Conviction
Human Nature
Well Damn.
-
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The Unity Ruleset: Discussion
- Thread starter Unity Ruleset Committee
- Start date
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
ROFL, well let me know when u actually accomplish something Cause while you "working" the bbrrc is getting things done.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Smashville - 834
Norfair - 81
3 Stocks:
Smashville - 71 or 8.5%
Norfair - 4 or 4.9%
2 Stocks:
Smashville - 315 or 37.8%
Norfair - 26 or 33.3%
1 stock:
Smashville - 448 or 54.79%
Norfair - 50 or 62.96%
Timeouts removed from equation, but not from total
From here we can see there's actually a larger discrepancy in stocks when playing on Smashville than on Norfair. The only thing I can think of that could cause this discrepancy is that because Smashville was a common starter there were more matches there between strong opponents and weak opponents. It's presumable that there were SOME matches between strong and weak opponents on Norfair, but due to the stage striking system and Smashville being the "go to" stage, it's far more likely for that mismatch to occur on Smashville. This can't account for the whole divide, but it does account for some of it.
That said, as a "strong counter stage", Norfair SHOULD have a strong divide, just in the opposite direction. If it IS a strong counter stage, there should be a higher than average number of uses on that character for that stage (potentially a higher than average for those that do bad on it as well, as they would be taken there), and the stock amount at the end should reflect this if it is truly a uber counterpick. Given that Norfair's 1 stock remainder is well over 50% while Smashville is hovering more towards the norm, the stats seem to show that it isn't that strong of a counter stage. If anything, it is more of an equalizer than Smashville!
But let's look at actual characters.
There's some data to chew on! Keep in mind this is OCCURANCES of character, not occurances of a character in separate sets; a ditto (like the Zelda ditto on smashville, which is weird) will show the character on there twice. That information is relevant to us, so I kept it.
The "average uses" is kind of skewed a bit by MK, but that's okay for this discussion. We're looking to see who is the best on the stage to see if it is really a "uber counter", so if MK wasn't that great on it and someone else WAS, their numbers would inflate. Not completely scientific, but we'll make due.
Smashville Average uses: 45
Norfair Average uses: 4.47
Characters that are at or go over the average on Norfair in alphabetical order:
Diddy
DK
Falco
G&W
Luigi (rounded down to 4)
MK
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
ROB (rounded down to 4)
Snake
Sonic
Wario
ZSS
From this list, you should be able to see who is most commonly seen on Norfair as a whole.
Characters that are at or go over the average on Smashville in alphabetical order:
Dedede
Diddy
Falco
G&W
ICs
MK
Pikachu
Pit
ROB
Snake
Toon Link
Wario
ZSS
Seeing some differences? How about similarities? Now that we have this list, we can figure some more stuff out! Seeing characters like D3 appear so often on Smashville but so rarely on Norfair is a good sign that D3 mains ban the stage or switch off it; he's probably not that great on it. Ditto with the ICs!
But what about the characters that are both above average for both stages? It could be that they're just really popular; MK would be above average on both, wouldn't he? Just by sheer number! So let's account for popularity in a rough way.
Here's the characters that are above average for BOTH stage:
Diddy
Falco
G&W
MK
Pikachu
Pit
ROB
Snake
Wario
ZSS
This is only a direct comparison between the stages, so it isn't concrete, but I feel that we can safely say that Norfair can be considered a counter stage against characters like ICs. The same applies to other characters that would appear heavily on smashville but wouldn't be caught dead on Norfair, and vice versa. But to truly complete this we'd need data for ALL the stages and determine more from that, but I'm doing this sloppily by just using Smashville as a representative stage of the "non counter" stages since it was the most commonly played, and therefore has the least resistance overall by the cast.
Here's a pretty chart for the ratio of all the characters. It's not exact, but thie bigger the difference between the stages, the more likely that character is good on one or bad on the other (or both). Seeing ICs jump on Smashville and drop on Norfair is evident of one or the other, but not both, but through our experience we know it is both. You can learn some pretty neat things here. I never thought of Norfair as a counter stage for Peach or Toon Link, but they both dodge that stage like the plague!
Here's the data comparing the averages for the characters that are "above average uses" for each stage in the form of a pretty graph
See those lines? If a character has a bigger line in one stage than another, it's pretty safe to say they "like that stage more". Some characters, like Falco and Wario, are pretty close. Others like Snake and MK are farther apart.
Looking at this, Diddy mains seem to be taking a hint from AZ and not switching off on Norfair (or can't?), while Snakes seem more prone to switching. G&W, Pit, and MK are the only ones on this list that have enough difference to even suggest Norfair is a prevalent "counter stage" for them, at least compared to the rest of the cast. Snake is the only one on this list that could be said to be "countered" by Norfair.
