The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Conviction]

@DMG&Niddo: Okay thanks. I just wanted to know the other side of the debate so I know what to base and collect the data on.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think scrooging is a problem. If your character has projectiles, he can do something about scrooging.

 

[DMG]

Uh, what?

What can Luigi/Mario/Diddy/Wario/ZSS/Falco/Wolf/Snake/IC's/Olimar/Lucario/Dedede/etc RELIABLY do against scrooging with their projectiles?


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xxx x x x x xx Stage

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X meaning where MK will be.

What projectiles can stop a MK from being under the stage? First you have to have not only a horizontal projectile that can cover long distances, but your character has to be able to safely and accurately vary their vertical height so as to dip under stage level (while close to the edge preferably so they can recover easier) and use their projectile at an according time. THIS, all while assuming MK will not have enough time to vary how far up and down he goes while gliding under the stage, assuming he doesn't notice you on the other side of the stage trying to stop him from passing, assuming he goes under and doesn't cancel it and go back to the first edge, etc.

 

[John12346]

The only character who could conceivably hit MK out of scrooging reliably is Pit, and aiming the arrows is a *****, plus they only do like 4 damage, AND MK's still gonna make it to the other side of the stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was talking about the scrooging that does not build up ledge grabs. The one done on moving platforms

 

[san.]

Ike would be legit broken on Onett. No thanks.

 

[Deleted member]

When I think sonic and norfair, I think of speed timing out that mk at MLG columbus......

I remember watching that.

I think the MK was DJ Iskascribble.

 

[Reizilla]

Foorball =/= Smash


Since G2 didn't really enforce the DQ rule, then didn't they not REALLY use the unity ruleset? So +1 national for the resistance movement

 

[Conviction]

Ike would be legit broken on Onett. No thanks.

How ?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Foorball =/= Smash


Since G2 didn't really enforce the DQ rule, then didn't they not REALLY use the unity ruleset? So +1 national for the resistance movement

Yeah, you can't really do **** if someone agrees to use the unity rule set just to get featured and then they switch the rules last minute. The creation of yellow and red cards for TOs

 

[Player-1]

in case you didn't know, the card system is built on a case by case basis first off and the TO has to present it to the BBR:RC as well. It was to my understanding that the issue with M2K and Sade got fixed and the GF thing the TO has to call the match, it can't be just some commentator on the stream asking him to play, only the TO since none of you were there you don't really know what happened and can't really make an accurate deduction from what was heard from the stream.

 

[Ussi]

How ?

Ike has no need to recover

Ike has hax reach

Ike has wall locks

Ike can bthrow > dash attack on walk offs

Bthrow (hits wall) > bthrow > dash attack

Ike doesn't have to to recover

And whatever else San will have to say

 

[san.]

How ?

Ike can shark the bottom really easily with uair or fair.

He can 0death any character on the walls with bthrow or fthrow. Even if they get grabbed from the center, he can bthrow to walking grab anyways, or bthrow to ftilt or something due to the wall.

The stage is really small, so they would die very early. The car isn't much of an issue if they get to kill percents quickly enough. The platforms are very small, so Ike would get easy followups from an edgeslip due to the shieldpush of the aerials.

Other characters' wall gimmicks are much more avoidable/only 1 direction. The car affects those characters much more.

Walkoffs don't matter much when there's a wall on one side, and he can bthrow to dash attack you on the other side.

Also, throws combo to kill moves off wall bounce after CG percents.

 

[M@v]

Bthrow (hits wall) > bthrow > dash attack

Holy ****tttt I never thought of that. That would be hilariously ****.

 

[Conviction]

Ike has no need to recover

Ike has hax reach

Ike has wall locks

Ike can bthrow > dash attack on walk offs

Bthrow (hits wall) > bthrow > dash attack

Ike doesn't have to to recover

And whatever else San will have to say

No one has to recover lol

Ike has always had range.

