This is how liberty dies!

[CRASHiC]

Ya know, saying "I've seen the people in my area who are on welfare and they are just lazy" isn't a fact, its an observational opinon, and one that makes the horrible assumption that you know everything relating to their situation.

Also, if you are so poor, why are you on the internet?

Also, for your information, I help support my family during this hard time, and have sacrificed the love of my life and potentially my musical future to do so. Again, you are making assumptions upon people that should not be made.

 

[Mewter]

Guys, just reply specifically to his 7 points.
You're making yourselves look bad.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I understand you savior. But the question remains, how would the government separate those like your father from those who are just lazy? Where's the cutoff point?

You can't, doesn't mean that it isn't a negative.

See, what you are forgetting here is that this isn't the creation of a new program, but the revision of one. Also, this is a horribly silly question. "When has spending money ever stopped us from spending money?"



Nearly all of them. You don't see the police going, "Okay, we saved your wife, that will be 200 dollars please"



energy
transportation
anything that has inelastic demand and does not run off of profit. Did you ever take an economics class? Mine covered this quite throughly, as to what kinds of economic circumstances government and non-profit does better than profit.



Again, I've already explained this through the law of inelastic demand.



The LA transportation saves the average driver during the day, to and from work, an average of 3 hours driving time.



Not always a good thing in economics, as already explained by inelastic demand. And so I see you never took an economic class.



Actually, most of them do, especially compared to private companies. My family has run Waffle House since it first opened, and I can't tell you all the kind of crazy paper work **** we do, and it runs down right into the very base, we teach servers ways to exploit the computers to make our paperwork look better, for instance, we only count each customer that has a drink other than water, thus making our drink percentage look higher, thus making our profit margins look higher. This is just one tiny example of how we are preparing for a giant sell out. Honestly, what you are saying applies far more to private companies than to non-profit and government based, why? Because there is an incentive too in private companies, as they stand to make a profit. The executives of non-profit make a set salary and nothing more.

As for the other points, you have NO IDEA how completely invalid those are. Wherever you copy pasted those from, STOP GOING. I can ASSURE YOU, that ALL of those are horribly, horribly wrong. For instance, Medical Review found that 60 percent of doctors FAVORED the health care reform plan, back when it covered 100 percent of Americans, and not the new lower percent. All of that info you provided in those 7 points are horribly biased and manipulated information and quotes. No one is going to turn away Medicade patients when they get a PAYED INCENTIVE TO TREAT. THEY GET PAYED FROM THE GOVERNMENT TO TREAT EACH ONE OF THEM.

Dude, most of those things that you supposedly answered are irrelevant.
Those are promises that this Health Care Reform has made, more or less, Obama has promised that this health care reform will do these things.

*Proof on everything else

And yes, I have had Financial Peace (counts for high school) and Economics class.

 

[CRASHiC]

then maybe you should take it again. If you honestly think that free market values apply to health care.

And no, nothing I posted was irrelevant, you just really need to go back to economics.

 

[GreenKirby]

Guys, just reply specifically to his 7 points.
You're making yourselves look bad.

We've been doing that since the topic started and he just chooses to ignore them.

Besides, he never explained how it would decrease quality and efficiency etc.

 

[Skrlx]

tl;dr

If this thread was acted out in a tournament, i'd lol

P.S. I agree with CRASHiC

P.S.S. The OP is dumb

 

[Pink Reaper]

I LOVE how this guy literally cried when someone called his unemployed father lazy, but then turns around and calls someone else unemployed parent lazy XD

It's called being a hypocrite. Welcome to politics.

 

[Mewter]

As I said, I have no reason to not believe that the same thing that is happening here is happening somewhere else.

You don't have a reason to believe it is happening everywhere else either.

 

[§witch]

It's called being a hypocrite. Welcome to politics.

Something being prevalent does not make it excusable.

 

[john!]

tl;dr

If this thread was acted out in a tournament, i'd lol

P.S. I agree with CRASHiC

P.S.S. The OP is dumb

oh my god

if the winner of a debate was decided with melee

that's how real men do things

 

[CRASHiC]

Nah, real men do it Guilty Gear style, even if I use May.

