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Natch

Smash Ace
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Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
Hey, instead of doing this difficulty in stars crap, can you just do 50:50, 65:35, 70:30, etc as everybody else does?

It's hard as balls to read it. Does 5 stars mean 50:50, 75:25, 100:0? What the hell is this system trying to tell me?

This system is really arbitrary. MK boards say it's 55:45 their advantage. 5 stars. Falco boards say it's 50:50 or 45:55 their disadvantage. 4 stars. Pikachu boards say...53:47(Weird) their advantage. 4 stars. Wario boards say it's 50:50. 3 stars. Game and Watch boards say 40:60 their disadvantage. 3 stars.

THE FLYING ****.

This system is not only incosistant, it's completly relative to Snake too. If it turns out Snake has a 70:30 matchup and you have to change an existing one, that means you need 9 stars by the scale you gave-2 stars is the difference 50:50 and 40:60. If Snake has an 80:20, you need -1 stars.

Fix it.

Also:

Add Corneria to the list of stages to ban against Pika. Really, Pikachu can camp the hell out of you there if he runs to and fro over the fin while spamming neutral B. I was ***** there by a player of about equal skill.

Thankfully, most Pikas will not be that "cheap."
 

The Milk Monster

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
2,138
Location
Collinsville, IL.
Hey, instead of doing this difficulty in stars crap, can you just do 50:50, 65:35, 70:30, etc as everybody else does?

It's hard as balls to read it. Does 5 stars mean 50:50, 75:25, 100:0? What the hell is this system trying to tell me?

For example, Falco-a matchup Snake does badly against-is 4 stars. MK-a character Snake is good/neutral against-is 5 stars. What the hell?
I agree, it'd be nice to know how much of a disadvantage or advantage Snake has.
Thanks in advance.
Also, in response to what I said earlier, we need a neat diagram!
 

PhantomX

WarioMan
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
10,683
Location
Round Rock, Texas
I'm pretty sure most people used to think Snake had advantage over Wario in the past, I'd say it's about even now. Not only can Wario do completely inexplicable **** like eat nairs (yes, I do this on occasion and it's always a surprise, lol), he's one of the few people that can kill Snake early (via cypher bites or waft). Snake gets grab releases, but Wario's air game violates you (for the most part).

Also, I'd say dair > dair > bite is anything but trivial when on many smaller stages that's enough to get you airborne... Dair > clap > whatever is also a combo on snake, that's 47% in the span of a couple seconds... when you can die from a waft at 90, that's serious business. Pick stages with platforms againt Wario, and hide under them, he'll have trouble approaching you due ot his lack of disjointedness/range.

That said I've picked up Snake recently and D3 sucks, lol (though not as bad as he does for Wario, I guess). Nading to keep him away isn't as easy as I'd like, and once I'm offstage it's laaaaame. A very well spaced Marth is also really really hard. Dtilt beats out ftilt, tippers kill you early, and he juggles you like a monster. Generally you gotta hope you can fastfall with a grenade to make you both blow up, or you ain't ever getting down, lol.
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
I'll work on an image (Dark Red, Red, Light Red, white, Light Green, Green, Dark Green, and black (not done)

Would anyone use it? That's the question xD especially since we haven't done -many- of the actual matchups.

I will also check the other boards to find their verdict and there color will have a * next to the matchup (which will be on the color in black text) to show it did not come from our boards.

Now who likes this idea?

(to get an idea of what this would look like look at this Yoshi thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199610 )
 

Natch

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
649
Location
San Diego, CA
NNID
Natch42
I'll work on an image (Dark Red, Red, Light Red, white, Light Green, Green, Dark Green, and black (not done)

Would anyone use it? That's the question xD especially since we haven't done -many- of the actual matchups.

I will also check the other boards to find their verdict and there color will have a * next to the matchup (which will be on the color in black text) to show it did not come from our boards.

Now who likes this idea?

(to get an idea of what this would look like look at this Yoshi thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199610 )
Too fancy, use something simpler that takes less time to make. The images are very complex, but do a good job. That would make for a good finishing touch though.