The last two sound legit. When will Ike catch some one near the walk off though, it's not like Ike is super fast like Sheik or something. Just tech or wall jump off the wall.

Ike can shark the bottom really easily with uair or fair.

He can 0death any character on the walls with bthrow or fthrow. Even if they get grabbed from the center, he can bthrow to walking grab anyways, or bthrow to ftilt or something due to the wall.

The stage is really small, so they would die very early. The car isn't much of an issue if they get to kill percents quickly enough. The platforms are very small, so Ike would get easy followups from an edgeslip due to the shieldpush of the aerials.

Other characters' wall gimmicks are much more avoidable/only 1 direction. The car affects those characters much more.

Walkoffs don't matter much when there's a wall on one side, and he can bthrow to dash attack you on the other side.

Also, throws combo to kill moves off wall bounce after CG percents.

0-death? How much percent does he deal with each throw?

Tech/walljump the wall.

The stage size shouldn't matter. That's not a really good argument, I can complain that Japes's ceiling is too high. Same concept.

I really think most of this is works on paper that you are telling me San, how often would said things happen in a match?

 

[san.]

Considering Ike has one of the easiest followups to grab in the game, pretty often. Nair combos to grab at lower percents. Jab to grab at pretty much any % SDI dependent.

By tech/wall jump, you mean his kill move, right?


The fthrow CG ends around 130ish on the lighter characters if it's fully stale. Heavier characters are until 170-180ish. I am estimating since sweetspot utilt kills much earlier.

I just need to utilt when I think you're not prepared to tech, and even then, now you're at 150%+
Bouncing off the wall really won't save you.

Stage size does matter since it makes the car as positive interrupt more useless, and gives you less options for surviving.

 

[Tesh]

as DMG pointed out, Onnet is one of those stages where you might see Metaknight Nado across the entire stage nonstop and no one can punish. No one has the air and ground speed to unshield, dash, jump over a building and punish 30 frames of lag across the stage.

 

[DMG]

Or you could pick MK and tornado the **** out of that ****er, then run away from him

 

[san.]

I really think most of this is works on paper that you are telling me San, how often would said things happen in a match?

Helped me get 9th at Apex.

CG-death/really good advantage on Razer and Blue Rogue on temporary (10-30 seconds max) walls, and those are much more avoidable.

 

[hichez50]

Onett seems like a good experimental stage. What is the reasoning for the japes ban is it just over centralizing for certain characters?

 

[Conviction]

Considering Ike has one of the easiest followups to grab in the game, pretty often. Nair combos to grab at lower percents. Jab to grab at pretty much any % SDI dependent.

By tech/wall jump, you mean his kill move, right?


The fthrow CG ends around 130ish on the lighter characters if it's fully stale. Heavier characters are until 170-180ish. I am estimating since sweetspot utilt kills much earlier.

I just need to utilt when I think you're not prepared to tech, and even then, now you're at 150%+
Bouncing off the wall really won't save you.

Stage size does matter since it makes the car as positive interrupt more useless, and gives you less options for surviving.

I mean getting the grab on the ground level, when I can just camp one of the two buildings so when you do grab me all you get is your normal follow up.

I didn't think of teching the walls when he did his kill move but sure add that too. I meant when one of his throws weren't stale and it caused a wall bounce.

The CG does sound bad :-/

Not only will the person being CG'd take damage, but Ike will too, so both are closer to dying. I do agree with the person being CG'd being closer dying of course. Bur avioding the CG just goes back to what I saying about camping on one of the buildings.

@Apex comment: I see, did they know or understand the stage at all?

Overall though, I think I should just come back to the whole Onett thing when I have more than just 2-3 videos of gameplay. Especially when only Omni's vid showed viable tactics and escapes.

 

[hichez50]

Ok so the stage may over centralize on ike but will pick up ike just to play on onett when there main potentially has an advantage on onett.