If you want to go into the MLG data and figure out the win ratio, be my guest, but I'm more concerned about usage at the moment. It tells us more than enough.
So far, I've seen no evidence for Norfair to be any different than any other stage as far as "countering" goes. While it may counter some specific characters harder (ICs, for example), the characters that are used most on Norfair have very similar stats for Smashville. If Norfair was really that divisive of a stage, you wouldn't be seeing things like this.
In a direct comparison between the two stages:
Those really hurt by Norfair are Dedede, ICs, Lucario, Marth, Peach, Fox, Toon Link and to a lesser extent ROB. Snake has a big gap between his usage on Norfair and Smashville, but he's one of the most played characters on Norfair; he's not hurting TOO bad!
Those really hurt by Smashville are DK, Game and Watch, Ganon, Olimar, Pikachu, Pit, Sonic, and to a far lesser extent Wario and ZSS. MK is in the same boat as Snake here; Norfair is obviously a better stage for him than Smashville, but he's the most played on both and successful at it so, eh. Norfair still a counter stage for MK though.
Do you see anything funny there?
9 hurt by Norfair. 11 hurt by Smashville. Give or take 2 on each if you feel that slight variations with the popular characters aren't relevant.
Those are completely different characters that are supported by this stage! If you take away Norfair, suddenly every character that I listed in the first group is HELPED and the second group is HURT. They can't get it back.
This is why you can't ban stages arbitrarily.
There isn't much of a significant difference in the above average characters played on both stages. There are 14 above average characters on Norfair, and 13 on Smashville. Smashville is no more "neutral" or "fair" than norfair is, and technically less as far as usage is concerned. Of those 14 and 13, a whopping TEN are shared as "above average usage". That's 17 characters referenced as being "above average" for the total, and only 7 that can't be considered above average usage on both. Freaking THREE above average used characters on Smashville can't just go to Norfair and say "uh, okay".
Because this is kind of rambly (but fun to read, ain't it?!), here's a recap of what we've learned so far:
1. There is a completely different set of characters that "do well" on each stage
2. There is a large overlap in the most commonly used characters on both stages, implying that the disadvantage that Norfair and Smashville gives is very slight in matchups involvings those characters
3. There are a lot of Meta Knights
4. The stock difference in the stages implies that Smashville, not Norfair, is more one-sided and allows for more extreme wins. This can potentially be due to Smashville being a starter and having more opportunities for heavy hitters to play lower level players, or Norfairs hazards making matches closer, or a combination of the two. Either way, Norfair does not allow for "easy" wins any more than Smashville does.
With me so far?
We've got ourselves a verified "okay stage".
Because it's fun, let's compare this to FD!
The "above average usage" characters on FD are MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, Dedede, Pikachu, Olimar, Sonic, ZSS, Diddy, G&W, Fox, ICs, and Pit
Are you seeing a pattern? :B
Here's a graph of all the characters.
Snake and MK seem to be the most telling; look at the complete inverse trend going on! G&W seems to do just as well on SV and FD, but excels on Norfair. Wario gets DESTROYED on FD. Seems like a lot of people do. Fox certainly does well there though.
But if you'll notice, almost across the board, FD and Smashville are the exact same as far as what characters will do well there. A few characters, like Fox, Olimar, and Sonic, really get hurt by that floating platform and prefer the room to move. (ICs always get it banned on them)
Norfair is almost the opposite in terms of what characters prefer it when compared to FD... and FD actually has MORE onesided matchups and more increases.
In other words, FD is more one sided and unfair than Norfair, so if you ban Norfair and not FD you're a bunch of hypocrites.
Here's the list of the characters that can are used "above average" on all 3 stages (you'll notice this list is getting shorter)
Diddy
Falco
G&W
MK
Pikachu
Pit
Snake
ZSS
And here's the graph:
it's important to note that Diddy isn't very common; this is due to the bans on FD, as one can imagine.
Looking here we find that ZSS does the same just above everywhere, as does Falco. Diddy would at least do that if he didn't have FD banned, but he'd probably be there way more otherwise. G&W and Pit really like Norfair, Pika seems to like FD even more than Norfair, and MK and Snake have an inverse trend going on. It's like MK is all about mobility and Snake is all about controlling space. :B
To recap once again:
1. There is a completely different set of characters that "do well" on each stage
2. There is a large overlap in the most commonly used characters on both stages, implying that the disadvantage that Norfair and Smashville gives is very slight in matchups involvings those characters
3. There are a lot of Meta Knights
4. The stock difference in the stages implies that Smashville, not Norfair, is more one-sided and allows for more extreme wins. This can potentially be due to Smashville being a starter and having more opportunities for heavy hitters to play lower level players, or Norfairs hazards making matches closer, or a combination of the two. Either way, Norfair does not allow for "easy" wins any more than Smashville does.
