GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
You're right, you can also be Metaknight.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
This goes out to everyone learning Underused Characters
- Thread starter MusicalMike
- Start date
- Status
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
I don't see why you insist on coming into my thread and claiming that there are impossible match ups in this game. There aren't. There are TOUGH match ups, not impossible ones. Listen I know you are one who prefers to use methods that have already been discovered to win, but please respect my efforts as well as the others around me who are trying to discover new ones so we can give people like you a fresher metagame.
Rhubarbo
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2007
- Messages
- 2,035
Oh you, you're too silly. Anyways, don't snarl at Sonic, he can be used well in the right hands!
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Sorry, must've confused you with a different poster.
Wait a minute, then what are we arguing about?
Well actually, Shiek moved down two places, not one. And besides, Marth is widely considered better than Shiek and Falco anyway.
And if the entire debate is about winning with these lower characters, then they don't really have to pass Snake and Metaknight anyway. Yes, I agree that Snake and Metaknight will always be somewhere in the top tier or high tier. But...why exactly should that deter people from maining lower tiered characters. Last time I checked Fox and Falco weren't the only ones winning tournaments in melee, and Snake and Metaknight aren't the only ones winning tournaments in brawl, so obviously you can win with a character who's not top tier right?
Quite frankly, I don't think we're even arguing anymore, since we were really getting two different points across. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
Yeah. My hands.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Actually, I have to disagree. Ness vs Marth really is an impossible matchup IMO. Marth not only outclasses Ness in speed, range, and power, but he also has an infinite grab which chains right into it's own finisher. He also has better edgeguarding, a harder to gimp recovery, and a plethora of ways to deal with projectiles.
But of course, you could also just have a secondary.
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Fresher metagame? So, instead of picking Snake and running around ftilting and utilting a bunch of other Snakes, I get to pick Snake and run around ftilting and utilting a bunch of Peaches and Ganondorfs?
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
That's right you do. And we'll be fighting back ftw.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
but Ganondorf's Utilt sucks... lol
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Yeah, and when you lose to a Sonic player who knows how to side B, you'll be going wtf how!!!.
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^That's what I'm talkin' about
10mushrooms
10mushrooms
Great thread, I really needed this actually. Marth vs Ness is not impossible. I've yet to face a Marth with ness that could two stock me. It's always close.
The thing with me is, I honestly feel like my under used character is really good, I just think it takes longer to reach it, but in terms of max potential, I think it's equal to characters like Snake and Meta. That's why I'm building a secondary right now too get me through a few tough matchups til I learn my character better. It'll help me get just far enough to stay motivated. I suggest that to anyone else wanting to used under used characters. Just don't rely on that secondary TOO much more otherwise you won't improve on the character that you really want to ^_^
The thing with me is, I honestly feel like my under used character is really good, I just think it takes longer to reach it, but in terms of max potential, I think it's equal to characters like Snake and Meta. That's why I'm building a secondary right now too get me through a few tough matchups til I learn my character better. It'll help me get just far enough to stay motivated. I suggest that to anyone else wanting to used under used characters. Just don't rely on that secondary TOO much more otherwise you won't improve on the character that you really want to ^_^
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Edreeses...if I have helped you with this thread, then I am very happy for you. From what I hear you are a great Peach. Keep kicking butt man and hang in there, you can do it.
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Be an Entrepreneur! Take the INITIATIVE to use his utilt, and accept the RISK that you'll probably end up eating an attack for it. Just keep using it, and eventually, through persaverance and determination, there'll be entire "How to deal with Ganondorf's utilt" guides out there, reshaping the metagame as we know it.
Right, Kidd?
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
I know Gdorf's utilt has it's uses (anything can be pulled of with enough mindgames, even Melee Warlock Punch.) but I was kind of joking because you said you would be Ftilting and Utilting lower tiered chars with Snake rather than higher tiered ones, then Kidd said they would do it right back to Snake/MK with underused chars.
You can't really use Gdorf's Utilt like you can Snake's.
I see Kidd made an edit... Oh well. At least I made a different point.
You can't really use Gdorf's Utilt like you can Snake's.
I see Kidd made an edit... Oh well. At least I made a different point.
In keeping with the spirit of this thread, I'm just gonna tell you that if you are intelligent enough to twist his logic around, then why not put that intelligence to use boosting up a low-tier character?
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Missing, that was an unintentional miswording on my part. I didn't intend for my post to imply that you would fight Snake's Ftilts and Utilts with Peach/s and ganon's Utilt/ftilt, hence why I edited it. I meant to say that those two characters can fight snake, regardless of any ftilting and utilting he may throw at them.
