The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[WindMajor]

Too far into it to back out now, so I'm going through with it. I still got a bunch of write-ups to do though.

 

[Chef Fox]

*Ehem*
Is the use of handicap permitted with this ruleset? Can either player intentionally give themselves starting damage percent at the beginning of each stock or not? It is not clearly defined in v1.3 of the Unity Ruleset from what I can tell.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Use of handicap is not permissable.

 

[Cassio]

OS's posts the last page or two are so painful to read. Filled with so many opinions and no decent premises to the point where theres no point reading them unless you already agree with him.

 

[Overswarm]

OS, you are fighting with the wrong person of all the people in the BRC.

I LOVE NORFAIR

I LOVE PICTOCHAT

I LOVE GREEN GREENS

I think Japes is OK.

I LOVE DISTANT PLANET

I think PTAD is OK.

It's not just me man...

You enable it, making you no better.

did literally every ROB main time someone out at mlg besides me
**** y'all
stop camping!

Mister Eric had one (lost), Chibo had 4 (3 losses, 1 win), and I think there was one more but I can't recall off the top of my head who that was. Kiraflax, I think, don't remember if he lost or won.

OS's posts the last page or two are so painful to read. Filled with so many opinions and no decent premises to the point where theres no point reading them unless you already agree with him.

It's so easy to be dismissive, yet not specific.

 

[CT Chia]

Was a really good post by you OS, I wish I had noticed it sooner, I don't have this thread on my subscribes, I just check it once a day or every other day most of the time.

Hmmm... so many things to address...

First I would like to say, lmao at me being involved in more time outs than any other Brawler in the MLG 2010 season! I should get a medal of some sorts. Now that's an accomplishment

Now I will bring up the reasoning for each time out, since you seem to suggest that they could be just the source of the player... me!

Me vs Fizzle, ROB vs DDD

This was attributed to the matchup. DDD is largely regarded as ROB's worst matchup, and it has to be played with the utmost precision and caution. ROB has to put an INSANE amount of work in to get damage, and even more for a kill. If he slips up just once, he's CG'd to the ledge, tons of damage racked up, then either back thrown for more damage, or thrown off stage then kept at bay. Different situations call for different options based on percent. At MLG, the LGL was very low for all characters. Every time I got some of a percent lead, I was forced to approach more and DDD can literally shield and grab punish any option ROB has, and when he does, ROB is put right back at the ledge. Every time that happen not do I normally lose my percent lead, but it forces me to grab the ledge at least once, if not more if DDD would stay there to wall me from getting back on. Fizzle played a very campy, albeit smart game. Whenever he forced me to the ledge, he would go back and wait on the other side of the stage, taunt (not literally) me with his over B, and punish an approach and force me back to the ledge. I had the percent lead many times throughout the match, but I had to keep approaching a terrible situation (instead of staying comfortably on the ledge in the matchup) because I would otherwise hit the LGL in the end. In the end, Fizzle won with the % lead.

Me vs Fizzle, ROB vs MK

I CP'd Brinstar to either give me the best stage for ROB vs DDD, or to force out a different character. I knew he seconded MK, and was hoping he would switch - he did. Problem is, I got scrooged, literally. That's how that time out occurred.

These two time outs were attributed partially to the matchup and partially to the other player. I did not mean for either to go to time.

Me vs Allied, ROB vs Wario

I never tried to time him out. I don't think Allied tried to time me out? He did play VERY campy basically just staying safe on the platforms the entire time, but since I generally had a good % lead the entire game, I didn't really mind it. When the match ended and time happened, we both said gg's, and neither of us assumed that I was even close to 35 LGs. Someone from the crowd yelled out to check, and the ref made me, so I did, and it turns out I was 2 over to an extreme surprise to us both.

Me vs Reflex, ROB vs PT

This I can somewhat take the blame for lol. Of course some things such as the match being on Stadium helped, with just stalling on transformations, I played the matchup the way that makes PT bad, I abused the stamina aspect of the character. Play aggro at low %s, then camped a lot starting at mid percents so he literally had no good way to kill me. This was definitely on me, but playing it because of the matchup. Not as much the stage or anything else in particular.

Oh and I might as well comment on Mr. Eric vs GIMR, which went to time. COMPLETELY not Mr. Erics fault lol. GIMR did all he could to camp/plank whatever it may be, and timed him out with Game and Watch using EXACTLY 35 ledge grabs lol. Was this the only time that happened in MLG?

All us ROB mains just got bullied up on :/



Now you ask me to collect data on Japes. I completely agree with you! In fact, a while ago - I'm talking 2+ years, I had let Norfair and Japes be legal at most of my biweekly tournaments for testing purposes as I observed the matches. I did not take specific notes and data on all of them, but personally spectated each and everyone one. The purpose of this was to determine their legality for CoT4, and I ended up keeping both of them legal.

