The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[SaveMeJebus]

"Hey, instead of the winner getting the money like the rules state, let's just split so it doesn't matter who wins"

These are top players that have earned the right to do what ever they want with the money they won.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

These are top players that have earned the right to do what ever they want with the money they won.

It's not their money until they have it physically in their hands. People agree to split before the match starts, which is money that is not theirs. They both know they are going to get the same amount of money now, and thus neither particularly care about the match.

Should have been here when all of this was explained. Several times over.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's not their money until they have it physically in their hands. People agree to split before the match starts, which is money that is not theirs. They both know they are going to get the same amount of money now, and thus neither particularly care about the match.

Should have been here when all of this was explained. Several times over.

They made it to finals though. Why can't they just do what they want to. It's not like they are getting payed to play at their best.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They don't always wait until finals to split. If they split in semis for whatever reason, that could potentially change who is facing who in the finals. That is bracket manipulation, that is cheating. And they could still technically do something to get themselves DQ'd mid-match even if it was finals. It's not their money until the tournament is over, end of story.

It's also a rip-off to everybody watching the tournament. It's fairly easy tell when people aren't putting their all into a fight. Nobody likes waiting for the grand finals, only to see a half-hearted battle.

Seriously: splitting is not defendable. You gotta be mad stupid to believe it should be allowed.

 

[ShadowLink84]

And you got kicked out of the BBR for bad behavior, and are in the BBR-C because you have a venue rather than anything intelligent to say.

If you're done here, just go ahead and go. You're a waste of space otherwise.


I'm gonna go ahead and do actual work rather than just grab a venue and hold people hostage.

Ouch.
I always miss the fun stuff.

 

[xDD-Master]

These are top players that have earned the right to do what ever they want with the money they won.

They cant earn it, if they didnt win.
They cant win, if they didnt play.
So easy.

Splitting etc. is WORST thing that can happen in a competitive community.

 

[MK26]

The stats are on your side, with the exception of Frigate; Frigate is one of MK's only losing stages at MLG (below 50%, the other is lylat). RC and Brinstar are both slightly above 50%, but Halberd and Delfino are up in the 70% range.

youve got a few epic posts here, but just out of curiosity are you removing mk dittos from these statistics? not doing so would bring the stats closer to 50% than they should be (as each mk ditto would add a win and a loss to each stage's count, and 60-40 (as an example) is closer to even than 30-10)

Also: Times Banned
Looks like I completely forgot Diddy!

From most to least banned, top 5 would be like this: (/)


MK26 has other similar graphs up in that thread, so you can go nuts. Shoutouts to MK26 btw.

lol thanks twink

just a heads-up to anybody who wants to look into the data but i cant guarantee that the banned by/banned against data is 100% correct, as i can't verify that all bans were stated between the first and second matches - theres always the potential for the loser of the first match to not state his ban until after he's won his second. However, if you assume that all bans were stated after game 1, then that data is 100% correct.

Speaking of which: Times Banned Against

 

[SaveMeJebus]

They don't always wait until finals to split. If they split in semis for whatever reason, that could potentially change who is facing who in the finals. That is bracket manipulation, that is cheating. And they could still technically do something to get themselves DQ'd mid-match even if it was finals. It's not their money until the tournament is over, end of story.

It's also a rip-off to everybody watching the tournament. It's fairly easy tell when people aren't putting their all into a fight. Nobody likes waiting for the grand finals, only to see a half-hearted battle.

Seriously: splitting is not defendable. You gotta be mad stupid to believe it should be allowed.

I would understand if these players where being payed to play, but they're not. People enter tournaments to play and win money. Them watching a the finals is just a bonus.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with splitting.

 

[xDD-Master]

There is absolutely everything wrong with splitting.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Anyone that has a problem with players splitting should just get better. Make them play out the finals set against you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Anything more than that doesn't need to be said.

Overswarm's argument is a clear strawman - invoking tradition as an argument on why stalling is OK is nothing more than a dodge. Just because something used to be done in the past [or in a different competition] a lot doesn't make it any more right/wrong than something that is a more recent issue but ultimately has the same flaws. Since the argument is based on the same logic in both cases either both is right or both is wrong.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, how about this for a reason why splitting is wrong / proof that the two players in GF haven't actually earned the money they are playing for:

What happens if BOTH PLAYERS ARE DISQUALIFIED IN GRAND FINALS?

Logically, the money would then go to 2nd and 3rd places, respectively, and 4th place would then be promoted to a placing position. Well, it's impossible to know if both players would do something DQ -worthy in the GF match if they aren't playing their best or playing seriously, which means it's impossible to know if either player would be DQ'ed, which means it's impossible to know if either player actually won the money.

