The untapped potential of Shieldbreaker

[feardragon64]

Just thought I'd add, the end of this video brought up a very interesting way to use shieldbreaker in doubles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWGCP47Jag (I can't take credit for this video though)

Since mario isn't used as much, maybe you could just use squirtle? =]

 

[Emblem Lord]

Haha. Tears of Sephiroth eh? I guess all the old faces just lurk now. You guys all pop up occasionally.

Anyway, you guys don't need to b-stick to wavebounce I'll tell you how to get the same effects and you won't have to sacrfice your c-stick to do it.

To do a wavebounced Dancing Blade just jump in any direction. Then hit forward b and the direction that is the opposite of you are facing. Then IMMEDIATELY hit the direction you are facing. You know you got when Marth does a forward B but moves backwards. Also the first hit of the Dancing Blade will look rather jagged.

To do a wavebounced Shieldbreaker it's a bit harder IMO. You jump and then hit the opposite direction you are facing. Then hit nuetral b and IMMEDIATELY hit the direction you are facing. Marth will be psuhed back and lose his momentum while doing a neutral b.

The easy way to do this is just to do a SH with forward momentum, but backwards this way Marth will do his SH back animation, but be moving forwards. Do that just run and hit jump and back. It's pretty easy.

This way the game has already registered the first direction for the wavebounce which is backwards. Then you just have to hit nuetral B then follow that with forwards immediately.

Now there are all sorts of wierd things you can do I think based on your momentum and the direction you are facing and whether or not you do a SH forwards or backwards, so let's all experiment ok?

Also I have some applications for both the Wavebreaker and the Wave Blade. Hehe. You KNOW you like those names.

Ok with the wave breaker it's pretty much what I said in my opening post. You can SH fair then when they shield do the Wave Breaker. The benefit here is that you have superior spacing thanks to the wavebounce. Also an easy way to do the Wavebreaker is to SH fair then hit back during your fair so that the backwards direction has already been inputted, Then when the fiar is done hit nuetral b and then forwards immediately.

Also you can do the same with the Wave Blade. Do a SH fair then Overshoot a bit. Then you can do the Wave Blade and Marth will bounce back. Good for spacing and I nice surprise move I would think.

See what else you can come up. I'm sure that this will add to the guessing games and the pressure games that Marth already has.

 

[Pierce7d]

Just a note - shieldbreaker appears to have a third hitbox - the main attack, the tip, and the EXACT tip. Hitting precisely with the end fully charged does 24% not 22%. It also has greater knockback, killing ganon from the center of FD with no DI at 43%, compared to 51% with the approximate tip.

I'll probably be able to do more research later, but recently I've been noticing that MOST of Marth's moves, if not ALL have this property. I've noticed Fsmash tippers, and then what I call FSmash super crits, that give even more ridiculous knockback than a tip. I previously convinced myself that my opponent wasn't DIing right, or that perhaps I just underestimated the power of the tip, but now that this is confirmed, I'm going to bring this out to the open. I've also noticed this with Fair.

Secondly, I find ShieldBreaker works highly effectively when your opponent is at the edge (not hanging but standing) of the stage. The lack of a roll dodge backwards limits their options, and jumping toward you is a pretty bad idea for most matchups due to Marth's fair, tilts, and Fsmash. This makes a well spaced ShieldBreaker an EXCELLENT move to use in that situation, since you'll be able to charge it a little to punish a perfect shield, sidestep, or front roll attempt. It's also good when your opponent's think they're out of range.

 

[Solaris1110]

Apperently when Marth is in the air you can do a reverse nuetral b one of two ways. The first way is just the old school way. You flick the analog behind you then hit b. Simple and nothing really happens. But theere is another method.

Do a SH then press b and quickly flick the analog stick in in the opposite direction almost immediately after you hit the b button.

Marth will be carried in the direction that the analog stick was flicked. He actually moves quite a bit. Not a huge amount of distance, but noticable. Could be good for spacing.

I believe that's the effect of B-sticking manually, with the control stick instead of C-stick.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Np, that's not B-sticking actually. B-sticking is when your momentum is reversed completely.

