points in your post: I don't see how the wall would limit MK. It's true that if he goes very very low and is right next to the wall he may get stuck under the stage with Up-b, but why would he get so low and close to the wall? He also has five jumps to help him get higher and further away, so it shouldn't be a problem. And finally, Zelda's attacks tend to send enemies flying into upward-diagonal direction, so if MK doesn't die straight from the attack he can always recover without trouble from high.

 

[KayLo!]

Sharking is the least of your worries if you're counterpicking stages against MK. Like I said you want a stage with low blastzones AND a lot of space. If you're playing on BF or Smashville MK is just going to be in your face the whole time using his enormous frame advantage to destroy you.

So you'd rather go to a stage where MK will get the lead (because he pretty much always will), then stall you out and absolutely 100% safely attack you at your most vulnerable point (beneath you)? Interesting logic there.

When you get Shuttle Looped up the *** a few times in a row, I won't even feel bad for you. Smashville isn't impossibly small (it's pretty much the same size as Halberd half the time except for the ceiling height), and BF's platform layout is good for Zelda.... it somewhat balances out the small size.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here, could you rephrase it?


About the other points in your post: I don't see how the wall would limit MK. It's true that if he goes very very low and is right next to the wall he may get stucl under the stage whith Up-b, but why would he get so low and close to the wall? He also has five jumps to help him get higher and further away, so it shouldn't be a problem. And finally, Zelda's attacks tend to send enemies flying into upward-diagonal direction, so if MK doesn't die straight from the attack he can always recover without trouble.

Like when i die because of the wall I don't take as much notice of it as I used too. Or i may be dying less. Because he DI'd dsmash wrong. Or dins put him into that position by force air dodges and such.

 

[KayLo!]

MK has five jumps and a ridiculous number of recovery options. If he's getting wall-gimped by Yoshi's, he's doing something seriously wrong.

 

[Kataefi]

When you get Shuttle Looped up the ***

Yeah..erm, I lol'd >.< The imagery is just too strong for me.

If he is sharking, could we not platform camp the top platform and wait until his jumps are over? If he needs to use his up+b, then we've sort of predicted him.

I kinda think... **** it, he's going to gimp us anyways... might as well go to the place that'll kill him the earliest.

Does anyone have that stage list with the ceiling and blastzone heights?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Like when i die because of the wall I don't take as much notice of it as I used too. Or i may be dying less.

Okay, now I understand what you meant.

Because he DI'd dsmash wrong. Or dins put him into that position by force air dodges and such.

I admit that forced airdodge might get him near the bottom of the stage and near the wall and D-smash could get him near the bottom corner if he DI:ed it wrong. However, any MK worth their mask should easily get back to the stage from both of those situations. If they just know to watch out for the very bottom of the stage, meaning the wall won't really help you. At best it could cost MK one stock, at worst it could cost you all your stocks. I don't think that's a risk worth taking.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Okay, now I understand what you meant.



I admit that forced airdodge might get him near the bottom of the stage and near the wall and D-smash could get him near the bottom corner if he DI:ed it wrong. However, any MK worth their mask should easily get back to the stage from both of those situations. If they just know to watch out for the very bottom of the stage, meaning the wall won't really help you. At best it could cost MK one stock, at worst it could cost you all your stocks. I don't think that's a risk worth taking.

i think its worth the risk. I also think you may be forgetting how that may mess with his head. They may let then din hit instead of air dodge than you have an uair.

@kaylo that may be true but we can't expect every MK to know how to respond properly to everything. More than likely you wont get that gimp but to open them up to that possibility and have them react differently or to the way you want them to is key.

Well atleast thats how i think.

 

[-Mars-]

So you'd rather go to a stage where MK will get the lead (because he pretty much always will), then stall you out and absolutely 100% safely attack you at your most vulnerable point (beneath you)? Interesting logic there.