Think something like this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183767

or this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032
 

Oddler

Smash Journeyman
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Do your Link matchup next :p

I wanna see what the Snake board has to say about that matchup :)
 

The Milk Monster

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
2,138
Location
Collinsville, IL.
Do your Link matchup next :p

I wanna see what the Snake board has to say about that matchup :)
Well from my personal experience playing one of the best Link mains around, the match up should be 60 : 40 Link.

Link's projectiles keep him from being campy, a Zair can stop the mortar slide, Link can block his Nikita, grenades can be used against him(Link being able to catch them with the incredibly quick nair), Snake is heavy, "comboable" by Link, Link can tech chase him pretty well, that **** boomerang, anything else anyone would like to add?

On Snake's half, Link's recovery is horrible as it is, so nailing him with off stage projectiles is even better, Snake's over air could take care of Link pretty easy since Link's recovery is bad and laggy, Link's bombs can be used against him as well, Link is heavy as well, so Snake can sort of get some decent set ups on him (low percents, down tilt to an over tilt to a mortar slide, and if you charge it enough, grab them and throw them into the mortar.), Snake's down throw tech chase, Snake's tilts will knock far enough away to make Link not get back(Unless they do his bomb recovery), or up high enough for a star KO.

Personally though, I say the match up leans in Link's favor.
 

Eternal Yoshi

I've covered ban wars, you know
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I'd Say it's even.

Generally, Snake's close quarters ground attacks outrange Link's, are faster, and are more powerful. Snake's Up tilt can outrange Link's dair but it's hard to space properly i that situation. However, when one laggy aerial misses, the other can punish you greatly. If Link misses his dair, it's an almost guaranteed free dair for Snake and vice versa. This is why it's better to use less laggy aerials in this matchup. This applies to Link too.

Also, Snake's projectiles are more powerful but a bit slower. The Nikita can't be blocked if it is above Link and if Link tries to deflect it and the attack sends it upwards, Snake can drop it to blow Link up. It can even be used(with practice) on his high priority spin attack instead of Grenades. On ocassions, the Nikita can also be used to stage spike Link if he uses his Hookshot. Because of this, Link has to concentrate his projectiles on blocking Snake's projectiles rather than attacking Snake when recovering.

You have to be very smart with grenades with this matchup to avoid getting blown up. Timing the grenade drop is key if he decides to catch it with his nair. If you memorize the timing, you can fool Link by having it set so that it will blow up as soon as he catches it. However, while his arrows and Gale Boomerang don't detonate it, he can punish you if you are too obvious by deflecting it and stopping it's lateral momentum.

This matchup is all about who's smarter with their projectiles, and it can go either way.
 

Hot_ArmS

Smash Hero
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even? i dont think so......a snake will lose the first time they play a competent link but after a while they get used to fighting link and would have no more problems
 

Eternal Yoshi

I've covered ban wars, you know
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Interesting point. Links are a rare breed in regions like Atlantic North so Snakes will most likely not have any matchup experience against any Links.
 

Dart

Smash Lord
Joined
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East Peoria, IL
it seems i've yet to play a competent link yet, the ones i've played have been snake fodder pretty much :/
 

The Milk Monster

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Collinsville, IL.
I'd Say it's even.

Generally, Snake's close quarters ground attacks outrange Link's, are faster, and are more powerful. Snake's Up tilt can outrange Link's dair but it's hard to space properly i that situation. However, when one laggy aerial misses, the other can punish you greatly. If Link misses his dair, it's an almost guaranteed free dair for Snake and vice versa. This is why it's better to use less laggy aerials in this matchup. This applies to Link too.

Also, Snake's projectiles are more powerful but a bit slower. The Nikita can't be blocked if it is above Link and if Link tries to deflect it and the attack sends it upwards, Snake can drop it to blow Link up. It can even be used(with practice) on his high priority spin attack instead of Grenades. On ocassions, the Nikita can also be used to stage spike Link if he uses his Hookshot. Because of this, Link has to concentrate his projectiles on blocking Snake's projectiles rather than attacking Snake when recovering.

