The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Yikarur]

I don't think it's special treatment, I wouldn't matter what Allys opponent was. They would everyone ask to play for GFs, it's GFs of GENESIS, of course they try to convince him to play and they would try to convince everyone who would be at that point because it's GF OF GENESIS.

and it's not like he delayed the tournament, the DQ exists for mid tournament matches so they don't delay the entire bracket, but this was grand finals, and the rule shouldn't apply there at all.

 

[Jack Kieser]

@BPC: If it was at Genesis, it wouldn't surprise me; Chibo was ripping the LS footage really efficiently (he usually had matches up within 10-15 minutes of it being played). Check his YouTube account.

EDIT:

I don't think it's special treatment, I wouldn't matter what Allys opponent was. They would everyone ask to play for GFs, it's GFs of GENESIS, of course they try to convince him to play and they would try to convince everyone who would be at that point because it's GF OF GENESIS.

I have a feeling this is going to come down to a difference in perspective, but what I'm arguing is that rules shouldn't be suspended just because *insert any reason here* unless the rules were written like that before the tournament started. Look, I know GF is important. If M2K didn't want to play, there were plenty of people in the chain of succession who would have been plenty happy to take his place. It's not like GF wouldn't have happened at all. What that line of thinking allows is for players to, essentially, know ahead of time that, once you get far enough, the tournament run off your schedule, not the other way around.

After all, GF is important, but so is WF and LF. And what about Winner's / Loser's semis? Aren't they pretty hype usually, too? Where does it end? If you're selectively enforcing rules because of situational stuff, you aren't enforcing rules well.

and it's not like he delayed the tournament, the DQ exists for mid tournament matches so they don't delay the entire bracket, but this was grand finals, and the rule shouldn't apply there at all.

Well, if that's the case, then I expect to see lively discussion in this thread as to why that should be the case and an addendum to Unity Ruleset 1.4 stating as part of the DQ rule that the entire rule is always null during GF.

Obviously that won't happen. Because it shouldn't.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's up, but virtually unwatchable. But it brings up an interesting point... Is scrooging broken anywhere other than Smashville?

 

[Jack Kieser]

Final Destination? Like that stage doesn't have enough problems...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Look, this whole DQ issue is stupid.

TOs always have the final say, even if it contradicts the rule-set. End of discussion. The choice the TO made was very obviously the correct choice, both at the time and in hind-sight.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Look, this whole DQ issue is stupid.

TOs always have the final say, even if it contradicts the rule-set. End of discussion. The choice the TO made was very obviously the correct choice, both at the time and in hind-sight.

(Emphasis added)

I'm sorry, Grim, but that just opens up all sorts of room for shenanigans. Are you seriously arguing that TOs shouldn't be held to a high standard of uniformly applying their own rules during an event? Especially in cases of bias? And super especially in the cases of our most important events / our most powerful TOs?

That, in essence, players shouldn't expect quality TO'ing from the people they trust to run their events (and give money to)? That can't be right. We expected members of the BBR to be smart, educated, knowledgeable, skilled people. We should expect member of the BBR-RC to be exceptional TOs, and you can't be an exceptional TO whilst unfairly applying your own rules (or at least, having the power to do so).

I understand that you may think I'm complaining about nothing, but I assure you, especially in light of the Yellow / Red Card addition to the Unity Ruleset, this is an issue that is better dealt with now, rather than later.

 

[DMG]

"But then why make a rule about it if TO discretion reigns supreme?"

Is the question that someone will ask after you say that.


As for scrooging, Brinstar is the only comparable since other stages that allow it are temporary (FD does allow it permanently, but it's not as strong there due to lack of options from coming up, like going to a platform instead of the main stage) Battlefield maybe as well

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Players should expect quality TO'ing, yes.

And going against the rule-set is usually a bad thing, that's why it doesn't happen often.

HOWEVER, players should attend tournaments with the knowledge that the TO is almighty and can override rules for whatever reason they want. These aren't official, sanctioned gatherings.

Like I said: The TO made a good choice in choosing not to DQ M2K straight away, and you are the only one complaining about it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Wait, Genesis wasn't an official, sanctioned gathering? I'm... I'm pretty sure it was as official as a BBR-RC event can get.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wait, Genesis wasn't an official, sanctioned gathering? I'm... I'm pretty sure it was as official as a BBR-RC event can get.

And there is your problem. I didn't see Nintendo's participation at all.

This discussion already happened after the Pound 5 incident, the tourney wasn't official so nothing can be done.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, duh, not a Nintendo-sanctioned event. But, we don't give Nintendo any sway in our community. It was a BBR-RC-sanctioned event, and we do give them authority. Does that not count for anything? Because, I would assume it counts for something to the members of the BBR-RC, and they're still trying to convince people that they're necessary, aren't they? It's kind of stupid for them to say, in one breath, that their Unity Ruleset is super-important, yet isn't important enough to enforce uniformly.