Now as for my thoughts on Japes earlier in the thread. Those are more or less my personal thoughts. They coincide with some others, but it's not like the end all word for why it's not legal in Unity. Japes was banned at the very start of Unity, and I was not one of the original members. One of the original members would know best for why it was not banned at the start. Once a stage is banned, it is certainly tougher to work on the hurdle of making it legal again, since it's harder to now get data for it. Know that the BBR-RC is working on solving this issue, but I'm not sure if I can really comment on it now since we are still in the planning stages.



Now you bring up that timing out is perfectly legitimate way to play. I agree with this. It's a win condition, and a reachable goal by many players. However, as a Tournament Organizer (or well, Organizers if you count everyone in the BBR-RC as a whole), while we are working on making the game as suitable as possible for competitive play, we also have to worry about tournament operation. By nature, Japes is campier and longer playing than any other stage currently legal in my opinion. I do not have the specific data to back this up as already mentioned, but it is appropriate to use some logic looking at the stage layout to come to this opinion. Two tiny platforms on both sides raised up leads for a very king of the hill style game play, which basically has a player in control playing a complete defensive game with the other player trying to break through. This seems appropriate in a normal scenario, after stage control is a big aspect of Brawl. However some of this is changed here. Because of the size and raised element of the platform, this eliminates almost all ground approaches to breaking onto the platforms, limiting the offense further.

Not only is the offense limited, but the defense is so incredibly boosted here that they are given a plethora of escape options. They can escape to one of 3 near ledges (already a strong aspect of Brawl). From there, they can either just go back to the main stage, shark the character who finally broke onto the platform, or if on the right side, take the water and be on the other platform away from the opponent instantly. This stage is so incredibly beneficial to someone in a defensive position (aka, person with the percent advantage), that the nature of battles on this stage will be long and drawn out.

Games played on a map that has battles designed to be long and drawn out are not appropriate imo. Even though timing out is a legitimate way to win (and hey, it can happen on any stage), but when a single stage can incredibly aid to it - something can be done. This leads to less "exciting" matches, which isn't as attractive to stream viewers and spectators (important for drawing in an outside audience, ESPECIALLY in terms of MLG - brought up since you referenced MLG a lot in your big post), and it leads to a longer matches overall which impacts tournament operation. Notice how both of these problems yielded from the stage don't have to do with the competitive of Smash, it's the outside problems that I've alluded to and somewhat referenced in all of my posts prior to this.

We have a timer in Brawl, it's 8 minutes. Think of it as a back up, since if there was no timer games could theoretically be endless. When calculating metrics for tournaments, it's appropriate to use 24 minutes per set, the maximum time it could possibly be. Of course sets almost never go this long, but with the average time being a lot less, the time is compensated for time in striking, banning, locating players for a set, etc. Personally, I would like to see the timer shortened in Brawl, but I don't think many people are on my side with this. Every time I see suggestions for a longer timer it makes me cringe.

Now with that in mind, the average match time is far less than 8 minutes. However allowing a stage that has a average match length that is much longer than any other stage - then our average match time is increased from what it currently is, which is not good for running tournaments. Even if metrics are planned at a near max time of 24 minutes, any time saved is incredibly beneficial, and allows players to leave earlier, run side events, etc. Now I understand that collecting data for this would be INCREDIBLY beneficial, because then we could find the average match time on all stages, and compare them to the average time on Japes to support my statements. Since we don't have data for Japes however, I am using the logic explained above as a replacement... for now. As I said the BBR-RC is working on a way to collect data for things otherwise seen as banned and such, which I hope to be able to talk about/unveil in the near future. You'll have to take my word on that for now unfortunately, nothing else I can do about that.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

OS, I can't help it if people don't see things my way...if I like the stage and I back up my reasonings, people can just go "But X Y and Z" and even if I answer them they "want to see it actually happen". **** is annoying.

@Chibo the original members didn't decide on the stagelist...that was just AZ. We had to agree on the stagelist at first, which is pretty much what happened.

 

[Overswarm]

Now you ask me to collect data on Japes. I completely agree with you! In fact, a while ago - I'm talking 2+ years, I had let Norfair and Japes be legal at most of my biweekly tournaments for testing purposes as I observed the matches. I did not take specific notes and data on all of them, but personally spectated each and everyone one. The purpose of this was to determine their legality for CoT4, and I ended up keeping both of them legal.

Your observations are now useless and limited; they can only tell you what to look for in the future, and cannot help anyone make educated decisions because they're just your own personal opinion.

Now as for my thoughts on Japes earlier in the thread. Those are more or less my personal thoughts.