 

[Ussi]

Ike not having to recover is not the same as MK or pikachu not having to recover.

 

[hichez50]

Well link, and olimarwont have to recover either. I think Olimar is the real threat on this stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Onette is a stupid stage. Can someone tell me how a character that gets chain grabbed by DDD can bring back the match if the DDD player takes the first stock and camps on the ground?

 

[san.]

Just looked at the stage. I do admit, the stage is larger than I thought, which is good. Large enough that I wouldn't say he would be broken, but probably well advantaged on almost every character. I would only worry about Olimar here since his lightness messes up a few things here.

Onett might not be that bad of a stage, but still, other stages deserve legality before this. If this is legal, why keep Corneria banned? I'd be CPing this stage all day if it was legal. Camp the sides and I can just fair spam you. Ike isn't DDD, can't be camped like that that easily.

Fthrow deals around 6%. It stales to 5% and 4% later on. It's much faster than DDD's dthrow. You canThere's also the car that would help give another easy 30%.


When Ike fthrows someone on the left side of the right house, they get stuck under the roof, allowing him to even fthrow CG Olimar who would usually slide up out of it.

One would also think the small platform will somewhat hinder CGs on the left part of the middle side, but only for super light characters after fthrow has been staled at like 60%.

 

[Conviction]

Jebus, read the last 3 pages. (bar the Genesis stuff)

@Ussi: No one has to recover...what's your point? LOL

@San: That's all I'm arguing for, it's viability as a legit CP. If this stage gets in, it will open doorways for other stages. I did mention in m first post about it being a strong CP for certain characters. Let me get my quote.

 

[hichez50]

@SAN coneria is banned because of the blast zones mainly. Everybody's uptilt can kill at 60% on that stage. Then don't forget that huge wall on the stage. That stage is saying "DDD love me".

 

[san.]

I can't see many characters as a problem on Onett except for Ike. Olimar is stronger I suppose, but nothing too bad. DDD can be camped/dodged.

Camping doesn't seem to be OP on Onett, either.


@Hichez

Are you saying small blastzones are bannable for a stage?

Also, Onett has multiple static walls, and Corneria only has one. I guess you can say the camping spot on Corneria is better/the main reason.

 

[Overswarm]

@SAN coneria is banned because of the blast zones mainly. Everybody's uptilt can kill at 60% on that stage. Then don't forget that huge wall on the stage. That stage is saying "DDD love me".

*facepalm*


Ike's chain throw could be more damaging than D3's on this stage; I haven't tested it, but I know there is no d-tilt or jab lock that can do much damage on the stage. Someone should test Ike's f-throw on the walls and see how much damage it does assuming that Ike grabs you as soon as the alarm goes off.

 

[Conviction]

Also to add on to what I was saying earlier.

Maybe you can use the platforms connected to main building as a frame trap when they fall and become inactive for a little. This includes GIMR's metagame minute tactic, where you hit an opponent while they are shielding and they fall off the platform and go into a tumble animation where they can not input anything but slight DI.

So when right before the platforms go inactive you put your opponent in shield stun, the platforms go inactive and then you have successfully put your opponent into that tumble animation. (All ending lag from moves disappear when you slide off a platform. So in this case instead of sliding, the platforms just go inactive.) So for example I'll use Fox's Usmash. The platforms are about to go inactive, my opponent is shielding, I Usmash them putting them into hitstun. They hit the tumble animation and my Usmash has been cancelled. I can proceed to punish my opponent with any aerial.

This stage also puts more depth into the game where I kind of did it, see where I Nair'd him into the building then he failed to tech and then Shine'd him back into to building. The stage's buildings put into a new sense to the tech chase. Forcing your opponent to bounce off the wall, they will either: Fail the tech, tech the building, or wall jump tech the building. I felt that was cool because it was like tech chase only from an off wall perspective.