With what I described in that qoute Marth gets a BOOST in momentum in the direction that he is doing Shieldbreaker.

The inverse of b-sticking actually.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post, but who cares.

I been messing with around with different movement to see of Marth can do anything useful with his b moves on the ground. Turns out he can.

You can do a reverse Shieldbreaker on the ground and a retreating Dancing Blade.

Reverse ShieldBreaker works the same way as reverse Dolphin Slash in Melee. Just hit b then hit the opposite direction, Marth will turn around for his Shieldbreaker.

Retreating Dancing Blade works the same as a Waveblade, but will be far more useful IMO.

You just hit forward B in the opposite direction you are facing then hit the analong in the direction you are facing. Marth will step BACK with his forward B instead of forwards.

I think this will be EXTREMELY useful as far as Marth's spacing game with Dancing Blade is concerned.

Marth has been abandoned by nearly all of the high level players. Too bad they left before they saw how deep he really he is.

Haha.

That's fine with me though. I'm content to make all these little discoveries one by one.

 

[BacklashMarth]

He can step back with dancing blade? I will try that. It will help me tipper with it hopefully. To do it, you just press back+b then fwd+b then (taking in account your direction) correct?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just back + b then forward.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Alright. Thanks.

 

[feardragon64]

I think you should change the name of this topic to, "the untapped potential of Marth's specials", lol. It seems we're getting a lot into dancing blade too =]

And very interesting that he can step back. I'm trying that out right now(without much luck xD)

But the ability to turn around for your shield breaker gives me a great idea. Since you can use specials straight out of dashes, you can actually dash away from your opponent and shieldbreaker right at them(presumably they'll start to chase you as soon as you start to space)! I just tried it out and it looks great! It doesn't seem to give them much time to react either =b

 

[Dark Sonic]

Just back + b then forward.

How fast does the input have to be? I tried it, but I can't seem to duplicate the results.

Just to clarify, let's say you are facing right. So you press left on the control stick, hit B, and then immediately press right on the conrol stick right? And the desired effect is to do the side B facing right, but moving left?

I'm bad with examples, so sorry if you couldn't understand my question.

Also, if you do decide to change this to "the untapped potential of Marth's specials" then you should note that Marth's reverse up B is more usefull now. Marth turns around before doing the up B now, so it hits behind him. This is actually really usefull for hitting opponents that like to land behind you with their aerials. Also note that Marth's up B has more recovery range than before. Even if you are too low to autosweetspot, you can still grab the ledge after the peak of you're up B.

As for down B stuff, I don't think there's really anything notable about it other than it being more usefull now that it does more damage. I think he might hit behind him now when countering the spacies' side B's (Ike did, but I haven't tried it with Marth).

 

[feardragon64]

To help you out sonic, I would suggest going into practice mode to really understand what's going on.

Basically, what's happening is you start the side b in one direction. You'll see it actually come out(on 1/4 speed) for about 2/5 of a second. Almost immedietly after you press backwards+b(backwards being the opposite direction you want to attack in), press forward and you'll turn around. Just keep fiddling with timing on 1/4 speed till you get it. Then you can increase speed and practice =]

 

[JesiahTEG]

wtf didn't you just post this thread like this morning? LOL anyways, i broke a shield today with shieldbreaker..it was shorthopped..just to idk say something productive i guess

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was gonna post about that tonight, but feardargon beat me too it.

Anyway, yeah can do reverse neutral b out of a run. Just run then neutral b and hit the opposite direction. Marth will slide in that direction.

Also with the method of doing wavebouncing you can reverse Dancing Blade out of a full run!!!!

So your options from a run have greatly increased.

Anyway, the method is to run then forward b and then turn around. You will know you did it right because the first hit of Dancing Blade will look jagged. It must be done quickly.

MARTH MARTH MARTH!!!!! XD

Also until today I NEVER knew that Marth could Shieldbreaker out of a full run. That alone makes it more usable IMO and augments his pressure game.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I tried it...I tripped

Nvm, i got it...it is easy once you get it a few times...it looks mad weird though...kinda cool actually haha

 

[Warlock*G]

Marth has been abandoned by nearly all of the high level players.