THERE. Splitting is cheating, since it assumes the GF players will even be awarded the money they are playing for.

QED. Get at me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Ok, how about this for a reason why splitting is wrong / proof that the two players in GF haven't actually earned the money they are playing for:

What happens if BOTH PLAYER ARE DISQUALIFIED IN GRAND FINALS?

Logically, the money would then go to 2nd and 3rd places, respectively, and 4th place would then be promoted to a placing position. Well, it's impossible to know if both players would do something DQ -worthy in the GF match if they aren't playing their best or playing seriously, which means it's impossible to know if either player would be DQ'ed, which means it's impossible to know if either player actually won the money.

THERE. Splitting is cheating, since it assumes the GF players will even be awarded the money they are playing for.

QED. Get at me.

But there is no problem with splitting. The only players that the splitters are hurting are themselves. What does anyone else get from watching two players being forced to try in finals? This rule would only make sense if these players were being payed to play for your enjoyment (which they are not)

 

[Jack Kieser]

You didn't read it at all, did you? Let me break it down one more time:

1 ) If players split, then they don't have to worry about playing a serious match; they still can, but (from their perspective) it's not a necessity, since the money is split anyway and it's irrelevant (to them) who gets 1st or 2nd.

2 ) If players don't have to worry about playing a serious match, they might not play the match the same way they would have it they did have to worry about playing to their highest potential (technically speaking, it's guaranteed that they won't play the same match, but I'm throwing a bone here).

3 ) If they don't play the same match that they would have if they were playing seriously, they might not do something that would have otherwise gotten them DQ'ed, something that a serious player might do (either on purpose or by accident) in a serious match; for instance, a player might not plank hard and might not go over the LGL, or a player might not try to sneak in an IDC where he otherwise would have, or any other thing a player could potentially be DQ'ed for.

4 ) If a player WOULD have been DQ'ed, he would have forfeited his ranking, and thus the cash that goes with it. Another player would have claimed the prize.

Therefore,

5 ) Splitting introduces a variable that cannot be accounted for (if a player playing seriously would have done something to be DQ'ed). This is a non-trivial variable, since disqualification would affect not only rankings, but how prizes would be awarded.

Thus, splitting cannot be tolerated; the act of splitting, by its very nature, allows players to manipulate the bracket in unforeseen ways, and all forms of bracket manipulation are strictly banned as cheating. Thus, splitting is cheating.

Again, quot erot demonstrandum. Want to try again, smart guy?

 

[xDD-Master]

Splitting is exactly the oppisite of what a tournament is for.
God Damn.

In the extreme, everyone could agree to split, that would make 10$ Tournament Entree Fee, and because everyone splits with everyone, you get 10$.
Congratulation.
We want to test the skill, and you have to use your skills to get the money.

Splitting is counter-productive in EVERY SENSE if you want a competitive community.

Do you also think bribing is OK?
"Hey I give you 50$ if you let me win" ... "OK".
If you think splitting is OK, you should find bribing also OK.
Its nearly the same form of manipulation.

In many sports there sometimes happens bribes. Do you find that OK? Do you find it OK when one team looses one purpose?
ITS THE SAME. YOU MANIPULATE RESULTS FOR MONEY.
Why risking 50$ if you can split and both get 200$?
Why should you win, if your oppenant bribes you with 50$, so you let him win, why not taking the free money, especially when its pools and/or winners bracket, or if you wouldnt place in the money anyway.

Do you think thats ok?


And then again there are also the "watchers".
Gheb, srsly, how would you find it, when the Top 8 wouldve split all together @ BiB or DS or M2N?
How about lets all split @ BiB2, so we dont have to play for our money.
Oh wait, there are players that actually come to see those matches and feel the hype live?
Yeah they exist. Oh wait, they dont count? Or what?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Jack Kieser

1. So what. They are not being payed to try. That doesn't matter.
2. This also doesn't matter. No one should ever be forced to play in a certain way or be forced to try when they have gotten to a certain point in the bracket
3. These players are not stupid. going over the ledge grab limit doesn't get you DQed. I causes you to lose the match. This is just another way players can intentionally lose and get passed these stupid rules. Also,why are you assuming that all the players at the top are going to be using MK (IDC)?
4. You don't get DQed. you lose the match so it won't work.
5. Again. Who cares if they tried or not. They are not being payed to try.

 

[xDD-Master]

I care.
Point destroyed.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I care.
Point destroyed.

