The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Conviction]

11 mins until my Onett vid from yesterday finishes uploading. Just saying that so the Onett discussion doesn't get lost in the current one.

Onett is Legit

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, everyone really should watch the vid OS posted.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah, everyone really should watch the vid OS posted.

Abusing the forced reactions cars give stop camping, or wall infinites on the ground level. You can easily maneuver away from said walls. Cars also stop potential blast zone camping.

Onett is Legit

Video is up, now that I think about it. The cars could have been abused more.

NEVERMIND THE VIDEO...Youtube gayed me and did something while uploading it, that made gameplay speed up. I'll investigate the problem >.>

EDIT: It looks like my capture is the thing that messed up, I'll have to re-record it. -____________- bbl

 

[Conviction]

Okay double posting because no one will know I got the video up unless they looked at my last post.

Onett is legit: Reloaded

 

[MK26]

^^i am intrigued

 

[Conviction]

Same here, I'm going to continue studying this stage and see what else is possible on here.

For example, I wonder if you can use port priority to be able to throw your opponent and if the car hits while in the throw, if you will go into a grab release animation kinda like when you hit Snake's nades or mines. <- Derp it doesn't I watched the vid.

 

[Overswarm]

for example, i wonder if you can use port priority to be able to throw your opponent and if the car hits while in the throw, if you will go into a grab release animation kinda like when you hit snake's nades or mines.

>:[

10 >:[

 

[Conviction]

>:[

10 >:[

I'm sorry I think I might have missed something. I'm about to look at your video now.

Also to add on to what I was saying earlier.

Maybe you can use the platforms connected to main building as a frame trap when they fall and become inactive for a little. This includes GIMR's metagame minute tactic, where you hit an opponent while they are shielding and they fall off the platform and go into a tumble animation where they can not input anything but slight DI.

So when right before the platforms go inactive you put your opponent in shield stun, the platforms go inactive and then you have successfully put your opponent into that tumble animation. (All ending lag from moves disappear when you slide off a platform. So in this case instead of sliding, the platforms just go inactive.) So for example I'll use Fox's Usmash. The platforms are about to go inactive, my opponent is shielding, I Usmash them putting them into hitstun. They hit the tumble animation and my Usmash has been cancelled. I can proceed to punish my opponent with any aerial.

This stage also puts more depth into the game where I kind of did it, see where I Nair'd him into the building then he failed to tech and then Shine'd him back into to building. The stage's buildings put into a new sense to the tech chase. Forcing your opponent to bounce off the wall, they will either: Fail the tech, tech the building, or wall jump tech the building. I felt that was cool because it was like tech chase only from an off wall perspective.

I believe this stage will be a strong/good CP for characters that excel in vertical kills, such as Snake, Fox, King DDD, etc. and will probably be a wise choice to ban if you rely on horizontal kills. Diddy, Mario, Falco, etc.

EDIT: I'm sorry OS. So do you want to help me revive the push for Onett then?

 

[Life]

Standing on the mast and never getting hit is plausible, but only if you are in the lead.

Not necessarily true. Even if you're behind, you only have to chill out on the mast for the, what is it, 10-20 seconds the bombs are coming? Unless you're in the last minute or two, it shouldn't really be a problem. And you might end up getting the wind instead of the bomb tower, which will force them to get out, and you can possibly intercept them as they do.

Regular water camping is not a problem on Pirate Ship. Rudder camping might be, but it's pretty easily bannable as stalling. And if worst comes to worst, swim time limits solve the problem (though whether it's worth adding another rule just to legalize one stage, that may also affect Delfino, is another matter).

 

[Judo777]

Not necessarily true. Even if you're behind, you only have to chill out on the mast for the, what is it, 10-20 seconds the bombs are coming? Unless you're in the last minute or two, it shouldn't really be a problem. And you might end up getting the wind instead of the bomb tower, which will force them to get out, and you can possibly intercept them as they do.

Regular water camping is not a problem on Pirate Ship. Rudder camping might be, but it's pretty easily bannable as stalling. And if worst comes to worst, swim time limits solve the problem (though whether it's worth adding another rule just to legalize one stage, that may also affect Delfino, is another matter).

San has told me that rudder camping is realistically impossible (or rather its WAAAAAYYYY too risky and can only be done fro short intervals).

@Iblis while ur vid was fun to watch and I like the idea, I don't think ur vid was a very good example of why it should be legal. It looked much more like 2 people trying to play on the stage in an appropriate way much more so than trying to abuse the stage.