Also, GoldenGlove,Although I understand the nature of your post, you are partially right. Experimentation is a huge part of learning one's character, but obviously through trial and error one is not going to keep doing things that will obviously destroy them and get them killed. When I first started using Peach I used her Peach Bomber and failed many a time with it. As time went on I learned other things...natural progression of your character, of course. Sure why not, see what you can do with his Utilt...if it doesn't work then be logical and don't use it.
Golden...can't you just see I'm trying to help? Why must you shoot down my efforts simply because they are contradictory to what you personally believe? Obviously you are the only person here who feels the way you do about what I've had to say to these people.
*Sips a cup of tea*
Also, GoldenGlove,Although I understand the nature of your post, you are partially right. Experimentation is a huge part of learning one's character, but obviously through trial and error one is not going to keep doing things that will obviously destroy them and get them killed. When I first started using Peach I used her Peach Bomber and failed many a time with it. As time went on I learned other things...natural progression of your character, of course. Sure why not, see what you can do with his Utilt...if it doesn't work then be logical and don't use it.
Golden...can't you just see I'm trying to help? Why must you shoot down my efforts simply because they are contradictory to what you personally believe? Obviously you are the only person here who feels the way you do about what I've had to say to these people.
*Sips a cup of tea*
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Right. And if (read: when) a low-tier character doesn't work, be logical and pick up a high-tier character.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Let's seriously stop talking about tier lists. There is already a discussion for that, take your Tier List discussions over there, I already said I wouldn't have it in here, and I've already been too lenient about it. So, Stop. I don't want my thread getting locked for going off topic.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Ice climbers and Jigglpuff made the cut in melee. Come to think of it, the last match of Grand Finals at pound 3...was a Jigglypuff ditto on Brinstar.
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Err...you acknowledged the existance of tiers in Brawl when you named one of your categories "Tier Titans". Perhaps you meant "Overused Character Titans"? It's alright though, as a fan of the Donkey Kong Country games, I know how appealing alliteration can be.
Sonic Wave: Every match of the grand finals at AzOneTwoStep was a Snake ditto. I can cite tournaments too!
Sonic Wave: Every match of the grand finals at AzOneTwoStep was a Snake ditto. I can cite tournaments too!
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Look. I'm not ignoring the good. I'm saying there is still good out there we need to uncover. More characters need to be developed, you can't honestly expect every good character to be dug up months.
Nick Nasty
Smash Journeyman
GoldenGlove, why are you still posting if you have nothing positive to contribute? It seems to me that you're just wasting your time here. I think that we all know by now that you dislike this thread...with a passion I might add. Just leave already; jesus christ.
otg
Smash Master
Listen, GoldenGlove is making a valid point. Of course low tiers need to be developed, but you can't ignore the fact that certain characters are placed in the tiers for a reason. You don't want this to be a tier discussion... but that essentially the subject matter isn't it? Developing the low tiers.
All matchups will at some point and time be developed, and I'm sure we'll inevitably see some obscure low tier countering Snake a few years down the line (in Melee: Dk vs. Fox, M2 vs. CF, etc etc). I'm with you guys, develop the low tiers as much as possible, watching the same Snake dittos at major tournaments over and over again is getting tedious. Just don't ignore the fact that certain characters are limited than others.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
True that. The best players on the west coast used Luigi, Samus, and Jigglypuff.
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Only, mine was an example of how characters other than top tiers are more than capable of doing well, and even winning tournaments. You know, characters besides Fox Marth, Shiek, and Falco. The last major melee tournament before brawl's release...and it's a Jigglypuff ditto.
So what makes you think that you can't win with lower tiered characters in brawl? Granted I'd expect them to be relatively high, but you don't have to play a top tier character to win. You could also play a high tier, or even a mid tier and still do really well (heck, you can bust out a low tier and just keep a high tier for counterpicking).
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Probably the fact that you can't win with lower tiered characters in brawl.
Okay, you can win anywhere from 1/7th to 1/250th as much as Snake can, according to the ranking thread that you're so eager to cite.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
1/7th seems fine to me.
And when we find a Snake counter, it'll probably go up to 1/5th or so.Although Wario and DK have already won half as many tournies as Snake, according to that ranking thread that you inaccurately referenced.
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
This is what happens.
1. Game comes out (lulz)
2. A few characters are discovered to be advantageous to use in a competitive environment.
3. Because this is a competitive community, and we play to win, we focus our attention on these primary "win" characters that have been discovered. After all why choose a character that MAY win when you can choose a character you KNOW is winning right now?