I believe this stage will be a strong/good CP for characters that excel in vertical kills, such as Snake, Fox, King DDD, etc. and will probably be a wise choice to ban if you rely on horizontal kills. Diddy, Mario, Falco, etc.

There you go San.

Idk about Corneria...maybe you can just make sure DDD is facing the opposite way of the wall? LOL, idk. Might go test some stuff on that stage at a later time. I'm pretty sure Corneria can be made legal though.

@OS: Pretty sure San can tell us something in the next 5 mins or so.

 

[hichez50]

@Hichez

Are you saying small blastzones are bannable for a stage?

Also, Onett has multiple static walls, and Corneria only has one. I guess you can say the camping spot on Corneria is better/the main reason.

What do you mean by static walls? I am saying that because of the blastzone and the stage elements such as the wall and the laser spot makes it that characters such as DDD and ike will become the backbone of this stage. I know the point of a CP is to allow for advantages and disadvantages but Corneria has to many advantages/ disadvantages for some characters. Also the laser is random and I have seen people die because of this.

 

[san.]

I got 63% from a bthrow to fthrow string before the truck hit and gave 30% to achieve 93%.

When I tried it again, at the end, I bthrow into the car, then fullhop fair for 111%.

 

[BSP]

What's wrong with Japes at this point?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Overswarm, I just watched your Onett discussion video. That DDD was terrible. At 2:00, U-tilt after that wall infinite would have killed you like at 130% but instead he decided to continue chain grabbing you for some reason.

 

[Overswarm]

Corneria was made illegal, and rightly so, because it was a stage that encouraged runaway camping that guaranteed a player was going to take 30% or more when approaching their opponent.

Every game on that stage had two phases:

1) Try to catch the player running away who had higher % until they went down below the fin

2) Cautiously approach the player who was hiding under the fin and hope you don't get comboed against the wall

On loop, forever. Whoever got the originally lead generally won because it was incredibly easy to combo off the wall or get infinites, and MK ruined the stage even more with low % shuttleloop kills (off the top OR off the side). Ness/Lucas healing and stalling shenanigans also were frustrating to see.

 

[Overswarm]

Overswarm, I just watched your Onett discussion video. That DDD was terrible. At 2:00, U-tilt after that wall infinite would have killed you like at 130% but instead he decided to continue chain grabbing you for some reason.

What?

We weren't playing a game, Jebus. We were testing how Onett worked.

 

[Overswarm]

I got 63% from a bthrow to fthrow string before the truck hit and gave 30% to achieve 93%.

When I tried it again, at the end, I bthrow into the car, then fullhop fair for 111%.

This is from grabbing the moment the car signal appears?

 

[Conviction]

What do you mean by static walls? I am saying that because of the blastzone and the stage elements such as the wall and the laser spot makes it that characters such as DDD and ike will become the backbone of this stage. I know the point of a CP is to allow for advantages and disadvantages but Corneria has to many advantages/ disadvantages for some characters. Also the laser is random and I have seen people die because of this.

Is the laser actually random? It seems like it's always a timer to me, and if you pass by it after it charges up it always shoots.

Static walls are walls that always stay there.

Everyone will kill earlier on Corneria.

I don't think DDD can wall infinite characters he can't CG. (Not sure)

As for Ike I'll just leave that to San.

I got 63% from a bthrow to fthrow string before the truck hit and gave 30% to achieve 93%.

When I tried it again, at the end, I bthrow into the car, then fullhop fair for 111%.

Is it possible to DI away after being hit by the car? Or Airdodge (probably will lead to a frametrap though)

@Jebus: If you have audio to the vid you would have been obvious to tell that wasn't a real match if the way it was being played wasn't...

@OS: MK breaks Corneria more than other characters? Well damn.

 

[san.]

This was after the car went by.

If the car signal appears right when I grab, I can get 3 fthrows, 1 bthrow into the car, into a fair (or most aerials I guess)

That was 66% for only having like 4 seconds to do anything.