When you get Shuttle Looped up the *** a few times in a row, I won't even feel bad for you. Smashville isn't impossibly small (it's pretty much the same size as Halberd half the time except for the ceiling height), and BF's platform layout is good for Zelda.... it somewhat balances out the small size.

When you counterpick stages you don't say to yourself "Oh I better not counterpick that because MK willl just get the lead!!!" lol. Say he doesn't get the lead. Sure he can attempt to hit me from under the stage, but like I already said his aerial movement speed is fairly slow, Zelda doesn't have too much trouble avoiding it.

He cant shuttle loop me from beneath if i'm standing on the platform.

By the way beneath Zelda is only a weakness when she's in the air. Grounded she has dtilt with it's insane priority and spiking ability. Not saying this makes her safe against something like MK's uair, but she fares about as well as most characters not named Snake when dealing with an opponent under her when she's grounded.

Edit: Kataefi at least gets it

 

[KayLo!]

If he is sharking, could we not platform camp the top platform and wait until his jumps are over? If he needs to use his up+b, then we've sort of predicted him.

I kinda think... **** it, he's going to gimp us anyways... might as well go to the place that'll kill him the earliest.

Here's the thing.

He doesn't have to use all five of his jumps at once, lol. He can just go back to the ledge. Also, with five jumps, he can easily just jump to the stage, and then you're still above him on the top platform, which is a bad thing.

Point: Halberd allows MK to stay beneath you for nearly the entire match. That's a bad thing. You won't be killing him early if you can't touch him, because he's completely safe the entire time he's doing this. His uair has more range and disjointedness than anything we can hit him with while he's below us.

@Mars: Sword from below > dtilt, lol. Don't be silly, now.

But whatevs, if you guys want to take MKs to Halberd, have fun with that. Like I said, it's one of his best stages for a reason, but if you wanna take the best character in the game -- and one of our worst matchups -- to one of his favorite boards.... well. There you go.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When you counterpick stages you don't say to yourself "Oh I better not counterpick that because MK willl just get the lead!!!" lol. Say he doesn't get the lead. Sure he can attempt to hit me from under the stage, but like I already said his aerial movement speed is fairly slow, Zelda doesn't have too much trouble avoiding it.

He cant shuttle loop me from beneath if i'm standing on the platform.

By the way beneath Zelda is only a weakness when she's in the air. Grounded she has dtilt with it's insane priority and spiking ability. Not saying this makes her safe against something like MK's uair, but she fares about as well as most characters not named Snake when dealing with an opponent under her when she's grounded.

Edit: Kataefi at least gets it

Man you're tripping if you think dtilt going to do something when you're attacked through the stage. Also I think we can go to the next character since we pretty set on stages.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I see your point kay... I was just weighing up options. I'd probably go to my most comfortable stage, that being frigate. But I know that's insta-death right there >___>

What about sheik? I've heard flat stages are good... I'm thinking smashville right now to compliment the duo... Sheik can definitely go this matchup alone, but in case she'd ever need to, Zelda isn't deadweight on this stage either...

Man you're tripping if you think dtilt going to do something when you're attacked through the stage. Also I think we can go to the next character since we pretty set on stages.

I liked the pun

 

[Ochobobo]

Does anyone have that stage list with the ceiling and blastzone heights?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156908

The list should probably be included in the first post, if we have room.

Also, I love the name of this thread if I haven't said so already lol.

The Mage's Stages. Excellent.

 

[-Mars-]

Here's the thing.

He doesn't have to use all five of his jumps at once, lol. He can just go back to the ledge. Also, with five jumps, he can easily just jump to the stage, and then you're still above him on the top platform, which is a bad thing.

Point: Halberd allows MK to stay beneath you for nearly the entire match. That's a bad thing. You won't be killing him early if you can't touch him, because he's completely safe the entire time he's doing this. His uair has more range and disjointedness than anything we can hit him with while he's below us.

@Mars: Sword from below > dtilt, lol. Don't be silly, now.

