This is how liberty dies!

[saviorslegacy]

Just like how the government FORCES me to pay for infrastructure, even when I don't use it.

That is a tax and NOT a service. There is a difference.

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.

 

[gm jack]

That was my comparison. If you dont own a car, you dont pay for car insurance. The bill is FORCING us to pay for health insurance, even if we dont use it

So, you aren't forced to pay for the police, armed forces, fire department, upkeep of roads, public schools etc? Oh wait...

 

[Mewter]

Don't forget public libraries.

 

[§witch]

Saviors, I know that your extra chromosome is an extremely large obstacle that you have to get over before partaking in an intelligent debate, but please, try to listen and take in what others are saying.

Just saying "y'all pussyass liberal gay-lurvers wanna support abortion and AIDS, eh COMRAD." Isn't a good argument, nor does it prove a point or make you look like anything other than Yosemite Sam.

YE DOGGONE VARMINT LIBERAL ****** LURVERS

 

[saviorslegacy]

Saviors, I know that your extra chromosome is an extremely large obstacle that you have to get over before partaking in an intelligent debate, but please, try to listen and take in what others are saying.

Just saying "y'all pussyass liberal gay-lurvers wanna support abortion and AIDS, eh COMRAD." Isn't a good argument, nor does it prove a point or make you look like anything other than Yosemite Sam.

YE DOGGONE VARMINT LIBERAL ****** LURVERS

I have not cussed in this thread once except for using sh*t as an example. If I have at any other point then it was an accident.
I have kept my cool through the whole thing.
I said the abortion thing at first based off of false articles that I read. Now if I went and made the thing up then you could ridicule me, but I didn't. I read it from not one, but multiple sources. Throughout the past week, that and there has been a bunch of other people talking about it. I had no reason to doubt it wasn't true, did I?
I even admitted that I was wrong earlier today.
In other words, your post was a failure.

I also have not made any mention towards liberals in this thread. That was from you or some other member said it and you thought it was me.

ps Sam is duel wielding Desert Eagles. Why the heck is an old cartoon using newer guns!?
That makes absolutely no sense to me. That and Sam is American, the Desert Eagle is Israeli. He originally used colts (American).
BTW, Sam is like my cartoon hero so thank you referencing to me as him. I know it was meant negatively, but it almost feels like an accomplishment. xD

 

[PassWurD]

Wanting front row tickets for the next comedy stand up about this.

 

[Aesir]

That is a tax and NOT a service. There is a difference.

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.

See there is a problem.

You're being forced to buy into the system. However what's making you use the benefits of the system? You could easily just not use your insurance. It would be dumb not to but I imagine if you didn't want to use it you could just not use it.

I'm not quite getting it here.

Furthermore the Government has made us purchases services before so I'm again not quite getting the "unconstitutional" thing either.

 

[saviorslegacy]

See there is a problem.

You're being forced to buy into the system. However what's making you use the benefits of the system? You could easily just not use your insurance. It would be dumb not to but I imagine if you didn't want to use it you could just not use it.

I'm not quite getting it here.

Furthermore the Government has made us purchases services before so I'm again not quite getting the "unconstitutional" thing either.

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.


I'll leave the rest of the argument up to the 13 states that have taken this bill to court because they believe this is socialist.

 

[ADHD]

Omni, you don't know me very well do you. I'm a big cyber cusser. Just ask RDK ;D I wonder if ADHD still has that as his sig



The idea that it will be lower quality care comes from the idea that more people are using it, which I find horribly silly. With less patience going to the emergency room because they are unemployed, it will provide higher quality, more efficient care.

Yes, I do.. and I love you. I do not namesearch, I am just psychic.

 

[PEEF!]

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.


I'll leave the rest of the argument up to the 13 states that have taken this bill to court because they believe this is socialist.

The word socialist means something to you but your idiot self can't even define it. Socialist is a scare word used by you and fox news. The attempts to "ban the bill" are completely political and will be beaten down in a hot minute. This is all no more socialist than medicare, actually it is FAR less socialist than Medicare. If you want to be a cool guy try to get people to ban that. They won't because seniors with their socialized medicine are the happiest of all Americans with their healthcare. End of liberty? LOL.

 

[Melomaniacal]

That is a tax and NOT a service. There is a difference.

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.

I'm confused... are you saying - using your example - that it would be okay, constitutional, and not socialistic, if the government forced us to pay for a meal... but if they also forced us to eat it, it becomes wrong, unconstitutional, and socialistic?

 

[Aesir]

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.


I'll leave the rest of the argument up to the 13 states that have taken this bill to court because they believe this is socialist.