5. There is a larger discrepancy in matchups with FD than there is with Norfair; it's a "stronger" counterpick than Norfair has ever been.
THIS is how you decide whether or not you ban a stage. Not isolate incidences, not "well, I'm a PRO dammit and this is what I think", and certainly not the "that's gay" mentality anyone that lives near water seems to have.
Norfair is clearly not bannable. There's never been any data, ever, to show that it is over centralizing or even too good for a specific character. The ratios you find on Norfair can be matched with other stages (like FD) that are legal, and often characters that are played a lot on that stage (like MK) can be found to be just as common in others.
I've given some data over to whats his face (Twink? Twinkie?) whose name I've already forgotten, but this should be a good start. Hopefully he has more specific information, because that's something I avoided in this.
If you want to do MORE data mining on Norfair, here's what you can do:
Find out how often it was banned (already done search for dazwa's thread lol) and against what characters or by what characters
Find out what matchups had abnormally high win %
Collect data on length of matches
Collect data on damage done by hazards
Things like that.
I personally don't get hit by more than one hazard on Norfair a match, and that's generally because my opponent makes me get hit by it. I might be unique! If you had a tournament with Norfair legal and recorded each hit by the hazards, you could determine exactly how much damage Norfair does (this can also be done on the stats screen on the end, it shows damage given and damage received, if those don't matchup between two players the difference is Norfair + bubble damage). If it turned out taht Norfair did an average of 180% of damage, you could say "this is ****ing ridiculous" and have a legitimate complaint about banning the stage.
But "too good" for any character? Nah, FD's more a culprit.
Note: I haven't really reviewed this post, so whatever.
Norfair - 81
3 Stocks:
Smashville - 71 or 8.5%
Norfair - 4 or 4.9%
2 Stocks:
Smashville - 315 or 37.8%
Norfair - 26 or 33.3%
1 stock:
Smashville - 448 or 54.79%
Norfair - 50 or 62.96%
Timeouts removed from equation, but not from total
From here we can see there's actually a larger discrepancy in stocks when playing on Smashville than on Norfair. The only thing I can think of that could cause this discrepancy is that because Smashville was a common starter there were more matches there between strong opponents and weak opponents. It's presumable that there were SOME matches between strong and weak opponents on Norfair, but due to the stage striking system and Smashville being the "go to" stage, it's far more likely for that mismatch to occur on Smashville. This can't account for the whole divide, but it does account for some of it.
That said, as a "strong counter stage", Norfair SHOULD have a strong divide, just in the opposite direction. If it IS a strong counter stage, there should be a higher than average number of uses on that character for that stage (potentially a higher than average for those that do bad on it as well, as they would be taken there), and the stock amount at the end should reflect this if it is truly a uber counterpick. Given that Norfair's 1 stock remainder is well over 50% while Smashville is hovering more towards the norm, the stats seem to show that it isn't that strong of a counter stage. If anything, it is more of an equalizer than Smashville!
But let's look at actual characters.
There's some data to chew on! Keep in mind this is OCCURANCES of character, not occurances of a character in separate sets; a ditto (like the Zelda ditto on smashville, which is weird) will show the character on there twice. That information is relevant to us, so I kept it.
The "average uses" is kind of skewed a bit by MK, but that's okay for this discussion. We're looking to see who is the best on the stage to see if it is really a "uber counter", so if MK wasn't that great on it and someone else WAS, their numbers would inflate. Not completely scientific, but we'll make due.
Smashville Average uses: 45
Norfair Average uses: 4.47
Characters that are at or go over the average on Norfair in alphabetical order:
Diddy
DK
Falco
G&W
Luigi (rounded down to 4)
MK
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
ROB (rounded down to 4)
Snake
Sonic
Wario
ZSS
From this list, you should be able to see who is most commonly seen on Norfair as a whole.
Characters that are at or go over the average on Smashville in alphabetical order:
Dedede
Diddy
Falco
G&W
ICs
MK
Pikachu
Pit
ROB
Snake
Toon Link
Wario
ZSS
Seeing some differences? How about similarities? Now that we have this list, we can figure some more stuff out! Seeing characters like D3 appear so often on Smashville but so rarely on Norfair is a good sign that D3 mains ban the stage or switch off it; he's probably not that great on it. Ditto with the ICs!
But what about the characters that are both above average for both stages? It could be that they're just really popular; MK would be above average on both, wouldn't he? Just by sheer number! So let's account for popularity in a rough way.