Had Wario been running away like a little girl and camping the blast zones when close it would have been a better example.

 

[Conviction]

Okay Judo thanks for the input, I'll try to get more matches with blast zone camping.

 

[Life]

Make sure somebody plays D3, too. Camp near buildings, dthrow and whatnot, and show you can beat him using the cars.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There is a video of Marth vs. D3 on Onett.

I think it was from a Nova Scotia tourney, can't remember.

 

[Conviction]

Make sure somebody plays D3, too. Camp near buildings, dthrow and whatnot, and show you can beat him using the cars.

Eh, our last D3 main became a Falco main LOL.

What I can do is play against characters that have wall infinites, like MK's Dtilt. Is there any character in particular besides DDD? because I think he died in the ATL South, but if you have anyone else I'll try to get that character if my region's character pool allows it.

There is a video of Marth vs. D3 on Onett.

I think it was from a Nova Scotia tourney, can't remember.

Link?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't find it because I don't remember the names of the players, does anyone else from the stage boards remember the match I'm thinking of?

 

[Life]

-_- @ people complaining about RC on the genesis stream

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-_- @ people complaining about RC on the genesis stream

Tell them to learn how to play the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

They are complaining about Brinstar too >_>

 

[ぱみゅ]

I can't find it because I don't remember the names of the players, does anyone else from the stage boards remember the match I'm thinking of?

I only remember it was Raziek....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZbbuuBeNTU

Thankyou very much Kyokoro.

 

[Conviction]

I'm stilling lol'ing at the whole freebear thing. On AIB we call him MajinBear.

 

[DMG]

So, scroging. There is no rule against it. *sees M2K vs Wyatt*





... Really guys? We gotta do something.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I definitely agree.

Also we should have a Tornado limit, lots of otherwise viable characters like DK and D3 get shut down by it.

Uair is pretty broken as well, if we put a limit on that, we can stop planking even further.

ALTERNATIVELY WE COULD JUST BAN META KNIGHT.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ok, I'm sorry to derail a bit, but I'd better see something in the card list giving M2K more than a Yellow Card after the **** he's pulling at Genesis. Seriously, this is supposed to be a Unity tournament, and they aren't even sticking to their own rules. This is pathetic.

 

[DMG]

What has he done? Scrooging is one thing, I don't think we should card him for something blatantly our fault (not putting a scrooging rule on loooong after he demonstrated in multiple sets how dumb it is). Besides that, I've not seen anything like bracket manipulation.

 

[Tesh]

He doesn't want to play out Grand Finals in Brawl Singles but....

 

[Jack Kieser]

What about his flat-out refusing to play GF and stalling the tournament? I'm watching the stream now; they had to waste a good 5-8 minutes trying to pull M2K off of Melee because "he didn't feel like playing Brawl anymore". Even Chibo has been posting in the live chat that they should have DQ'ed him because of the Mage's rule. Yet, an exception is being made so that he can still play GF?

That's. ********.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I fail to see how it's Jason's fault that the TO hasn't DQ'd him.

If he doesn't want to do Brawl grand finals, that's his own decision. You can't force him to play if he doesn't want to, just DQ him as per the rules and don't hand out any cards.

Unless I'm getting the situation confused and M2K actually does want to do Brawl GFs, but he is stalling it out?

 

[DMG]

Idk. I don't think it's a big deal unless he was doing it for half an hour+. People would prefer M2K play Ally than split and leave, or DQ and leave.

 

[Jack Kieser]

It's not M2K's fault he hadn't gotten DQ'ed (as of now, he's playing GF with Ally on FD). What I'm saying is that, if the BBR-RC is going to go through the trouble of making a punishment system / making sure the Mage's DQ rule is a part of the UR, then they better make sure they enforce their own rules. Considering the circumstances (it's Genesis), it's ALL of their responsibility to make sure the TO's involved enforce the BBR-RC's rules.

As for M2K's refusal to play, that should be a card-able offense, especially considering he's already Yellow-carded AND his history of splitting / forfeiting matches. You know what? If you don't feel like playing, don't enter. If all he wanted to play was Melee, that's fine, but don't waste all of the other participant's time by getting to GF and then giving up. By not playing the last match, that IS manipulating the bracket; if he wasn't planning on playing until the end anyway, then his not entering would have resulted in a much different end bracket. Personally, I'd take it as proof of manipulation, given his history, but that' s just me.

The point is that:

1 ) The TOs aren't doing their jobs. By not DQ'ing M2K and allowing him to play GF after 5 minutes have passed, they are diluting the importance of their own ruleset.