You have to be very smart with grenades with this matchup to avoid getting blown up. Timing the grenade drop is key if he decides to catch it with his nair. If you memorize the timing, you can fool Link by having it set so that it will blow up as soon as he catches it. However, while his arrows and Gale Boomerang don't detonate it, he can punish you if you are too obvious by deflecting it and stopping it's lateral momentum.

This matchup is all about who's smarter with their projectiles, and it can go either way.
That is true, the boomerang will send Snake's projectile's every which way. Cooking grenades is key here, like you mention. Cook it enough so that if he does catch it, it explodes, setting up for your follow up.
 

The Milk Monster

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Collinsville, IL.
even? i dont think so......a snake will lose the first time they play a competent link but after a while they get used to fighting link and would have no more problems
I wouldn't exactly say no more problems, but that match up will seem more even then a first time.
Link's are still pretty tricky in the right hands.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Try to play Legan, Deva, ArkiveZero, Izaw, etc.
They'll tear you up.
Legan is crazy good, no doubt about that. I'm looking forward to playing him again someday. But when I played him... I two-stocked him. I honestly think that's because of the matchup, really. Snake wins, 60-40 at least.
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Baton Rouge
VS Link?

Even though Snake is heavy, he can SDI most of the multi-hit smashes from Link which limits the effectiveness of Link when it comes to killing. Really, the main thing that Link has is that most of Snake's moves are easy to DI into the upper corners of the stage. Rarely should link find himself sent at an awkward down angle. Furthermore, Snake's off stage game isn't the best in the world. Most of Link's efforts with Up B will win out on what Snake has to offer. This may be one of the few match ups that Link doesn't have to worry about being gimped in. Lol.
 

LordoftheMorning

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
2,153
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Counterpick vs. Lucario?
Frigate Orpheon - Similar reasoning, as the right hand side has no edge to grab on.
Heck no. Someone needs to change this. Lucario doesn't care about the lack of edges! He wallclings out of Extreme Speed! That little spot is one of the easiest places to wallcling onto. And once Lucario has done that, he can jump off and Dair you if you're near.

The other edge also has some strange property: Lucario can wallcling onto it when someone tries to edgehog him.

Frigate is one of the most Lucario-friendly stages. I use it as my counterpick.
 

8AngeL8

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
1,298
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Dallas, TX
The link matchup is 55/45 Snake's favor. Link is one of the few who can actually outcamp Snake, so he'll be forced to approach. Snake has to be careful, though. Link's sword has some serious range on it. Fortunately, Snake also has some serious range :) This matchup is a war for spacing. If Snake can get it, he'll own Link. If he can't, Link will own him.
 

itsthebigfoot

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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ventura county CA
sorry to interrupt, but for the dk matchup, on the stages, two things look a bit off. first off, the ledges on lylat and pokemon stadium do not gimp dk. those are two VERY good dk stages, I would not cp them

second, dk's best stages are brinstar, jungle japes, and luigi's mansion, with lylat, pokemon stadium and delfino coming in right behind. snakes pretty good on brinstar, so it would be pretty even, but dk on japes will beat you a vast majority of the time, unless he screws up and runs into an fsmash or something. japes and luigis are definitely the two ban stages
 

UltimateRazer

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Houston, TX
God please yes. Hes like the new [insert kool person here] on the block. Hes been contributing to this forum much lately. Havokk for president :)
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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Messages
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planking while watching anime with Fino
Well I got a PM from abit_rusty (my Snake god, his guide for Snake is epic and totally destroyed the need for any other guide (and I can update that a little (mostly with data where its needed, such as the c4/mine KO %'s for the C4/mine stuff near the bottom, just little things).

I will be taking over this thread, updating it, getting my other matchup discussion thread closed, rewriting the STARS to PERCENTS (50:50 for example, lol) and getting the ball rolling again....

Hope to see this updated any day . :chuckle:
 

abit_rusty

Smash Lord
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East Lansing, MI
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All yours Havokk. Good luck :chuckle:

EDIT:

Everyone, start discussing ;) OP has been slightly updated.

Also please give me % ratings for each of the matchups so I can change the stars in the next update.

Havokk is getting his Matchup Chart/Discussion thread closed, so start posting in this one again seeing as its the only one.
 