Ok then. Get better, make it to finals and force them to play it out against you. Problem solved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4

 

[xDD-Master]

How about, no?

WSF Me vs Random <- I dont split (I win)

WSF Noob1 vs. Noob2 <- They split

^ I care

(I win tournament)


Problem not solved.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

How about, no?

WSF Me vs Random <- I dont split (I win)

WSF Noob1 vs. Noob2 <- They split

^ I care

(I win tournament)


Problem not solved.

who does it hurt?

 

[xDD-Master]

Me.

10mes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Me.

10mes.

how? 10hows

 

[Jack Kieser]

...Jebus, did you seriously just try to counter a premise with "who cares"? I... I don't... what?

No. If you can't at least be bothered to prove your own premises, then stop posting. You are making a claim ("players are not being payed to try"), but you have no even theoretical evidence to back that claim up. At all. You just state it as though it is fact. It is not fact.

You cannot win money if you don't place in the top three. Tournaments are designed to rank players in order of skill. The top three players should, therefore, be the most skillful players (or at least, the players who played the most skillfully). If the two players who are in GF don't play skillfully, then the ranking isn't accurate. Money is only awarded to accurately ranked players based on current bracket manipulation rules (if the bracket is manipulated, the ranking isn't accurate, and so the manipulating player is DQ'ed). Therefore, if players don't play skillfully, they aren't given money.

That is a logical argument. If you have issue with part of it, you still have to prove why you have issue with it.

Now, if you don't stop posting your one-line BS, I'm going to start reporting you for spam posts.

 

[xDD-Master]

how? 10hows

Because I go to tournaments to watch & to play & to chill with people
And then again, I got manipulated by splitting once.
I wouldve probably get 2nd, and only got 3rd, because the best player decided to split with the guy in WF, and to loose on purpose.
I wouldve probably beat the other guy, but I couldnt but the "Nr. #1 Guy".
So I only got third.
I COUDLVE gotten 2nd.
That wouldve been more money too.
So I do care.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

...Jebus, did you seriously just try to counter a premise with "who cares"? I... I don't... what?

No. If you can't at least be bothered to prove your own premises, then stop posting. You are making a claim ("players are not being payed to try"), but you have no even theoretical evidence to back that claim up. At all. You just state it as though it is fact. It is not fact.

You cannot win money if you don't place in the top three. Tournaments are designed to rank players in order of skill. The top three players should, therefore, be the most skillful players (or at least, the players who played the most skillfully). If the two players who are in GF don't play skillfully, then the ranking isn't accurate. Money is only awarded to accurately ranked players based on current bracket manipulation rules (if the bracket is manipulated, the ranking isn't accurate, and so the manipulating player is DQ'ed). Therefore, if players don't play skillfully, they aren't given money.

That is a logical argument. If you have issue with part of it, you still have to prove why you have issue with it.

Now, if you don't stop posting your one-line BS, I'm going to start reporting you for spam posts.

If this were true, tournaments would be played for honor and not money. To the players that want to split, it is obvious that money is all that matters. Try hosting a tournament that rewards the top players with honor and see where that gets you

 

[xDD-Master]

Do you find bribing also OK ?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because I go to tournaments to watch & to play & to chill with people
And then again, I got manipulated by splitting once.
I wouldve probably get 2nd, and only got 3rd, because the best player decided to split with the guy in WF, and to loose on purpose.
I wouldve probably beat the other guy, but I couldnt but the "Nr. #1 Guy".
So I only got third.
I COUDLVE gotten 2nd.
That wouldve been more money too.
So I do care.

So get better. I think bribing is stupid. You will not get far if you have to bribe players to get your wins. I don't think it's wrong though. As long as pros have to play to play and aren't being payed to play, it shouldn't be wrong.

 

[Jack Kieser]

If this were true, tournaments would be played for honor and not money. To the players that want to split, it is obvious that money is all that matters. Try hosting a tournament that rewards the top players with honor and see where that gets you

What? No, that's how tournaments are played now. "Honor" is not necessary because money is a better motivator. Players know that they can't get money without beating people, and you can't beat people without being skilled / playing skillfully. If you let people split, then you introduce a way for players to advance without playing skillfully, which undermines the whole process by eliminating the motivation to play well that money provides.

How can you not get this?

 

[xDD-Master]

I hope you know that bribing and splitting is the death of every competition, right?
Why making a tournament in the first place if no one actually wants to have competition.
Tell me.