That's... kind of an important contradiction.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Like, BBR-RC needs to state which tournaments are official and which are not? :/

 

[ElDominio]

Just because TWiNK is viewing this thread and Tesh and him had a talk about Norfair

I'm his Sonic main friend
Norfair makes me want to remove my intestines every second I play VS. Toon Link. As in, I nearly barfed a liver when playing him today.

Sonic's best options for avoiding him are either up or under, and under goes away pretty quick. Then the stupid wall makes sure you have to eat a few bombs to stay alive.

TL's camp game in Norfair marginally beats out Sonic's keep away.

I say if they legalize Norfair, they should also legalize Luigi's Mansion.
If only just to smite TWiNK.

 

[DMG]

I mean if we're throwing away the entire ruleset because we didn't DQ a guy for being a little late for GF's, I mean I guess that's such an egregious move on the TO's part that it completely invalidates going by the ruleset.

 

[John12346]

Recommended fix: Double all times allotted by the DQ rule, give no second chances from now to the end of time

Second recommended fix: Abolish the DQ rule, leave disqualifications at the discretion of the TO in charge

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

As for scrooging, Brinstar is the only comparable since other stages that allow it are temporary (FD does allow it permanently, but it's not as strong there due to lack of options from coming up, like going to a platform instead of the main stage) Battlefield maybe as well

...Really? You can't scrooge on FD or BF without opening yourself up for punishment or grabbing the ledge. I think this is a pretty important thing to note; i.e. that SV is the only stage where scrooging is "too good".

 

[John12346]

There's also Frigate's second phase... remember Tesh's Metagay Minute.

Scrooging is not broken on any stage that isn't Smashville, though, as long as there's a LGL in place. Although... it might be worth it to test how quickly MK's ledgegrabs rack up while scrooging, because obviously the count would go up much more slowly than if MK was planking...

 

[Jack Kieser]

@ DMG:

1 ) It's not just that M2K was a "little late". It's partially that he flat-out refused to play, and people felt it necessary to beg him to play.

2 ) M2K didn't even get a slap on the wrist. By all accounts, he should have at least lost his first match of the set, as per the rules.

3 ) Politically, yeah, it's like invalidating the entire ruleset. After all, if that rule isn't important enough to enforce, what about this other rule? Or another one? What about in situation X or Y? And none of that "politics doesn't matter" garbage; again, the BBR-RC is fighting a battle with public opinion for relevancy. It makes a lot of difference to them (even if it doesn't to you), in the grand scheme.

@ John#'s: Honestly, I would take either of those, as long as it's applied uniformly and without exception.

 

[WindMajor]

Just because TWiNK is viewing this thread and Tesh and him had a talk about Norfair

I'm his Sonic main friend
Norfair makes me want to remove my intestines every second I play VS. Toon Link. As in, I nearly barfed a liver when playing him today.

Sonic's best options for avoiding him are either up or under, and under goes away pretty quick. Then the stupid wall makes sure you have to eat a few bombs to stay alive.

TL's camp game in Norfair marginally beats out Sonic's keep away.

I say if they legalize Norfair, they should also legalize Luigi's Mansion.
If only just to smite TWiNK.

I think that at this point, I know how to play this stage better than anyone on SWF, lol. It could be just that.

Oh and you were in the lead for the majority of the match. You were camping me. I dunno why you're complaining. >_>


I liked this line though:

TL's camp game in Norfair marginally beats out Sonic's keep away.

Sonic isn't fast enough to run away from TL's projectiles. I can tear this line apart soooooo bad!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If the rule is "If you're 5 minutes late, you are DQ'd", M2K should have been DQ'd. It does not matter that it's GF, or that it's M2K, or that the crowd would rather have a late set than no set, or anything.

Was he over 5 minutes late? If yes, he should have been DQ'd, there is no other option if the TO is actually following the recommended ruleset. No exceptions.

Now, if the TO was in fact claiming to follow the Unity Ruleset (had their tournament pinned and everything) and failed to DQ M2K, the TO should be penalized as well. No pinning of their next big tournament, even if it follows the Unity Ruleset. If it was pinned, that means the TO agreed to follow all rules. That includes DQing rules. They failed to do so.

On the other hand, if it wasn't a pinned tournament, all of this means nothing. But by the sounds of things it was pinned.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like to think of it like jaywalking and other similar laws.

The cops really don't care if you jaywalk, UNLESS it causes an issue of some sort, then they can use the law as an excuse to nab you.

Similarly, the DQ rule should be at the discretion of the TO.

 

[Tesh]

I'm 100% certain that M2K wasn't the only one that went over 5 minutes after his match was supposed to start.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

And there is your problem. I didn't see Nintendo's participation at all.

This discussion already happened after the Pound 5 incident, the tourney wasn't official so nothing can be done.

Do you honestly think Nintendo cares about the competitive smash community? If anything I would say that this was a Sabre Gaming sanctioned tournament due them sponsoring it.

 

[Ussi]

My first thought at M2Q's "I don't want to play brawl anymore"

Why are you throwing away money?

My 2nd thought... Whatever happened was gonna end up with someone getting the short end of the stick.