Here's the characters that are above average for BOTH stage:
Diddy
Falco
G&W
MK
Pikachu
Pit
ROB
Snake
Wario
ZSS
This is only a direct comparison between the stages, so it isn't concrete, but I feel that we can safely say that Norfair can be considered a counter stage against characters like ICs. The same applies to other characters that would appear heavily on smashville but wouldn't be caught dead on Norfair, and vice versa. But to truly complete this we'd need data for ALL the stages and determine more from that, but I'm doing this sloppily by just using Smashville as a representative stage of the "non counter" stages since it was the most commonly played, and therefore has the least resistance overall by the cast.
Here's a pretty chart for the ratio of all the characters. It's not exact, but thie bigger the difference between the stages, the more likely that character is good on one or bad on the other (or both). Seeing ICs jump on Smashville and drop on Norfair is evident of one or the other, but not both, but through our experience we know it is both. You can learn some pretty neat things here. I never thought of Norfair as a counter stage for Peach or Toon Link, but they both dodge that stage like the plague!
Here's the data comparing the averages for the characters that are "above average uses" for each stage in the form of a pretty graph
See those lines? If a character has a bigger line in one stage than another, it's pretty safe to say they "like that stage more". Some characters, like Falco and Wario, are pretty close. Others like Snake and MK are farther apart.
Looking at this, Diddy mains seem to be taking a hint from AZ and not switching off on Norfair (or can't?), while Snakes seem more prone to switching. G&W, Pit, and MK are the only ones on this list that have enough difference to even suggest Norfair is a prevalent "counter stage" for them, at least compared to the rest of the cast. Snake is the only one on this list that could be said to be "countered" by Norfair.
If you want to go into the MLG data and figure out the win ratio, be my guest, but I'm more concerned about usage at the moment. It tells us more than enough.
So far, I've seen no evidence for Norfair to be any different than any other stage as far as "countering" goes. While it may counter some specific characters harder (ICs, for example), the characters that are used most on Norfair have very similar stats for Smashville. If Norfair was really that divisive of a stage, you wouldn't be seeing things like this.
In a direct comparison between the two stages:
Those really hurt by Norfair are Dedede, ICs, Lucario, Marth, Peach, Fox, Toon Link and to a lesser extent ROB. Snake has a big gap between his usage on Norfair and Smashville, but he's one of the most played characters on Norfair; he's not hurting TOO bad!
Those really hurt by Smashville are DK, Game and Watch, Ganon, Olimar, Pikachu, Pit, Sonic, and to a far lesser extent Wario and ZSS. MK is in the same boat as Snake here; Norfair is obviously a better stage for him than Smashville, but he's the most played on both and successful at it so, eh. Norfair still a counter stage for MK though.
Do you see anything funny there?
9 hurt by Norfair. 11 hurt by Smashville. Give or take 2 on each if you feel that slight variations with the popular characters aren't relevant.
Those are completely different characters that are supported by this stage! If you take away Norfair, suddenly every character that I listed in the first group is HELPED and the second group is HURT. They can't get it back.
This is why you can't ban stages arbitrarily.
There isn't much of a significant difference in the above average characters played on both stages. There are 14 above average characters on Norfair, and 13 on Smashville. Smashville is no more "neutral" or "fair" than norfair is, and technically less as far as usage is concerned. Of those 14 and 13, a whopping TEN are shared as "above average usage". That's 17 characters referenced as being "above average" for the total, and only 7 that can't be considered above average usage on both. Freaking THREE above average used characters on Smashville can't just go to Norfair and say "uh, okay".
Because this is kind of rambly (but fun to read, ain't it?!), here's a recap of what we've learned so far:
1. There is a completely different set of characters that "do well" on each stage
2. There is a large overlap in the most commonly used characters on both stages, implying that the disadvantage that Norfair and Smashville gives is very slight in matchups involvings those characters
3. There are a lot of Meta Knights
4. The stock difference in the stages implies that Smashville, not Norfair, is more one-sided and allows for more extreme wins. This can potentially be due to Smashville being a starter and having more opportunities for heavy hitters to play lower level players, or Norfairs hazards making matches closer, or a combination of the two. Either way, Norfair does not allow for "easy" wins any more than Smashville does.
With me so far?
We've got ourselves a verified "okay stage".
Because it's fun, let's compare this to FD!
The "above average usage" characters on FD are MK, Snake, Falco, Marth, Dedede, Pikachu, Olimar, Sonic, ZSS, Diddy, G&W, Fox, ICs, and Pit
Are you seeing a pattern? :B
Here's a graph of all the characters.
Snake and MK seem to be the most telling; look at the complete inverse trend going on! G&W seems to do just as well on SV and FD, but excels on Norfair. Wario gets DESTROYED on FD. Seems like a lot of people do. Fox certainly does well there though.