 

[Melomaniacal]

...**** it.

 

[Queen]

Sometimes...I begin to believe that Ayn Rand had a point in "Atlas Shrugged."

And so I ask you, "Who is John Galt?"

 

[§witch]

Sometimes...I begin to believe that Ayn Rand had a point in "Atlas Shrugged."

And so I ask you, "Who is John Galt?"

No **** it had a point.

 

[SPAWN]

Ayn Rand is a horrible writer, I love to read but reading her books was like driving a screw driver into my brain.

I love how crashic is the only one taking this seriously and savior just ignores his points. Pretty typical in these type of debates.

-Aesir

 

[Queen]

I agree. It was like reading a brick. A fantastically didactic and engaging brick, but a brick nonetheless.

At any rate, I actually find Rand's books to be worth reading, even if there are some glaring flaws (i.e. Utopia by way of sameness).

I appreciate that Crashic takes the topic seriously, I sincerely do. I have never been able to maintain the slightest wall against stupidity.

Wouldn't it be interesting if we had the choice of citizenship versus non-citizenship? That way people could choose to opt out of those things they truly disagree with and take it upon themselves to live as they believe they ought to. Ah...personal responsibility tastes good.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Wouldn't it be interesting if we had the choice of citizenship versus non-citizenship? That way people could choose to opt out of those things they truly disagree with and take it upon themselves to live as they believe they ought to. Ah...personal responsibility tastes good.

Well, you can renounce your citizenship, but I'm not sure if it works the same way as you have it in your mind.

 

[kataklysm336]

"Socialism is not a Republic. America was set up to be a Republic. Thus it is un-American."

I'm impressed that you know America is a Republic.
I'm disappointed that you think Socialism is a form of government.

Capitalism is also not a republic. So by you're standards what have right now is un-American.

 

[§witch]

I agree. It was like reading a brick. A fantastically didactic and engaging brick, but a brick nonetheless.

At any rate, I actually find Rand's books to be worth reading, even if there are some glaring flaws (i.e. Utopia by way of sameness).

I agree completely. Her writing is even dryer than Russian Literature.

 

[Sucumbio]

>.>

v.v

I was un-employed from october until march ... my wife made too much for us to qualify for any welfare programs, including food stamps, but her wages are so low that we were just above the poverty line.

had we qualified for food stamps, unemployment compensation, anything, we'd have taken it, absolutely. not taking it meant we had no choice but to burden my in-laws, and live off rice noodles and hope. thankfully I got a job paying a WHOLE dollar above minimum wage so added to my wife's wages we now have enough to still live with my in-laws but now we can subsist on hot dogs and prayer. yay.

I know where you're coming from. I often had to listen to my father rant about welfare blacks from roxbury and dorchester living of "his" tax money that he bled for daily as a "hard-working" carpenter. The sad fact is, some folks truly believe their tax dollars should only go towards certain things, and that those things should not be simple hand-outs, but things like... roads, schools, military protection, the mail, lol ya know, government stuff.

But ya know what? When I hit my rocky road a few months back, and called my folks for help, their retired broke selves said "sorry, why don't you try a welfare program? ain't got no food stamps in mississippi?????" HA! I guess now that you're old and dying and near starving cause you can't afford MEDICINE you're also able to jump down off your high horses and realize that SOME PEOPLE NEED WELFARE.

(and they are not lazy)

 

[Queen]

Well, you can renounce your citizenship, but I'm not sure if it works the same way as you have it in your mind.

In that respect, you are quite right, of course. I have, at best, a skeletal understanding of these things. It would merely be a hope. Unfortunately, hope is a terrible guide but wonderful companion.

 

[saviorslegacy]

>.>

v.v

I was un-employed from october until march ... my wife made too much for us to qualify for any welfare programs, including food stamps, but her wages are so low that we were just above the poverty line.

had we qualified for food stamps, unemployment compensation, anything, we'd have taken it, absolutely. not taking it meant we had no choice but to burden my in-laws, and live off rice noodles and hope. thankfully I got a job paying a WHOLE dollar above minimum wage so added to my wife's wages we now have enough to still live with my in-laws but now we can subsist on hot dogs and prayer. yay.