2 ) Players shouldn't be allowed to give up mid-bracket because it isn't fair to all of the players they either beat or lost to before that point. It's entirely fine to use the card system as a deterrent to stop people from entering a tournament without intending to finish what they start. Forfeiting part way through wastes time, is unfair to the players encountered until the forfeit, and has effects akin to full-on bracket manipulation (and can be used to the same effect).

EDIT: DMG, the rules state, and I quote:

DQ Rule: Arriving too late for a match will result in a DQ. Player(s) will have 5 minutes to show up before a loss of the first match. 5 more minutes results in a loss of the set. For doubles, both players on a team need to be present in order to play.

It doesn't matter why, it doesn't matter for how long after 10 minutes, and it doesn't matter who it is. According to the rules, if you don't show up to play before the 10 minute mark you are DQ'ed. This shows obvious favoritism towards M2K because of who he is and his status, because I assure you if this was ANY OTHER player, especially a no-name player, that player would have been instantly DQ'ed at the 10-minute mark. That's. BS. And it makes the TOs bad TOs.

 

[DRDN]

I believe a while back we were talking about banning and arent you not allowed to play a stage after its been banned period?

ally vs M2k at genesis after game 2 ally banned brinstar game 4 is on Brinstar

I missed most of the G2 Drama but didnt M2K try to give away his seed while in pools?

I dont agree with giving cards for people leaving early because then anytime a tournament runs late and people with night jobs or who go out to the club afterwords are going to be banned for something out of their control. Your basically saying if you cant commit an entire day/weekend to this game dont enter a tournament.

But he should have been Dq'd...

Spoiler

I also would have gave him a game loss for being the one who paused vs ADHD after sending him in the air

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well... yeah, that's what I'm saying. How does that not make sense? Especially at a National? If you can't invest the time, don't enter. It's not like you don't know ahead of time when the tournament is, and it's not like you aren't capable of assuming ahead of time that it's going to run late; I know I've assumed that at every tournament I've ever run / taken part in running, and it's a good assumption to make. If you have work / want to make other plans, deal with it; get the next day off of work or don't go out to the club / go out later. It's not hard.

Look, if you're going to enter a tournament, especially one with a cash prize, especially a National with a LARGE cash prize, set your priorities straight. Don't waste the venue's time if you don't know ahead of time if you can fulfill the commitment you made when you registered.

 

[DMG]

I mean he ****ing won Genesis. I dunno how that's bracket manipulation since he didn't forfeit to go to losers, didn't try to split 3 ways and screw another guy out of money, etc.

As for being a delay, I think that's fine for Grand Finals if it wasn't an excessive amount like half an hour or more. Hell, even if he was 10 minutes late goofing off playing Melee or slouching around doing nothing but griping, I'd give him a break for one of the biggest nationals to come around. I know you'd rather people abide by the rules as they are laid out 100%, but for this case unless he was REAAAAAALLY holding up the tournament, I'd let it slide. Not cause he's M2K, not cause he deserves a pass for who he is or for how successful he is, but because in that situation it's probably better to say "Alright M2K you've had some time, come back and play" and watch the tournament finish a bit later instead of blowing whistles and throwing flags and giving him a penalty and either having the tournament end there (He's DQ'd, Ally wins by default) or watching a penalized player try to play GF's.


Now, if he was delaying the tournament at an earlier stage, or had repetitive "breaks" or what not that slowed things down, then yes I would be concerned. But a guy being 10 minutes late for GRAND FINALS?? Cmon. I'd let that slide a bit, and I think you would too.

As for the "no name" example, that's happened at other tournaments/not relevant to Genesis from what I can tell. Yes it's not fair for letting M2K dwadle endlessly early rounds, while getting rid of random player xyz for getting there before M2K even does. In those cases yes I wouldn't have a bias for M2K and I'd tell his stupid butt to get here on time or get *****. BUT, that's not what happened at Genesis. Him, or anyone else, being a little tardy for Grand Finals or important set in end of Bracket I think we can cut them a little slack. Does that favor M2K over no name? I mean in a way since M2K is more likely to make it that far in bracket, yes. But it's making exceptions or cutting slack down the road that I'm fine with and agree with, not "give M2K a free pass wherever he goes".

 

[Jack Kieser]

I mean he ****ing won Genesis. I dunno how that's bracket manipulation since he didn't forfeit to go to losers, didn't try to split 3 ways and screw another guy out of money, etc.