But whatevs, if you guys want to take MKs to Halberd, have fun with that. Like I said, it's one of his best stages for a reason, but if you wanna take the best character in the game -- and one of our worst matchups -- to one of his favorite boards.... well. There you go.

If he goes back to the ledge good for him what do I care?

I didn't say dtilt would beat any of MK's moves. I was just pointing out the fact that you said Zelda has a weakness from below and that only pertains to when she is in the air, when she's grounded she has about the same options as any other character that's grounded.

As for Sheik, I take MK to Halberd as well. Killing at 80% with grab release to DACUS is way too good. Unlike Zelda.......Sheik has NO problems dealing with MK's shenanigans under the stage. Halberd is one of Sheiks best stages. I beat the top MK player in my state last weekend on this stage.

Edit: Sheik can also wall cling very low on the sides to help out her recovery.

 

[KayLo!]

If he goes back to the ledge good for him what do I care?

If he has the lead, you better care.

If he doesn't, there's still the fact that he can attack you safely with little commitment. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to comprehend. He can come up through the stage and keep uairing even if you're on the top platform. Puffball has five jumps, and he can land on the main stage to refresh them.

I didn't say dtilt would beat any of MK's moves. I was just pointing out the fact that you said Zelda has a weakness from below and that only pertains to when she is in the air, when she's grounded she has about the same options as any other character that's grounded.

Um, okay. Who cares if she has the same number of options compared to other characters? That number still amounts to zero, lol.

As for Sheik, I take MK to Halberd as well. Killing at 80% with grab release to DACUS is way too good. Unlike Zelda.......Sheik has NO problems dealing with MK's shenanigans under the stage. Halberd is one of Sheiks best stages. I beat the top MK player in my state last weekend on this stage.

As far as I know, this is about Zelda. But whatever.

 

[-Mars-]

What about sheik? I've heard flat stages are good... I'm thinking smashville right now to compliment the duo... Sheik can definitely go this matchup alone, but in case she'd ever need to, Zelda isn't deadweight on this stage either...



I liked the pun

Sorry Kataefi I am not allowed to discuss Sheik Kaylo has informed me that this is Zelda only.

 

[KayLo!]

**** straight. You're in my house now.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If he goes back to the ledge good for him what do I care?

MK sharks with Uair, Zelda can't do anything to stop it. MK goes back to the ledge or lands on stage, gets all his jumps back and starts sharking again. Rince and repeat. Eventually Zelda will get hit and takes damage. When the stage reaches Halberd MK will just run away and avoid any unnecessary risks until the stage starts moving and he starts sharking again.

That's how I see the fight going.

I was just pointing out the fact that you said Zelda has a weakness from below and that only pertains to when she is in the air, when she's grounded she has about the same options as any other character that's grounded.

I agree on this one. The problem is that those options are not good enough to stop MK from sharking and Zelda doesn't have the necessary tools to stop it any other way either.

 

[-Mars-]

MK sharks with Uair, Zelda can't do anything to stop it. MK goes back to the ledge or lands on stage, gets all his jumps back and starts sharking again. Rince and repeat. Eventually Zelda will get hit and takes damage. When the stage reaches Halberd MK will just run away and avoid any unnecessary risks until the stage starts moving and he starts sharking again.

That's how I see the fight going.



I agree on this one. The problem is that those options are not good enough to stop MK from sharking and Zelda doesn't have the necessary tools to stop it any other way either.

Dins and teleport cancelling. Both of these are tools that she has in this matchup against something like that. I've spiked Pits, ROB's, Kirby's, and MK's that try to feint and quickly get back to the ledge with teleport cancelling. Once again......MK does not have fast horizontal aerial movement speed. Farores is quicker than MK floating around.

 

[KayLo!]

LOL.

On that note, I say we move on to the next character. Everyone but Mars pretty much agrees, and unless people really think Yoshi's should be a best or worst stage, I think we're done.

....Please, zeldspazz, I beg you. x.o