I know where you're coming from. I often had to listen to my father rant about welfare blacks from roxbury and dorchester living of "his" tax money that he bled for daily as a "hard-working" carpenter. The sad fact is, some folks truly believe their tax dollars should only go towards certain things, and that those things should not be simple hand-outs, but things like... roads, schools, military protection, the mail, lol ya know, government stuff.

But ya know what? When I hit my rocky road a few months back, and called my folks for help, their retired broke selves said "sorry, why don't you try a welfare program? ain't got no food stamps in mississippi?????" HA! I guess now that you're old and dying and near starving cause you can't afford MEDICINE you're also able to jump down off your high horses and realize that SOME PEOPLE NEED WELFARE.

(and they are not lazy)

Some people need it, but from what I've seen, most don't.

BTW, me and some friends were sitting in a hot tub talking about welfare. The dude fromAusria said that it us horrible over there and Columbus Ohio has a lot of blacks (not meant to be racist) on it.
But yeah, the need is always there, it is just identifying lazyness over they really can't work/find a job.

 

[Sucumbio]

true, that's a problem that will never go away.. for every person you have who really needs it you'll find one or more are just there to take advantage of the system. it also depends on the system how well one may take advantage of it...

food stamps for example goes off of total household income.
unemployment compensation goes off of the reason you lost your job, and you have to keep re-qualifying by proving you're looking for work.
long-term disability requires a dr's approval.

now on the surface these seem relatively fool proof, but only if you're an honest person.

For food stamps, one need only lie about their total household income. Sure the state department will check your w-2 if you're audited during tax season for the -previous- year, but they can't check your current wages because that's not reported until the w-2 for the current year is printed at the end of the year. so basically you get away with it.

You can lie about why you left your job, and you may or may not get away with it, but even more effective is to simply ask your boss to say he laid you off even if technically you quit maybe due to personal reasons, if you're in good with your boss still they may do that for you.

Getting a dr's to write you up as long-term disabled is a lot easier than you'd think, if your dr is like that (and many are).

So yes, there are loopholes and whatnot, the system isn't by any means perfect, and it's hard not to notice trends in poor areas where people tend to take advantage more than not.

 

[Omnicron's Baklava Enterprises]

Why argue if something is "unAmerican" or not?

It's like you're (saviorslegacy) making Amhurrican sound like it's important or something.

 

[mzink*]

>.>

v.v

I was un-employed from october until march ... my wife made too much for us to qualify for any welfare programs, including food stamps, but her wages are so low that we were just above the poverty line.

had we qualified for food stamps, unemployment compensation, anything, we'd have taken it, absolutely. not taking it meant we had no choice but to burden my in-laws, and live off rice noodles and hope. thankfully I got a job paying a WHOLE dollar above minimum wage so added to my wife's wages we now have enough to still live with my in-laws but now we can subsist on hot dogs and prayer. yay.

I know where you're coming from. I often had to listen to my father rant about welfare blacks from roxbury and dorchester living of "his" tax money that he bled for daily as a "hard-working" carpenter. The sad fact is, some folks truly believe their tax dollars should only go towards certain things, and that those things should not be simple hand-outs, but things like... roads, schools, military protection, the mail, lol ya know, government stuff.

But ya know what? When I hit my rocky road a few months back, and called my folks for help, their retired broke selves said "sorry, why don't you try a welfare program? ain't got no food stamps in mississippi?????" HA! I guess now that you're old and dying and near starving cause you can't afford MEDICINE you're also able to jump down off your high horses and realize that SOME PEOPLE NEED WELFARE.

(and they are not lazy)

I know quite a few people who have been stuck in this position, its not laziness at all, its a constant struggle. And if you don't have someone to fall back on till you regain your feet...
Not everybody has the backup support system of family during rough times.

 

[john!]

Why argue if something is "unAmerican" or not?

It's like you're (saviorslegacy) making Amhurrican sound like it's important or something.

Generally some of us find it important to stick to the principles that brought America to the top of the world. That's why being American tends to be a good thing. A lot of what goes on in our government today is arguably un-American.

 

[saviorslegacy]

than I raged with laughter

edit XD, wtf guys, you don't realize he's trolling?