But if you'll notice, almost across the board, FD and Smashville are the exact same as far as what characters will do well there. A few characters, like Fox, Olimar, and Sonic, really get hurt by that floating platform and prefer the room to move. (ICs always get it banned on them)
Norfair is almost the opposite in terms of what characters prefer it when compared to FD... and FD actually has MORE onesided matchups and more increases.
In other words, FD is more one sided and unfair than Norfair, so if you ban Norfair and not FD you're a bunch of hypocrites.
Here's the list of the characters that can are used "above average" on all 3 stages (you'll notice this list is getting shorter)
Diddy
Falco
G&W
MK
Pikachu
Pit
Snake
ZSS
And here's the graph:
it's important to note that Diddy isn't very common; this is due to the bans on FD, as one can imagine.
Looking here we find that ZSS does the same just above everywhere, as does Falco. Diddy would at least do that if he didn't have FD banned, but he'd probably be there way more otherwise. G&W and Pit really like Norfair, Pika seems to like FD even more than Norfair, and MK and Snake have an inverse trend going on. It's like MK is all about mobility and Snake is all about controlling space. :B
To recap once again:
1. There is a completely different set of characters that "do well" on each stage
2. There is a large overlap in the most commonly used characters on both stages, implying that the disadvantage that Norfair and Smashville gives is very slight in matchups involvings those characters
3. There are a lot of Meta Knights
4. The stock difference in the stages implies that Smashville, not Norfair, is more one-sided and allows for more extreme wins. This can potentially be due to Smashville being a starter and having more opportunities for heavy hitters to play lower level players, or Norfairs hazards making matches closer, or a combination of the two. Either way, Norfair does not allow for "easy" wins any more than Smashville does.
5. There is a larger discrepancy in matchups with FD than there is with Norfair; it's a "stronger" counterpick than Norfair has ever been.
THIS is how you decide whether or not you ban a stage. Not isolate incidences, not "well, I'm a PRO dammit and this is what I think", and certainly not the "that's gay" mentality anyone that lives near water seems to have.
Norfair is clearly not bannable. There's never been any data, ever, to show that it is over centralizing or even too good for a specific character. The ratios you find on Norfair can be matched with other stages (like FD) that are legal, and often characters that are played a lot on that stage (like MK) can be found to be just as common in others.
I've given some data over to whats his face (Twink? Twinkie?) whose name I've already forgotten, but this should be a good start. Hopefully he has more specific information, because that's something I avoided in this.
If you want to do MORE data mining on Norfair, here's what you can do:
Find out how often it was banned (already done search for dazwa's thread lol) and against what characters or by what characters
Find out what matchups had abnormally high win %
Collect data on length of matches
Collect data on damage done by hazards
Things like that.
I personally don't get hit by more than one hazard on Norfair a match, and that's generally because my opponent makes me get hit by it. I might be unique! If you had a tournament with Norfair legal and recorded each hit by the hazards, you could determine exactly how much damage Norfair does (this can also be done on the stats screen on the end, it shows damage given and damage received, if those don't matchup between two players the difference is Norfair + bubble damage). If it turned out taht Norfair did an average of 180% of damage, you could say "this is ****ing ridiculous" and have a legitimate complaint about banning the stage.
But "too good" for any character? Nah, FD's more a culprit.
Note: I haven't really reviewed this post, so whatever.
Lol, get off your high horse. Hosting and running actual tournaments is more work and more useful to the community than the BBR making lists and charts on a forum.
I don't agree with Xyro and if I bothered to read those HUGE posts of yours i might agree with you, but don't place the BBR above TOs. As if typing on your computer counted as "actual work".
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
It's what I do in my real job too
I ran a circuit here just fine on my own and have done the TO thing enough. You might want to read some of them "big posts" with "words", you might learn something.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
That doesn't even make sense.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Tesh, I get that you are newish here.
OS has done exactly what you are asking him to do.
OS has done exactly what you are asking him to do.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your graph but I feel that perhaps a reason why people like peach and TL dodge the stage isn't because they are bad on the stage but rather they are pretty neutral on the stage. Why CP a TL there when you can CP them somewhere better (IDK what that is btw) Smashville happens to be where like 80% of game 1's go (made up numbers but I don't think its not accurate to say a heafty amount of game 1's go there). Norfair also seems to be a strong CP for a lot of characters (primarily MK and your not gonna ban Norfair with Brinstar and RC around).
And even if its actually NOT a good CP in some situations alot of players don't immediately know that. People say MK is broken on Brinstar, RC and Norfair and I hear Snake is pretty good on RC and he banned brinstar..... so lets go Norfair.