Of course he won Genesis; he's M2K. I didn't doubt for a second that he would win if he played, but for a while, we didn't know if he WOULD play. You're letting hindsight cloud your judgement. Here's what happened, as I saw / heard it on the live stream:

1 ) It's time to play GF. M2K is called. No one can find him.
2 ) They find M2K. He's playing Melee. He tells everyone "I don't feel like playing Brawl anymore. I'm not playing GF."
3 ) TOs / players spend 5-8 minutes trying to convince M2K that he should play GF. He doesn't want to. He says he forfeits.

Now, without hindsight, do you see how it's BS that they even went through the trouble of trying to convince M2K that he should play? What other player would get that kind of treatment? What other player does get that kind of treatment? More importantly, what other player SHOULD get that kind of treatment? As soon as the words "I forfeit" came out of his mouth, he should have been DQ'ed like any other player would have been.

Face it, DMG; you're arguing that M2K should be treated differently and have special exceptions made for him because of who he is. That's not fair, it's not justified, and it's downright wrong. No player, regardless of skill, should have special exceptions made.

As for being a delay, I think that's fine for Grand Finals if it wasn't an excessive amount like half an hour or more. Hell, even if he was 10 minutes late goofing off playing Melee or slouching around doing nothing but griping, I'd give him a break for one of the biggest nationals to come around. I know you'd rather people abide by the rules as they are laid out 100%, but for this case unless he was REAAAAAALLY holding up the tournament, I'd let it slide. Not cause he's M2K, not cause he deserves a pass for who he is or for how successful he is, but because in that situation it's probably better to say "Alright M2K you've had some time, come back and play" and watch the tournament finish a bit later instead of blowing whistles and throwing flags and giving him a penalty and either having the tournament end there (He's DQ'd, Ally wins by default) or watching a penalized player try to play GF's.

I disagree. Obviously, M2K thinks he can get away with this childish **** because we treat him with kid gloves, like he's a special little snowflake. **** that. He's not a special little snowflake. Ally isn't, ADHD isn't, he isn't, no one is. Rules are rules, and every time we make exceptions like this, we're telling the entire community "if you get to be a top player, you basically get to run any tournament you want; do you want to waste the TO's time? Go for it, because you're important."

You may think "oh, come one, now you're just being a hard ***." Yes, I AM being a hard ***, because I understand the importance of precedence. I also have more respect for all of the smaller, less skilled players who enter my events than to give other players preferential treatment because of who they are or what their circumstances are.

Now, if he was delaying the tournament at an earlier stage, or had repetitive "breaks" or what not that slowed things down, then yes I would be concerned. But a guy being 10 minutes late for GRAND FINALS?? Cmon. I'd let that slide a bit, and I think you would too.

No, I wouldn't, DMG. You don't know me very well if you think I would; I'm a hard *** for rules. Rules are rules. That's final. If I was running Genesis, he'd have been DQ'ed as soon as he said "forfeit", and I would have seriously considered carding him, but what's important is that I would have done that for ANY player in his situation.

What's even more important, though, is that this entire situation shows how unwilling the TOs that make up part of the BBR-RC are to enfore their own rules. That's a problem. These guys made their special little TO club for super awesome TOs. That's fine, but we damn well better hold them to a high standard for TO'ing if that's the case. The fact that these kind of things can happen at all seriously makes me doubt the reliability of the TOs who make up the BBR-RC.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ITT: Keiser ***** the "italics" button enough to make BPC orgasm.

 

[Judo777]

ITT: Keiser ***** the "italics" button enough to make BPC orgasm.

I need to get on that Italics status Kieser speaks the truth.

 

[Jack Kieser]

ITT: Keiser ***** the "italics" button enough to make BPC orgasm.

Man, Grim, I taught BPC how to use italics. ^_-

 

[xDD-Master]

So, scroging. There is no rule against it. *sees M2K vs Wyatt*





... Really guys? We gotta do something.

And how would that rule be enforced on Rainbow Cruise for example XD? (Not talking about the ship part obv.)

Just curious ._.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, would you really need to enforce it on non-ship parts of RC? I mean, the whole problem with scrooging is that only 2 other characters can even follow MK under a stage (and even they would die easy down there); on the non-ship portions of RC, wherever MK can go, any other character can, too. It's not like it's difficult to follow MK between platforms / carpets... it's just dangerous.

I don't really see how MK being really mobile on non-ship sections of RC would be considered scrooging, since it's not like he's going anywhere any other character couldn't go to.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are the vids of this "scrooging match" up yet?