Gates

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
9,316
The Snake versus Dedede matchup is 60:40 Dedede's favor. I'm really tired right now so I'll just c/p what I wrote for the Dedede matchup summary thread.

The matchup between Dedede and Snake is a very interesting one. Snake is faster than Dedede; can camp better through grenades and the Nikita (but mostly grenades); utilizes explosives to smack Dedede around all over the stage; spkies Dedede off the stage with fair, racks up lots of damage with nair and dair; edgeguards well with a combination of mortars, C4, mines, and, surprisingly, his bair; and kills Dedede at a lower percentage than other characters due to his extremely strong ftilt, utilt, uair, and fsmash. Yet at the same time, Dedede is considered by many to be Snake’s worst matchup.

Snake has more tricks up his sleeve, sure, and he’ll most likely outcamp you since his Waddle Dees can’t always hold their own against grenades. But once you grab him, you have a very significant advantage. Not only can Snake be chaingrabbed to the edge of the stage, but once you throw him off you can hit him with a dtilt and gimp him very easily. Gimping Snake is an interesting ordeal. With most characters the phrase “gimp” is synonymous with “WoP”. However, due to the nature of Snake’s cypher (better vertical recovery than your upB, which translates to horizontal recovery thanks to DI), it is better, in my opinion, to stake spike him. Snake is particularly vulnerable to stage spiking due to the fact that his upB goes straight up first and then slowly gains horizontal momentum. This means that many times, even if Snake has not been stage spiked but is still under the stage and not in range of the ledge, Snake will cypher under the stage until he lets go and falls to his death (or C4s himself, in which case he’ll be in a slightly better position to recover, but ultimately still vulnerable). The best way to stage spike Snake is The King’s bair, though his fair works well to. Inhaling Snake and spitting him out under the ledge is a fun alternative to Dededecide and works just as well as fair, but setting it up can be difficult due to Snake’s relative resistance to Inhale (his bair outranges it and he can feed you grenades instead).

Edgeguarding Snake in general is an important thing to learn since you’ll probably spend a decent portion of the match doing it. If he ciphers close enough to the stage, grab him out of it, don't attack or throw, and wait for him to release on his own. He’ll have to C4 himself, taking an extra 15% damage, and try to get back to the stage again, where you’ll be waiting with bairs, fairs, or an fsmash. I know I said stage spiking was probably a better option than WoP earlier, but on several stages that’s not an option, so if you think you can, Wall away.

Inversely, Dedede needs to be careful when recovering against Snake as well. Nair and bair go through mortars, so they aren’t a terribly big issue unless the Snake really starts spamming them, at which point you’ll have to stop using aerials and use the super armor from Super Dedede Jump. If you do use the upB, don’t be surprised if the Snake player starts smiling as this is very exploitable on the descent. Fair, dair, nair, bair, ftilt, fsmash, Nikita… these are all things he can do to you while you’re airborne. According to M2K, dair kills Dedede off the ledge at about 100%. Fair kills even lower than that. Be EXTREMELY careful when recovering against Snake.

But before all this edgeguarding business comes into play, you’ll have to face eachother on the stage first. As I mentioned earlier, Snake will probably be outcamping you with his grenades and try to force you to approach. Before that, however, toss a waddle dee at him to provide you some cover against low grenades and mines. The optimal angle of attack for approaching Snake is an interesting debate. Dashing straight on opens you up to grenades, ftilts, jabs, mortarslides, and lots of other stuff. On the other hand, approaching from the air opens you up to grenade bounces, aerials, mortars, and his insane utilt (you should see the horizontal range on it, it’s ridiculous). Ultimately you have to make the call here on what is best for you to do. If he seems to be wanting to continue to spam grenades, follow your Waddle Dees over there and RAR a bair when you’re close enough. If you start to approach and he begins a mortarslide, shieldgrab him and either chaingrab (provided the mortar isn’t heading towards you or didn’t go off for some reason) or fthrow/bthrow (the more likely choice). Of course, the BEST way to approach Snake is from below. Your utilt will probably not be what kills him in this match so feel free to set him up in the air and follow up with whatever you can throw at him. Uair, another utilt, you name it.