Falco probably got CPed to Norfair alot at MLG which would explain his presence there. Infact I think a correlation to this chart could be that the second highest number might infact be their second worst stage (or second best depending). Smashville will prob just be the largest in most cases because game 1 goes to smashville.
Obv MK is an exception to Norfair because people switch to MK all day when the stage is elected at Norfair.
And even if its actually NOT a good CP in some situations alot of players don't immediately know that. People say MK is broken on Brinstar, RC and Norfair and I hear Snake is pretty good on RC and he banned brinstar..... so lets go Norfair.
Falco probably got CPed to Norfair alot at MLG which would explain his presence there. Infact I think a correlation to this chart could be that the second highest number might infact be their second worst stage (or second best depending). Smashville will prob just be the largest in most cases because game 1 goes to smashville.
Obv MK is an exception to Norfair because people switch to MK all day when the stage is elected at Norfair.
M@v
Subarashii!
I can attest to this. I know I got cpd there a couple times at the mlgs I was at, and saw other falcos get cpd there, brinstar, or rainbow.
Conviction
Human Nature
Is safe to ask why Green Greens are banned?
hichez50
Smash Lord
Green Greens is banned mostly because the blocks fall at random times. I have seen some **** things happen because of the blocks falling. Also the horizontal blast zones are really close. You can kill people unbelievable early on that stage giving some characters really good advantages.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Just curious, about how much time did it take you to gather, record and organize your data?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
Delfino and Halberd are actually MKs strongest stages; Brinstar and RC aren't much higher than 50%. I forget Norfair's, but it is in the back room.
This is true, and something you can't really eliminate from the data without some serious work; this is a really limited look (only 3 stages, not accounting for bans).
The data really only show the average use of the characters on those stages; if the stage was bad for Falco mains, they would switch off or the numbers would be lower because people would just decimate them there... unless of course they banned it, then you'd have odd looking things like Diddy and ICs having FD as one of their least played stages.
You can get a basic idea of how often a character will be used in AMOUNT pretty easily, but the average SHOULD fix that to some extent.
However:
MK will ALWAYS be the #1 character on a stage. He's just used too often for it to be anyone else.
There will be discrepancies in the data because of this:
FD is easily the most extreme stage in the list, and so characters that do well on it won't show up on the list. It's the opposite problem the further down the list you go; Norfair isn't banned as often, so you see characters like Falco that might not CP it go there a lot because they have what they feel are stronger bans.
An easy way to get around this is to just say "This is (character), and he's showing a high/low amount of usage. Is this because he's always taken there / the stage is always banned in sets against him? OR is it because he always CPs there / he always bans it?
It's generally pretty easy to figure out. If MK has a low FD showing, it's more because he banned it. If Snake has a high Brinstar showing, it's more because other people take him there and he didn't ban it.
Kind of "common sense" to us now, but the data could be gathered in the future.
Le sigh.
Doesn't take that long. Maybe an hour, but I always slow myself down by doing multiple things at once.
Judo777
Smash Master
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Quick question what makes you say that Halberd and Deflino are MK's beat stage?Delfino and Halberd are actually MKs strongest stages; Brinstar and RC aren't much higher than 50%. I forget Norfair's, but it is in the back room.
This is true, and something you can't really eliminate from the data without some serious work; this is a really limited look (only 3 stages, not accounting for bans).
The data really only show the average use of the characters on those stages; if the stage was bad for Falco mains, they would switch off or the numbers would be lower because people would just decimate them there... unless of course they banned it, then you'd have odd looking things like Diddy and ICs having FD as one of their least played stages.
You can get a basic idea of how often a character will be used in AMOUNT pretty easily, but the average SHOULD fix that to some extent.
However:
MK will ALWAYS be the #1 character on a stage. He's just used too often for it to be anyone else.
There will be discrepancies in the data because of this:
FD is easily the most extreme stage in the list, and so characters that do well on it won't show up on the list. It's the opposite problem the further down the list you go; Norfair isn't banned as often, so you see characters like Falco that might not CP it go there a lot because they have what they feel are stronger bans.
An easy way to get around this is to just say "This is (character), and he's showing a high/low amount of usage. Is this because he's always taken there / the stage is always banned in sets against him? OR is it because he always CPs there / he always bans it?
It's generally pretty easy to figure out. If MK has a low FD showing, it's more because he banned it. If Snake has a high Brinstar showing, it's more because other people take him there and he didn't ban it.
Kind of "common sense" to us now, but the data could be gathered in the future.
Le sigh.
Doesn't take that long. Maybe an hour, but I always slow myself down by doing multiple things at once.
Conviction
Human Nature
Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't GGs have the same effect JJs has? Controlling a specific part of the stage will profit you the most?