You just repeated your argument instead of addressing mine. Great debating bro.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

That is a tax and NOT a service. There is a difference.

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

What if the food tastes nasty?
See, there is a difference.

In that case, healthcare is a tax.

You're not forced to use the healthcare system, you pay for it. Going off your example, this is a tax.

Unless I'm interpreting this wrong.

Also I have the same question as Melo.

 

[Turazrok]

The one thing that annoys me about people talking about this subject is that I doubt anyone has read all 2000+ pages of it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

The one thing that annoys me about people talking about this subject is that I doubt anyone has read all 2000+ pages of it.

You would be correct.

But I have read the sections regarding abortion, mainly because there's so much argument about it, and there is a truth, so I want to know it. I don't trust Fox news, and I don't trust MSNBC, so I'm not going to accept it when Fox says "IT'S FUNDING ABORTION," and I'm not going to automatically believe it when MSNBC says "NO IT'S NOT."

 

[saviorslegacy]

So far you all have spent a page trying to change my personal opinion from thinking that this health care plan is socialist to that it is okay and I should accept it. I am entitled to my opinion.

Argue as to whether this is fair for all of us to pay for this reform.

 

[Aesir]

You can think it's bad, go right ahead, we can have a nice debate on it's effects. The problem is you keep calling it socialist which it is not. You can't just say "well that's my opinion." because if we're gonna play like that I can say this bill is capitalist because that's just my opinion.

I will admit Congress is treading into uncharted territory right now, the laws is mostly on their side because they do have the power to impose mandates and the such. IE through the Tax and spend clause and the commerce clause.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I don't think you should accept it, what we're saying is what you're saying is wrong, sorry bro, try again.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

So far you all have spent a page trying to change my personal opinion from thinking that this health care plan is socialist to that it is okay and I should accept it. I am entitled to my opinion.

Argue as to whether this is fair for all of us to pay for this reform.

Umm no?

Think whatever you want. People here are trying to tell you not to make up bull****, not change what you think.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Umm no?

Think whatever you want. People here are trying to tell you not to make up bull****, not change what you think.

When did I make up stuff?
Type in anything I have said on google and you will read about it not from me.

Personally, I think everyone is being foolish. This reform is like the vampires of old. A vampire cannot simply go into your house, you must invite him. Well, that is what has happened here. This seems nice and innocent so you invite it, little do you know it is going to bite you in the butt later on.


ps Everyone needs to get back on course. When I say that I mean, try debating, not attacking. In other words, straighten up.

Anyways:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/health_care_reform_unconstitutional/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/19/AR2010031901470.html
http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2010/03/is-health-care-reform-unconsti.html
http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionl...-general-challenge-healthcare-reform-law.html

 

[Jim Morrison]

What's wrong with a socialist plan?

 

[saviorslegacy]

What's wrong with a socialist plan?

It is un-American.
So here are some of my questions:

1. What big government entitlement program has ever:

• Reduced the deficit?
• Only cost what it says it will and lowered the costs of goods and services?
• Improved quality?
• Enhanced efficiency?
• Decreased delays?
• Fostered more choice and competition?
• Featured competent bureaucracy?
• Operated with honest accounting?
• Avoided fraud, abuse, waste, maddening red tape, and higher taxes?

Why should we trust that Health Care will do all that? Health Care deceptive budget cooking was described in one instance by Senate Budget Committee chairman Kent Conrad (D-ND) as "a Ponzi scheme of the first order, the kind of thing that Bernie Madoff would have been proud of."

2. Why does Health Care exempt some in Congress and the White House from having to buy the same health care plans that the law forces other Americans to purchase: President Obama, Vice President Biden, Cabinet members, top White House staff, congressional committee staff and leadership staff, such as those who work for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.)?

Republican Senators Chuck Grassley (Iowa) and Tom Coburn (Oklahoma) tried to close this loophole, but Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) wouldn’t even let it come up for a vote. As Grassley says, “It’s only fair and logical that top administration officials, who fought so hard for passage of this overhaul of America’s health care system, experience it themselves. If it’s as good as promised, they’ll know it first-hand. If there are problems, they’ll be able to really understand them, as they should.”

3. How will we deal with a doctor shortage caused by Health Care, particularly when doctors are being asked to treat 32 million more Americans now insured by the new law?

The Medicus Firm a medical recruitment company, found in a survey that 46 percent of physicians said they’d quit or retire if Health Care became law. According to the survey, "even if a much smaller percentage such as ten, 15, or 20 percent are pushed out of practice over several years at a time when the field needs to expand by over 20 percent, this would be severely detrimental to the quality of the health care system."