What the hell. That's really not cool.

...

Too bad they left before they saw how deep he really he is.

So reverse dancing blade huh? Now *that's* the kinda trick I like!

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I was looking at Marth's frame data from Melee.

Shieldbreaker comes out on frame 5 in Melee when uncharged.

Which is fast.

I don't think it's that fast anymore, but not that much slower.

I wanna say no more then 12 frames no less then 8 or 9, but that's just a guess.

 

[Heart Break Kid]

You and your threads, wait till i get home so i can own you at brawl. Or you should get some people and go to a weekly somtime so I can mop the floor with you in tourny ho. No Johns

And I wanna see you pull this BS sheildbreaker strategy on me

Changed post for the guy below me. Lol its ok though i talk to Emblem Lord however I feel like it cuz that my n****. lmao. He taught me all I know about Marth in melee, thats why Im good.

 

[Warlock*G]

"****"... I so dislike the casual use of this word.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hello, to you too Brandon.

Yes, me and my threads.

Watch in awe as I poineer Marth's Metagame and my name is forever etched into the minds of Marth players worldwide.

But seriously I'm awesome.

 

[feardragon64]

Hello, to you too Brandon.

Yes, me and my threads.

Watch in awe as I poineer Marth's Metagame and my name is forever etched into the minds of Marth players worldwide.

But seriously I'm awesome.

qft

But anyways. Does marth "literally" step backwards in the 3rd hit of the dancing blade when you do this? Whenever I do it in the air, I can DI backwards but the 3rd hit always makes me step forward. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by stepping forward(the way I'm thinking of it is an animation change, though that doesn't make sense from an actual game developers perspective). Is Marth literally stepping backwards while facing forward, or is he just moving backwards while attacking forwards on the ground? Clarification on this would help much thanks! =D

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth steps back for the FIRST hit of dancing Blade, when you do the wavebounce method on the ground.

Just the first hit.

 

[feardragon64]

I see. Does that help for tippering the rest of the combo most likely or no? Just curious since I can almost get the entire dancing blades(much less, more than 1 or 2 of the hits) to tipper.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's just spacing really.

Also it allows Marth to do a reverse Dancing Blade out of a full run which makes Dancing Blade alot more useful, since now Marth's mix-up game out of dash is even better due to this.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Double post, but good discovery.

I have been messing around with Dancing Blade vs CPU opponents just to see if it is safe on block. As you know lvl 9's perfectshield d*mn near EVERYTHING you throw at them. So as expected they perfectshielded my fully spaced ShieldBreaker about half the time.

And I did not get punished for it. The most they could ever manage to do was roll towards me or TRY to rush me and I was able to roll away or up b in those instances.

Whenever I had poor spacing on the Shieldbreaker they would just perfectshield it then punish easily. But when well spaced they couldn't do anything to me.

This move just got a whole lot better IMO.

 

[slikvik]

Double post, but good discovery.

I have been messing around with Dancing Blade vs CPU opponents just to see if it is safe on block. As you know lvl 9's perfectshield d*mn near EVERYTHING you throw at them. So as expected they perfectshielded my fully spaced ShieldBreaker about half the time.

And I did not get punished for it. The most they could ever manage to do was roll towards me or TRY to rush me and I was able to roll away or up b in those instances.

Whenever I had poor spacing on the Shieldbreaker they would just perfectshield it then punish easily. But when well spaced they couldn't do anything to me.

This move just got a whole lot better IMO.

i hate you so much

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bahahahahahahahaha

 

[BacklashMarth]

Lol. What wuz that silkvik?!?! Idk, cuz it wuz funny.

 

[supernovvva]

What is a shieldbreaker, considering like a up B or over B i dont think anyone has explained this yet.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Shieldbreaker is Marth's neutral b move. It's a jab that you can charge that has the property of dealing amazing damage to your opponent's shield, hence the name.