4. Attentions on these characters (I'll say...snake and MK) becomes disproportionate to the attention on other characters who appeared to be less suitable for competitive play. Naturally because more effort is put into these characters their techniques and overall metagame is developed quicker. Also naturally because more people focus their attention on these characters they probably use them to...which means since more people use Snake then say Yoshi,that more Snake mains enter tournaments. And because Snake mains are using a more developed character (snake duh), Snakes win more tournaments than anyone else, not only because their character is being developed quickly, but because many people play him… thus increasing the chances of a snake winning a tournament.
1. Game comes out (lulz)
2. A few characters are discovered to be advantageous to use in a competitive environment.
3. Because this is a competitive community, and we play to win, we focus our attention on these primary "win" characters that have been discovered. After all why choose a character that MAY win when you can choose a character you KNOW is winning right now?
4. Attentions on these characters (I'll say...snake and MK) becomes disproportionate to the attention on other characters who appeared to be less suitable for competitive play. Naturally because more effort is put into these characters their techniques and overall metagame is developed quicker. Also naturally because more people focus their attention on these characters they probably use them to...which means since more people use Snake then say Yoshi,that more Snake mains enter tournaments. And because Snake mains are using a more developed character (snake duh), Snakes win more tournaments than anyone else, not only because their character is being developed quickly, but because many people play him… thus increasing the chances of a snake winning a tournament.
GoldenGlove
Smash Ace
Ha, alright lucky post #777. Good show guys.
Look, I just had to play devil's advocate, purely for the sake of offering up a contrarian viewpoint. Notice how the last few pages weren't just "This is awesome!", "You rock OP!", "This is Awesome!" ad nauseum. Props to otg for that as well.
In all actuality, I'm just a DK player from New Mexico who doesn't care one way or the other. Have fun playing the game guys. If Kidd's essay somehow heightened your enjoyment of Brawl, good on ya.
Look, I just had to play devil's advocate, purely for the sake of offering up a contrarian viewpoint. Notice how the last few pages weren't just "This is awesome!", "You rock OP!", "This is Awesome!" ad nauseum. Props to otg for that as well.
In all actuality, I'm just a DK player from New Mexico who doesn't care one way or the other. Have fun playing the game guys. If Kidd's essay somehow heightened your enjoyment of Brawl, good on ya.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
Underused characters' metagames may not be developing as fast, but they are still developing for sure. Yoshi may have the most effective wavedash in Brawl, and it was discovered not too long ago. Who knows what he will have a year from now? The same goes to other underused characters. I wouldn't be surprised if there was something awesome Peach could do because she can float that we don't know about yet.
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
GoldenGlove, I don't mean any hard feelings, I now see that you were simply trying to stir up some contrary points to see if my essay was solid enough to handle it at all. Thank you for sharing your views with us, however blunt they might have been.
Nick Nasty
Smash Journeyman
You played me for a fool....gg good sir
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Sadly, I am a "Tier Titan"
Not to win, just to enjoy the game more. You see, I don't mind losing, but losing when I know that I should have won ruins the fun of a game. So I normally pick among the good characters, and choose who I am best with. I enjoy that.
That said, I would like to thank all the people who are working to make the character that they enjoy playing a better option to use in a competitive game. Kudos =D
Not to win, just to enjoy the game more. You see, I don't mind losing, but losing when I know that I should have won ruins the fun of a game. So I normally pick among the good characters, and choose who I am best with. I enjoy that.
That said, I would like to thank all the people who are working to make the character that they enjoy playing a better option to use in a competitive game. Kudos =D
Silent_Rain
Smash Journeyman
A simply beautiful post.
I am no tier titan, I just use characters who I like because I find them fun to play with.
Why be like everyone else when you can use a character that's not used as much and be unique and have your own unique playing style?
I am no tier titan, I just use characters who I like because I find them fun to play with.
Why be like everyone else when you can use a character that's not used as much and be unique and have your own unique playing style?
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Good stuff. I applaud both GoldenGlove and Kidd. Good show.
Both you managed to argue very valid viewpoints without anyone really resulting to simple threats, ignorance, irrelevance, or flat out flame.
Congrats.
Both you managed to argue very valid viewpoints without anyone really resulting to simple threats, ignorance, irrelevance, or flat out flame.
Congrats.
Airgemini
Chansey
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 9,410
- 3DS FC
- 2406-5625-4787
Very nice stuff here =D.
You stated your opinions nicely.
You stated your opinions nicely.
I think a player has to be respected either way they decide to take their game.
In the beginning I picked Dedede and Diddy because they appealed to me.
In the beginning I picked Dedede and Diddy because they appealed to me.
- Status