4. How will patients—particularly senior citizens—feel when their doctors and even hospitals tell them, “Sorry, but we’re only taking on non-Medicare patients who pay privately, in full”?

The New York Times (which championed Health Care) wrote last year that “Some doctors—often internists but also gastroenterologists, gynecologists, psychiatrists and other specialists—are no longer accepting Medicare, either because they have opted out of the insurance system or they are not accepting new patients with Medicare coverage. The doctors’ reasons: reimbursement rates are too low and paperwork too much of a hassle.” Under Health Care, physicians’ Medicare fees are supposed to be cut 21 percent and hospital reimbursements for Medicare patients chopped by $1.3-billion. How long can doctors and hospitals sustain those losses before they’re forced to pull the plug on treating Medicare patients (although some exceptions may be made in dire emergencies)? Count on Congress to use budget tricks like temporary “fixes” to defer those cuts until at least after the November elections.

5. How can President Obama claim that insurance premiums will go down when the very same nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office he quotes, selectively, has said that Health Care will cause the average family’s premiums to go up by as much as 13 percent by 2016?

6. Remember the “jobs saved or created” canard regarding Obama’s economic stimulus?

The president is repeating that fantasy by applying it to Health Care. However, the nonpartisan Lewin Group estimates that as many as 600,000 people will lose their jobs due to the onerous new employer health care mandates in Health Care.

7. Do you realize that Health Care turns Medicare into what should really be called "Medi-pare"?

Health Care slices $528-billion from Medicare, including $136-billion carved out of Medicare Advantage. As The Washington Examiner’s Susan Ferrechio has reported, “The Medicare Advantage cuts will force 4.8 million seniors off the popular plan by 2019. An additional $23 billion in cuts to Medicare will come from a panel charged with slashing Medicare spending.”

Those are just some of the gut-wrenching questions about Health Care that cry out for answers. But as the expression goes, “It’s what you don’t know that really hurts you.” Health Care is so full of dubious assumptions that in future years we may rename it Obama’s box, as in Pandora’s box.

Communications consultant Jon Kraushar is at index.

 

[GreenKirby]

It is un-American.

Then roads are unAmerican (owned by government)
Then the military is unAmerican (owned by government)
Then public schooling is unAmerican

It's quite obvious that some people don't know the concept of what is American and what is unAmerican. XD

BTW, no one's gonna take you seriously if you keep calling healthcare. Obamacare.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Then roads are unAmerican (owned by government)
Then the military is unAmerican (owned by government)
Then public schooling is unAmerican

It's quite obvious that some people don't know the concept of what is American and what is unAmerican. XD

BTW, no one's gonna take you seriously if you keep calling healthcare. Obamacare.

There, hopefully I have met your criteria now.
So counter it already, I am waiting.

 

[§witch]

People like you are why everyone else in the world thinks Americans and rude and don't know anything outside of their own little worlds.

 

[saviorslegacy]

People like you are why everyone else in the world thinks Americans and rude and don't know anything outside of their own little worlds.

Stop it with the personal insults and counter what I have said.

ps One of my best friends is from Austria. I also have friends from Australia, Brazil, England, Puerto Rico, Russia, Korea and 3 friends in Germany. I know several families who get foreign exchange students. The Puerto Rican taught me some Spanish. Everyone else tried teaching me, but I failed at their language. -_- I got along with almost all of them and keep in touch with a few.
You must feel like an idiot right now. xD

pss The reason why I know so many is because the foreign exchange students have little meetings and then they will usually hang out with the other exchange students. Since my friends had exchange students I was almost always there.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

When did I make up stuff?
Type in anything I have said on google and you will read about it not from me.

Yes, and everything on the internet is obviously correct.

Just because someone else said it doesn't make it true. You might not have been the one who actually made it up, but you're still using false information to support your points.

 

[Pink Reaper]

As true as that is Vrael until you provide actual proof of anything he posted being wrong it just looks like an attack on him.

 

[_Keno_]

You must feel like an idiot right now. xD.

I doubt he does. I still agree with him even after reading your post.

Pink, I'm pretty sure its up to savior to provide evidence, not for Vrael to provide counter-evidence (unless SL does provide evidence). It should be scoffed at until he has a legitimate source.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

As true as that is Vrael until you provide actual proof of anything he posted being wrong it just looks like an attack on him.

K I got this:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

proof for abortion:
Subtitle F, section 156-157
It also states at Section 124 4, B:
"ABORTIONS FOR WHICH PUBLIC FUNDING IS ALLOWED- The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is permitted, based on the law as in effect as of the date that is 6 months before the beginning of the plan year involved."