Would you go to a tournament that consist of players who dont want to play?
Do you want to be at a tournament where everyone excepts you wants to split?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What? No, that's how tournaments are played now. "Honor" is not necessary because money is a better motivator. Players know that they can't get money without beating people, and you can't beat people without being skilled / playing skillfully. If you let people split, then you introduce a way for players to advance without playing skillfully, which undermines the whole process by eliminating the motivation to play well that money provides.

How can you not get this?

When players split, they've already advanced as far as they can go. The players that are going to split aren't going to get any further than they are now.

 

[Jack Kieser]

That's not true at all! In Grand Finals, both players are ranked #2; it's not until after Grand Finals that a player is ranked #1! So, even by your own argument, splitting affects the results because at least ONE PLAYER will change ranking after the match!

You lose, dude! (I'm not even going to say "sir", since you obviously don't deserve that honorific).

 

[Judo777]

@Jack Kieser

1. So what. They are not being payed to try. That doesn't matter.
2. This also doesn't matter. No one should ever be forced to play in a certain way or be forced to try when they have gotten to a certain point in the bracket
3. These players are not stupid. going over the ledge grab limit doesn't get you DQed. I causes you to lose the match. This is just another way players can intentionally lose and get passed these stupid rules. Also,why are you assuming that all the players at the top are going to be using MK (IDC)?
4. You don't get DQed. you lose the match so it won't work.
5. Again. Who cares if they tried or not. They are not being payed to try.

1. I care.
2. Go play a non competative game then. No one should be forced to play in a smart way that makes you win the match. "This is ridiculous that I am being forced to not do things that make me lag right in front of the opponent and results in me always getting hit and eventually losing!"
3. You don't have to go over ledge grabs there are easier ways of getting DQed. You can freeze the game, turnoff the game, punch the other player in the face, accidentally not show up trying to use the bathroom before a serious match. There are lots of things. Both players might pause while mashing or something.
4. see 3.
5. I care.

 

[Overswarm]

youve got a few epic posts here, but just out of curiosity are you removing mk dittos from these statistics? not doing so would bring the stats closer to 50% than they should be (as each mk ditto would add a win and a loss to each stage's count, and 60-40 (as an example) is closer to even than 30-10)

Yes, there are no MK dittos in that. Should have clarified.

Anyone that has a problem with players splitting should just get better. Make them play out the finals set against you.

I did. It's true, I would give money to second place sometimes.... but after the game. And I wasn't looking for more money, I was looking for less. I beat Xisin (Marth main, used to play Brawl in KY) in the finals of a tournament and he put up a good fight. 1st place got too much money, so I gave him some of my winnings. That's fine.

Saying "Hey bro, you want to split" to someone that could otherwise beat you is wrong. Doing what Mew2King did and bracket rigging is even moreso wrong.

^ Anything more than that doesn't need to be said.

Overswarm's argument is a clear strawman - invoking tradition as an argument on why stalling is OK is nothing more than a dodge. Just because something used to be done in the past [or in a different competition] a lot doesn't make it any more right/wrong than something that is a more recent issue but ultimately has the same flaws. Since the argument is based on the same logic in both cases either both is right or both is wrong.

It's not tradition.

It's not their money to split; anyone that splits in any of my venues would be immediately permanently banned.

This:

It undermines the quality of competition, deprives people of an actual final match, and cheapens tournaments as a whole.

Says nothing about tradition. It's about the actual quality of a tournament, and the matches being real matches.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I hope you know that bribing and splitting is the death of every competition, right?
Why making a tournament in the first place if no one actually wants to have competition.
Tell me.

Would you go to a tournament that consist of players who dont want to play?
Do you want to be at a tournament where everyone excepts you wants to split?

I would never split. I just think that if both players agree to it, then it's no one else's business just like playing on illegal stages or turning on smash balls.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Guys, stop answering with "I care"; Jebus obviously doesn't care, and that's just giving him what he wants (that is to say, he's trolling you for emotional responses).

 

[xDD-Master]

I would never split. I just think that if both players agree to it, then it's no one else's business just like playing on illegal stages or turning on smash balls.

Believe me. The day you get screwed by splitting, you wouldnt support it anymore.

Guys, stop answering with "I care"; Jebus obviously doesn't care, and that's just giving him what he wants (that is to say, he's trolling you for emotional responses).

He will care the day he looses money to splitting (Like it probably happened to me once)

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Believe me. The day you get screwed by splitting, you wouldnt support it anymore.

What does this have to do with what I posted? I said I would never split.

 

[xDD-Master]

What does this have to do with what I posted? I said I would never split.

Because you still argue pro-splitting

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Because you still argue pro-splitting

For me, there is win and lose. I doesn't matter how it happened as long as I was able to do something about it