Imo I see those two stages in the same boat. Seeing one or both of them legalized would make me happy.
Imo I see those two stages in the same boat. Seeing one or both of them legalized would make me happy.
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The name is Twinkie, Overswarm.
I just wanna note that Norfair is actually a great stage for Toon Link, since it gives him more routes and space to run away. The only two matches on Norfair was from a no-name Toon Link, and one from Kingtoon against San, which is an understandable loss since San is really good, and Norfair is an excellent Ike stage.
Then there was this section, which even though I haven't gotten to writing down anything on legality yet, I'll answer regardless:
Find out how often it was banned (already done search for dazwa's thread lol) and against what characters or by what characters
-Already done by MK26 in Dazwa's thread. Most banned by and
Find out what matchups had abnormally high win %
I know what characters generally have a good win rate on this stage, I most likely won't delve too deep into individual matchups. Characters that generally do well here off the top of my head would be would be Diddy, Wario, MK, Marth, Sonic, Toon Link, and a whole bunch more.
Collect data on length of matches
Can be done easily when I get to it. Interesting to note though, there was only one timeout on Norfair in all of MLG's 81 matches on Norfair.
Collect data on damage done by hazards
Can be done easily when I get to it, but I'm not sure how necessary it is really. Can't hurt trying though, right?
I just wanna note that Norfair is actually a great stage for Toon Link, since it gives him more routes and space to run away. The only two matches on Norfair was from a no-name Toon Link, and one from Kingtoon against San, which is an understandable loss since San is really good, and Norfair is an excellent Ike stage.
Then there was this section, which even though I haven't gotten to writing down anything on legality yet, I'll answer regardless:
Find out how often it was banned (already done search for dazwa's thread lol) and against what characters or by what characters
-Already done by MK26 in Dazwa's thread. Most banned by
and Find out what matchups had abnormally high win %
I know what characters generally have a good win rate on this stage, I most likely won't delve too deep into individual matchups. Characters that generally do well here off the top of my head would be would be Diddy, Wario, MK, Marth, Sonic, Toon Link, and a whole bunch more.
Collect data on length of matches
Can be done easily when I get to it. Interesting to note though, there was only one timeout on Norfair in all of MLG's 81 matches on Norfair.
Collect data on damage done by hazards
Can be done easily when I get to it, but I'm not sure how necessary it is really. Can't hurt trying though, right?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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The name is Twinkie, Overswarm.
I just wanna note that Norfair is actually a great stage for Toon Link, since it gives him more routes and space to run away. The only two matches on Norfair was from a no-name Toon Link, and one from Kingtoon against San, which is an understandable loss since San is really good, and Norfair is an excellent Ike stage.
This is the kind of stuff you can't really get from vague statistics like this; you just need a big enough sample to weed that out. Smaller samples, like with Toon Link, will have more variability. Larger ones, like MK, will not.
Yay! Link?Then there was this section, which even though I haven't gotten to writing down anything on legality yet, I'll answer regardless:
Find out how often it was banned (already done search for dazwa's thread lol) and against what characters or by what characters
-Already done by MK26 in Dazwa's thread. Most banned by
Incorrect! Need actual percentages and data, otherwise it is just your guesstimate, which is useless.
Yeah, timeouts are overhyped. PS1 had the most with about 4%, the average was 1% of all matches going to timeouts. Anyone that complains about timeouts is a blowhard who just remembers timeouts more than the dozens of other games that aren't timeouts.
It's kind of separate from the normal arguments, and it can be argued against too. If one person never gets hit by the lava and someone else ALWAYS gets hit, are the hazards too strong or was the player who got hit too bad?
But collecting enough data you can end up seeing that, on average, a player will take X% of damage, and you can decide for yourself if that is too much. Or, if you wanted to be super accurate, you could combine that info with info on every other stage's hazard, figure out how much damage they do, figure out the average damage across the board from hazards, then only look at the hazards in stages that do more damage than average.
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
Thats why we should do: Characters first, then bans (yes BANS), then Stages.
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Ah. I meant that their general character traits are complemented well with the stage, I didn't mean anything with win rates. I'm based a lot of it off of my numerous talks with various character mains about the stage, and through watching so many videos of Norfair over the past month. MK, Sonic, Toon Link (myself mainly), Wario, and Marth mains generally say that their character fares well on this stage. Along with all the matches I've seen, I can only agree that the stage generally complements them well in numerous matchups.
Again, this is most likely still incorrect to you since it's still just my opinion. Data would be the better way to prove this point, but at the same time, I can't really do that with MLG data since the sample size for a lot of characters are so small. Perhaps some, but not all. My Toon Link example is proof of that. I'll certainly look into this once I get to it, but I'm almost certain that the data will reflect this.