 

[supernovvva]

Shieldbreaker is Marth's neutral b move. It's a jab that you can charge that has the property of dealing amazing damage to your opponent's shield, hence the name.

Thank you that was my guess but i was just checking

 

[Jibbles]

Probably an insignificant bit of info, but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mAMdz1VMNY

Fully charged "super tip" Shield Breaker does 26%

 

[meepxzero]

hmm shield breaker the new fsmash at low percents? its spammable plus it covers slightly more range than fsmash. Plus ull have fully powered fsmash when they are high enough to die. Just a mere 5-6% difference over the fact you can break their shield..... ;\

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jibbles: When I test it in practice mode it's slightly weaker although I have heard that in practice mode some attacks do slightly less damage, so that might be why.

Anyway, I tested Shieldbreaker on block against a friend. Well,it's not as safe as I though it was, BUT it seemed like my friend only had a fairly small window to punish me.

He had to react instantly to blocking my Shieldbreaker to punish me. Also he was only able to punish with very fash moves look a quick dash attack. Not smash attacks or very powerful attacks really. So the risk seems pretty minimal.

So I still feel comfortable with using this as a poking tool and a counter measure against defensive play.

 

[feardragon64]

Out of curiosity, (since I'm horrible at judging this stuff), how would you compare the poking effectiveness of shieldbreaker to dtilt? Honestly, for me dtilt is the ultimate poking ability. Shieldbreaker only has the advantage of being able to be used off the ground, thus in short hops, etc. (well that and the fact that it's a shieldbreaker xD). Dtilt also has a chance to trip people though, which sorta acts as a counterbalance to the shieldbreaking ability. What are your guys' thoughts on that?

P.S. and it also let's you get past people's shields sometimes because it attacks low, where most people's shields don't cover after a bit of time =b

P.S.S. Actually, come to think of it, maybe shieldbreaker to dtilt wouldn't be a horrible idea? Too bad after lag from shieldbreaker wouldn't give time for it =b

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's just two different aspects of Marth's gameplay.

D-tilt is bread and butter. It is one of the pillars of Marth's game.

Shieldbreaker is more like a trump card that Marth can pull out to turn the tides of a battle in his favor or mess with his opponents head and get them to play more recklessly. Or he can just use it to break a shield and get an easy kill.

Shieldbreaker is more situational, and d-tilt is a huge part of his game.

Although I think all this research has proven that Shieldbreaker really should play a bigger role in any Marth players game.

 

[SiegKnight]

This is the only decent and informative thread on smash boards right now, and about the only one I've seen concerning gameplay mechanics thats seriously helped my game, other than your other threads. I seriously like, almost spat my tea out when I read 'You can turn around shield breaker out of a run' - I was like... whaatt?! >.> I had to read it several times because it caught me off guard. Awesome trick.

keep it up.

my marth game was pretty minimalistic before. A race to score combos at low percents and a repeatetive, boring style of just trying to fair spike once they stopped being effective. I used counter on aether and other recoveries, jumped off of the stage to counter bowser or link up b's because counters edge guard them pretty insanely off the edge, but I never really had any good tactics.

Is the shield breaker easy to perfect shield if someone has good reactions, even if its done unexpectedly? Can they dash grab you after it if they, say, spot dodge it? Just wondering.

And what type of setups/situations should you use for getting it off? Other than the method of conditioning them into being defensive like you described earlier.

 

[Mighty_mo76]

I cant answer your questions, but I will say I saw this one guy on yutube who played a different kind of marth. im getting tired of seing theses fair spammers, but this guy (kinda a noob) was original

so im kinda excited about neutral b. I gotta work it into my game more.

Nice thread

 

[AuraMarth]

Balancing in Shieldbreaker once in a bit is a good idea, keeps them guessing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For set-ups it's pretty much anything that makes them shield or puts pressure on them or makes them think you are going to attack.

Brawl is such a defensive game that hitting a shield with Shieldbreaker is a very easy task. Especially against characters that HAVE to play defense, like Olimar or Dedede.

I wouldn't suggest spamming it or even using it as much as his other staple moves. What I am saying is that it could stand to be used a bit more in Marth's game.