So basically he took this to mean that all abortions are always allowed whenever, and neglected to read the rest of the sections regarding abortions, which Melomaniacal posted right after that:

"ABORTIONS FOR WHICH PUBLIC FUNDING IS PROHIBITED.—The services described in
this subparagraph are abortions for which the
expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for
the Department of Health and Human Services
is not permitted, based on the law as in effect
as of the date that is 6 months before the
beginning of the plan year involved."

Some more quotes for you:

"5 (a) NO PREEMPTION OF STATE LAWS REGARDING
6 ABORTION.—Nothing in this Act shall be construed to
7 preempt or otherwise have any effect on State laws regard8
ing the prohibition of (or requirement of) coverage, fund9
ing, or procedural requirements on abortions, including
10 parental notification or consent for the performance of an
11 abortion on a minor.
12 (b) NO EFFECT ON FEDERAL LAWS REGARDING
13 ABORTION.—
14 (1) IN GENERAL.—Nothing in this Act shall be
15 construed to have any effect on Federal laws regard16
ing—
17 (A) conscience protection;
18 (B) willingness or refusal to provide abor19
tion; and
20 (C) discrimination on the basis of the will21
ingness or refusal to provide, pay for, cover, or
22 refer for abortion or to provide or participate in
23 training to provide abortion."

Pay close attention to where it says it will have no effect on the current laws.

So yeah. I guess the part he quoted wasn't wrong, but the conclusions he made based off of the small section that he read certainly were.

 

[Pink Reaper]

he's also willingly admitted that he was wrong on that though.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

he's also willingly admitted that he was wrong on that though.

Sorry, didn't know that. I could go find some other stuff, but most of his points are just opinions and he hasn't answered a lot of people's questions, especially regarding whether or not the Police or Fire Departments are socialist and therefore unconstitutional. So yeah. It'd be cool if he answered that, like 4 people have asked him.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I know, I was one of the people who pointed that out. Im just saying he seems to thrive off posts like yours by using them as a way to roundabout actually answering anything.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Can you find automobile ownership in the constitution? You aren't forced to own a car...

Quoted for truth.

The Man has monopolies on countless things. You do this, you have to do that. I saw a high schooler riding his bike in the cold. Doesn't matter why he was doing it but it didn't seem like he was in shape. You don't need a car, and yes it makes EVERYTHING easier for your chubby self (not a direct insult), but you cannot always take the easy way around. And for some, getting a car is the WORSE idea.
Now, I stopped looking at politics since the election. Does anyone know if the Democratic Party has done their "Robin Hood" campaign?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I know, I was one of the people who pointed that out. Im just saying he seems to thrive off posts like yours by using them as a way to roundabout actually answering anything.

Yeah, I gotcha.

That's alright though, him not answering anything is pretty much just an admission that he's wrong.

 

[demonictoonlink]

OPs right guys.

Moderate health care reform>Communist American true combo.
Obv.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I doubt he does. I still agree with him even after reading your post.

Pink, I'm pretty sure its up to savior to provide evidence, not for Vrael to provide counter-evidence (unless SL does provide evidence). It should be scoffed at until he has a legitimate source.

Evidence for what pre-tail?

Yeah, I gotcha.

That's alright though, him not answering anything is pretty much just an admission that he's wrong.

What do you mean not answering?
I have 7 points out there that proves this health care reform is bad and no one will debate over those. You guys are stuck on two things:
#1 Abortions
Something I have already admitted to being wrong over. I figured out why I found so much wrong information, it was old information before they changed it.
I was unaware it was changed until someone mentioned that. Then it was an, "oooooooh" moment.

#2 That I have called it socialist. I whole heartily believe it is socialist, so do 13 states. Even if you say other things are socialist it does not change that this is socialist.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I thought you said that it being socialistic was an opinion?

 

[Maniclysane]

I thought you said that it being socialistic was an opinion?

He doesn't know opinion from fact. I think it is capitalist. So do 37 other states.

Hannah Montana has 5+ million fans. She is obviously the best music artist.

 

[CRASHiC]

I am going to use a restruant for this example..
tax= forcing you to pay for the food
service= forcing you to pay for the food AND eating it

But they aren't making you eat the food, just pay for it. No one is making you go to the doctor, there is no requirement to go to a doctor so many times a year, you are simply paying for insurance, like it was a tax. You aren't forced to use the insurance, but you are paying for it none the less.

Now, let's assume it WAS a TRUE tax, what then? Would you not be downing this as a "single payer" system?

What sort of fix do you purpose? how would you insure those who truly need it, without having a mandate, because without the mandate, there would be no way to decrease insurance cost while at the same time making sure that high cost patients are insured.