Jam Stunna wins for JV5ing Savior's argument.

Savior loses for being a fail debater.

He wins, however, for being a smart troll.

On point: As much as I approve of the idea of healthcare for all Americans, I do think the implementation wasn't that great.

Guys HE IS TROLLING YOU

He is NOT serious. He is trying to make your guys' heads explode with rage because of how funny it is to him. Apparently working.

>.>

Savior is a troll? I thought he was a writer.

The man whom I got these posts from was a PM after the second day of this post. He asked me not to post the PM as proof because it might get him in trouble, so I simply changed the name.

freakin buzz kill -_-

*removed*

I think the mods were enjoying it.

DO not put this on the thread. k?
The best way to be a troll is to do exactly what that one dude said, argue over something believable. Then let other step in and argue for you.

If you post that you will kill it. That and I will get an infraction for openly admitting trolling.

I won't, I think it's pretty funny too actually. It's pretty weird how hard it is to tell the difference between satire and the real thing in this day and age.

Dude, I am like the most successful troll ever. I have 10 pages of arguing! xD
I want an infraction called *successful troll is successful*.

When should I break it to them that I have been trolling/should I?

See if you can draw it out another couple pages, imo. Good work.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!
I do have to admit, at parts my temper got the better of me and I kinda messed it up some, but all and all....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gk0L83boTw
"Until next time my freaky darlings."
*Skinner from Extraordinary League of Gentleman

 

[Falconv1.0]

User blogs is all but completely dead to me right now.

I need to be alone so I can go weep now.

 

[saviorslegacy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTR5EVI1TK8

 

[Sucumbio]

wut.

HA!

only on SWF, man alive.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

This thread makes me sad. I considered entering the debate, but then I remembered why I've come to dislike arguing on the internet.

...Where the hell is my avatar?

Oh, okay there it is.

 

[john!]

So you were trolling through the whole thread? Shame, you made some good points near the beginning.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

lolnoobs10chars

 

[saviorslegacy]

So you were trolling through the whole thread? Shame, you made some good points near the beginning.

It was about 65% trolling 35% serious and bouncing more and less off and on.

I think that this bill costs way to much money.
It is Socialist but so are a lot of things.
Socialist= something under the Governments control just for those who wants to argue. (or something along those lines.... been a while since Government class)
I really didn't know that about the abortions, but it was funny how everyone got mad. xD
I do believe that there are people on welfare that don't need to be there, but there are a lot of people who actually need help on there too. That is why it was set up.
I am overly defensive over my father, because he is my role model.
I got the seven points from someone on another website BTW.
(and) I think that is it.

 

[pony of endless death]

A lot of people complain about welfare reform but no one has any good, legal solutions to the problem.

A lot of people hate the healthcare bill but don't know anything about it, or even about why it was passed (and no its not cause the government wants to ruin your life).

Republicans tried to stir up the abortion funding thing (which doesn't exist) cause they want to take control of the senate in coming elections by demonizing the health care bill and the democrats.

The statistics about how much money the bill is going to save don't have any origin that has been revealed to the media or anybody. As far as anyone outside white house staff know, the 1.? billion the healthcare bill is supposed to cut our deficit is completely made up.

Even though for college students, student loan forgiveness looks better than ever!!

 

[Falconv1.0]

only on SWF, man alive.

This statement heavily implies you don't go to a whole lot of other big online forums.

 

[saviorslegacy]

The only other forum that I go to is a fire arms forum. I really don't want to go anywhere else.

IMO, Politics are like professional wrestling.
In the ring they absolutely hate each others guts, but behind the curtains they are all buddies.
The Republicans are doing the same thing that the Democrats done two years ago. They were hitting on Bush and this war really hard just to get voted in. The Republicans are now hitting on this bill and if they haven't already, Obama, just to get votes.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Are you comparing the Iraq War with a health care reform bill?

>__>

 

[saviorslegacy]

Are you comparing the Iraq War with a health care reform bill?

>__>

Not at all.
They both are similar in the matter that they are ammo for political parties, but that is all.
I did right a report defending the war and I am very patriotic, but even I believe that this war needs to end!

 

[Aesir]

It should never have started to begin with.