Also: Times Banned
Looks like I completely forgot Diddy!
From most to least banned, top 5 would be like this:
(/)MK26 has other similar graphs up in that thread, so you can go nuts. Shoutouts to MK26 btw.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I may not agree with everything Overswarm does or says but he puts in work which I can respect.
Honestly, I don't need to discredit or disregard people like BPC ot OS just because they have different opinions and speak strongly. I've learned a few things from both of them. I mean when I had first started TOIng a year ago, I said "PS2 is dumb and has no place in a competitive scene" One year later its legal and its my 2nd favorite CP.
I'm much more interested in the data itself than the person providing it as long as the person is knowledeable. So this animosity in the thread is dumb and needs to stop.
Also Im at work now so I did not read all of OS' post, so I'll look at things whenever I get home. Let's keep things less personal please.
Honestly, I don't need to discredit or disregard people like BPC ot OS just because they have different opinions and speak strongly. I've learned a few things from both of them. I mean when I had first started TOIng a year ago, I said "PS2 is dumb and has no place in a competitive scene" One year later its legal and its my 2nd favorite CP.
I'm much more interested in the data itself than the person providing it as long as the person is knowledeable. So this animosity in the thread is dumb and needs to stop.
Also Im at work now so I did not read all of OS' post, so I'll look at things whenever I get home. Let's keep things less personal please.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Worth your time. Excellent posts, right there. And I was gonna write up a diatribe about how much I pity you guys for having to work with Xyro, but because of this I decided not to. ^_^Also Im at work now so I did not read all of OS' post, so I'll look at things whenever I get home. Let's keep things less personal please.
IIRC the win records; like, MK had the highest win %s on those stages. (As in, isolate the matches with MK on a stage, and then count how many of those the MK won. Halberd and Delfino were the ones where MK really went wild)
Reizilla
The Old Lapras and the Sea
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There was a time when I felt Xyro was the most level-headed person in the BBR-RC. Tech, you're leagues ahead of everyone else in that regard.
Anyway, haven't been able to check this thread much, but has anything significant been discussed or announced in the last few weeks?
Anyway, haven't been able to check this thread much, but has anything significant been discussed or announced in the last few weeks?
Judo777
Smash Master
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hey I just thought of something important with the data you sent me that I think Ank made. So what he did was counted out the wins of MK's had on set stages compared to losses and the total amount of times played. Then he minused all the dittos correct? (I'm not actually looking for the equation but he removed MK dittos from the equation cause MK always wins those). Wouldn't that possibly skew the numbers tho because if I played say Falco and I got CPed by MK to Brinstar then I would switch to MK also. That would remove me from the chart when in all reailty we know if I had stayed Falco I would have got wrecked.
It makes sense (at least to me) because not only do I not think MK is near as strong on Halberd and Delfino as I do RC and Brinstar. But also those seem like two of the better stages for MK in many MU's where the stage isn't bad enough to make the other player switch. If I play Falco and I get Cped to Delf. or Halberd I'm not switching cause the MU doesn't swing that far.
It makes sense (at least to me) because not only do I not think MK is near as strong on Halberd and Delfino as I do RC and Brinstar. But also those seem like two of the better stages for MK in many MU's where the stage isn't bad enough to make the other player switch. If I play Falco and I get Cped to Delf. or Halberd I'm not switching cause the MU doesn't swing that far.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
I read your entire post and it was pretty informative actually. It somewhat makes me want to look into Norfair since admittedly I did not support this stage's legality. However, I am still iffy. But you bring up good arguments. Also just for kicks, could you provide me with the win ratios and such for those stages? I'm just curious is all, since you brought it up.Overswarm said:
ThanksAlfafa Monster said:
Also we'll be doing those chats fairly soon. The public chats will be monthly more than likely. We've also got another little "project" in the works that I discussed with Twinkie. Details will be released soon. I just need to get the ball rollin'. I'm eager to get you guys in touch with us more!
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Bah, my bad I did not elaborate at all on that. I was referring to each character. If you have MUs though...that'd be legit as well.
Oh if its readily accessible to me then, I'll just find it. Unless you want to appease my laziness and provide a link.
Oh if its readily accessible to me then, I'll just find it. Unless you want to appease my laziness and provide a link.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
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What is the problem with player's splitting?
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
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But isn't that the same thing that stalling and timeout tactics do?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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No. Not even close.
Stalling and timeouts are perfectly acceptable and have been integrated into nearly every professional sport.
Splitting is cheating.
SaveMeJebus
Smash Master
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How is it cheating?
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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"Hey, instead of the winner getting the money like the rules state, let's just split so it doesn't matter who wins"
Ussi
Smash Legend
Its basically both players throwing the match.