About Snakes explosives. Mines aren’t that big a deal since, as mentioned before, Waddle Dees can trip them easily. C4 is more dangerous and you’ll most likely be forced to avoid it. However, most Snakes will not leave their C4 in one place for too long (it explodes after 25 to 30 seconds anyway), and when you get them off the stage the first thing they do after cypher is detonate their C4 to try recovering back that way. Nikita is pretty easy to avoid if you’re not careless and not much else about it is worth mentioning. Snake’s most notable explosives are his grenades. A good Snake player can and will do tons of different things about them. Not just simple stuff like camping and bouncing, but advanced things like dropping a grenade in front of you, rolling behind you, cracking you neck a few times, and then throwing you into it as it explodes. Hell, I’m surprised nobody’s written a full guide about grenades yet. It’s also worth mentioning that many Snakes will mash B during the chaingrab since there is a very, very small window of opportunity (like 1 frame) for them to pull a grenade and stop your CG, but this is unlikely to happen and if you’re chaingrabbing properly it won’t matter much anyway.

Good Stages:
Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 1, Rainbow Cruise
Big flat stages, weird ledges, no platforms, walls, and moving stages generally aren’t that good for Snake. Pokemon Stadium in particular is great in this matchup due to its odd ledges that Snake can’t cipher around and its walls on the rock and fire portions of the stage.

Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Norfair
Stages with lots of platforms, congested stages, anywhere you can’t really get a good amount of spacing from Snake.

Another stage worth mentioning is Smashville. Though Snake players generally enjoy it for the moving platform since it’s a good place to put explosives, Dedede players also love it because of chaingrabbing tricks associates with it. Also, both Snake’s and Dedede’s utilts can reach through the platform to kill. This stage doesn’t particularly favor one character over the other, but I still felt it was worth mentioning since you may see it a lot against Snake.

I have a good deal of familiarity against Snake since my best friend from back home is a Snake main (pretty good too) and we played on a semi-daily basis over the summer, so I'll probably add more stuff another time.
 

Ken Neth

Smash Champion
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Messages
2,545
Location
BYU- Provo, Utah
Havokk for president!

I was put in charge of this awhile ago, but failed miserably LOL. College was easy at the time, but now it's kicking my butt. :( I haven't had time to do hardly anything on here for awhile now. Thanks Havokk :)
 

SuSa

Banned via Administration
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planking while watching anime with Fino
OMFG Gates O_o thanks.


Although I'll have to fix cipher to Cypher xD and a few other things... I think that literally ends our discussion about D3... it covers EVERYTHING basically.

Although I will change a few things.

1. Stage spikes don't work against people who know how to tech. >.> but I'll just mention this, rather then edit it because most people can't stage tech worth **** apparently.

2. I forgot what else, when I add it I'll change it.

3. Votes for next matchup/

4. W00t, 3 people voted me president, 1 voted me next Genetically Altered Clone.... :D
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Europe
I think MK is 55/45 in Snakes favour or higher.
G&W is better than 6/4. On FD it's 7/3 or higher, same on SV and YI. GW can only counterpick him on Lylat (if RC is banned). Its 65/35 Snake or higher. I think it's 7/3 overall...
I also don't think that ROB is a worse match-up than Pikachu...
 

TheWaft

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
324
Location
Illinois--I live in a suburb of chicago. Looking f
D3 vs. Snake discussion here? Allright then, time to start. If it isn't i don't care, i'll just talk about it anyway.

I'm not to familiar with Snake, so i will try to do my best. I really don't think he should camp with nades on this one, because they take longer to cook than it takes waddle-dees to throw. Watch D3's sidesteps when your trying to forward tilt because if you miss, you could easily get chaingrabbed, get about 20-30 percent, and then put in a very bad off-stage position. watch chasing him up in the air, he could fast fall, air dodge, and up tilt you when he hits the ground. Don't even try to gimp him, and try to stay away from the ledge with suckicides. I'll talk about more later, but i don't really want to right now.
 

abit_rusty

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
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East Lansing, MI
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OP has been updated.

Please give 50:50 (percentage) matchups for our previous discussions so I can update away from the * difficulty ratings.
 
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