IF M2Q got dq'd, and all the winnings were shifted down 1 place, what would happen at 5th 7th 9th and 13th?

Or would the winnings be spilt evenly into 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc?

What about those who lost to m2q? They probably would have gotten farther maybe if they didn't have to play him.. And they basically could have been deprived money just because m2k went all the to GF just to forfeit and take no money.

I think just convincing him to play out GF would have been better.... it would such a dumb moment (it already is, our top player not wanting to play anymore)




MK is sucking the fun out of the game.

 

[xDD-Master]

Wait, the DQing rule only let you lose the set, not the entire tournament, doesnt it?

M2K = 2nd Place in that case then.

 

[Ussi]

People were going on in the stream chat that M2K should just have not gotten any winnings


Speaking on a spectator point of view, its like watching the superbowl and one team doesn't feel like playing football anymore so they just forfeit.

The fans would boo because THEY WANT TO SEE FOOTBALL at its finest.

Probably why M2K was convinced to play out GF. Probably would have been a lot of drama if he didn't. (as if there isn't enough now)

 

[DRDN]

To give him no winnings would be because of who he is. M2K seems to be causing problems at almost every tourney he goes to. In reality LF should have been to seperate 1st from 3rd because M2K already claimed 2nd

 

[san.]

I played Kingtoon's TL (top 5 TL) on Norfair, and it wasn't bad at all.

I could see TL having pretty nice advantages, but really that's it. Nothing broken. It's not a static stage, so the TL can't always space the same way because of the hazards. He has to camp in a versatile fashion to be successful on the stage. It's easier for the hazards to screw up the camper than the approacher, imo. You can also shark landings, and have many more vertical mobility options due to the existence of those side platforms.

 

[Ussi]

Well perhaps Sonic vs TL sucks on norfair while Ike vs TL doesn't

It IS character specific I would say. But one character getting destroyed by another on a stage doesn't really mean much since there are other situations where this happens

 

[san.]

Sonic in general is pretty great on Norfair.

I guess it's an isolated case since TL and Sonic attempt to do the same thing, and it clashes?

 

[M@v]

When I think sonic and norfair, I think of speed timing out that mk at MLG columbus......

 

[Ussi]

Sonic in general is pretty great on Norfair.

I guess it's an isolated case since TL and Sonic attempt to do the same thing, and it clashes?

Yes i was speaking in a isolated case.

Its just like Falco and Pikachu loving FD, but then IC comes along and they cry.

Granted everyone probably doesn't want to fight IC on FD, but some people more than others.

 

[Conviction]

Quick question. Is there a really an anti-Onett base? and how many people support/don't mind it's conclusion.

I think Noirfair and Onett can make it both into the next update.

 

[Blacknight99923]

dude unity ruleset is so amazing.


It lets us beat japanese players by letting us punish their tornado landings with less than a second left when they started nado before the acid came up.

Rain be mad

 

[DMG]

the **** Onett?

No. Get the **** out.

 

[Conviction]

the **** Onett?

No. Get the **** out.

and your complaints are?

 

[WindMajor]

San hit everything about Norfair RIGHT on the money.

 

[DMG]

Pick a character. Stand in 1 portion of the stage. Have MK tornado you, and move to another part.

Can your character catch him? 90% of the cast cannot.

Or pick a mobile character who can camp the left side. G&W/Marth/MK are hell to approach against on the left side with the edge there.

The problem with the stage definitely isn't Dedede, that's that old school ignorant mentality. But banning it was the right move when you look at how easy a lot of MU's get if you run away. Catching Wario on this stage is flat out bull**** for a good list of strong characters, same with trying to get MK or G&W. Even if there was some semblance of balance between character CP's there, it would be focused on timing out the other guy or finding a prominent character that counters the character you are trying to time out with, BY timing them out better.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Quick question. Is there a really an anti-Onett base? and how many people support/don't mind it's conclusion.

I think Noirfair and Onett can make it both into the next update.

JJ, GG, Norfair, and Pirate Ship all need to be in before Onett. I'd also favor PTAD before Onett.

Yes, I know the cars are there, but I really don't like the idea of playing on any stage with a permanent walk-off, even with stuff to interrupt it and the walk-off not being full stage. Yes, you can just wait for the car, but I still don't like it.

I understand the arguments behind it, they aren't crazy or anything, but still. Permanent walk-off = auto ban in my mind.

 

[DMG]

Permanent Walkoffs and Wallas aren't a problem for Onett. The real problem is that the multi layered/platformed/ground breaking terrain heavily favors certain characters to the point of not only hard MU's, but physically impossible to win MU's if played well. Because there are too many "safe" zones to go to if the other character is in XYZ position, even if they are running as hard as possible to catch you.

Out of all those you listed, Pirate Ship has the best chance of getting on. Everything else has static abuseable ****. Although GG's isn't too bad IF you have lgl and scrooging rule, cause **** the stage otherwise MK and G&W will hard dominate it without those rules in play and it's obvious to see that.

Japes is a bit iffy...