Like that. :B

They coincide with some others, but it's not like the end all word for why it's not legal in Unity. Japes was banned at the very start of Unity, and I was not one of the original members. One of the original members would know best for why it was not banned at the start. Once a stage is banned, it is certainly tougher to work on the hurdle of making it legal again, since it's harder to now get data for it. Know that the BBR-RC is working on solving this issue, but I'm not sure if I can really comment on it now since we are still in the planning stages.

It won't be legal. Your ruleset was designed to stay the same or shrink, not grow. The only way you can help make the ruleset is if you already agreed to use the ruleset as it is. If you can run a tournament with the ruleset, you must not think it is that bad, so you're willing to be their patsy. That's how it goes.

Now you bring up that timing out is perfectly legitimate way to play. I agree with this. It's a win condition, and a reachable goal by many players. However, as a Tournament Organizer (or well, Organizers if you count everyone in the BBR-RC as a whole), while we are working on making the game as suitable as possible for competitive play, we also have to worry about tournament operation. By nature, Japes is campier and longer playing than any other stage currently legal in my opinion. I do not have the specific data to back this up as already mentioned, but it is appropriate to use some logic looking at the stage layout to come to this opinion. Two tiny platforms on both sides raised up leads for a very king of the hill style game play, which basically has a player in control playing a complete defensive game with the other player trying to break through. This seems appropriate in a normal scenario, after stage control is a big aspect of Brawl. However some of this is changed here. Because of the size and raised element of the platform, this eliminates almost all ground approaches to breaking onto the platforms, limiting the offense further.

If you don't have the data, you are sunk. You're guessing. No amount of bull****ting and "well, logically, it seems obvious to me that..." will work. You're just saying "I KNOW BEST AND KNOW BETTER THAN NUMBERS".

Furthermore, you haven't collected data on the other stages. Pokemon Stadium 1 gives MORE timeouts than any other stage; 3% more than the average. Is PS1 able to be banned?

And, to top it all off, the idea that "We have an 8 minute timer, but Japes takes more of the 8 minute timer, so that makes tournaments slower, so we should ban Japes" is about as ill advised as you can get. If you can't run your tournament effectively because someone is using time you've given them, the solution isn't to remove stages and hope for the best. It's to either

A) speed up your tournament with efficiency by the TO and players (DQs all day!),
B) get more TVs
C) Lower the time limit so people are forced to have 3 to 6 minutes less per set total

Banning Japes doesn't solve the problem in any way. You're cherry picking because you'd prefer Japes banned over a stage like PS1; it's a kneejerk reaction that just makes you look dumb.

Not only is the offense limited, but the defense is so incredibly boosted here that they are given a plethora of escape options. They can escape to one of 3 near ledges (already a strong aspect of Brawl). From there, they can either just go back to the main stage, shark the character who finally broke onto the platform, or if on the right side, take the water and be on the other platform away from the opponent instantly. This stage is so incredibly beneficial to someone in a defensive position (aka, person with the percent advantage), that the nature of battles on this stage will be long and drawn out.

Every two minutes PS1 gives you a stage with an easily campable location that can result in an infinite or an impossible approach or an easy circle camping location.

why u no ban PS1?

Games played on a map that has battles designed to be long and drawn out are not appropriate imo.

Well too bad broski, because your opinion isn't worth the spit in your mouth.

You have 8 minutes.

You can use that 8 minutes however you damn well please.

You got a problem with long, drawn out games? Then for one, you have a problem with Brawl, and two, lower the freaking timer.


There's a study for you to do. Have a tournament with a 6 minute timer only. See how many timeouts there are, see how long the actual tournaments last. Collect data on TVs, time between sets, etc., and see how it goes.

But that'd take effort and writing things down.

Even though timing out is a legitimate way to win (and hey, it can happen on any stage), but when a single stage can incredibly aid to it - something can be done.

Yeah, you can lower the ****ing timer if 8 minutes is too long. Or you can, ya know, ban multiple stages arbitrarily even though in this same damn sentence you say "hey, it can happen ON ANY STAGE".

Here's a quick question for you Chibo. Which have you seen more lame camping on, Smashville or Jungle Japes?

It's Smashville. Don't lie.

This leads to less "exciting" matches, which isn't as attractive to stream viewers and spectators (important for drawing in an outside audience, ESPECIALLY in terms of MLG - brought up since you referenced MLG a lot in your big post), and it leads to a longer matches overall which impacts tournament operation. Notice how both of these problems yielded from the stage don't have to do with the competitive of Smash, it's the outside problems that I've alluded to and somewhat referenced in all of my posts prior to this.

Again, I don't care.

"stream viewers and spectators"? Who cares? MLG can pull stuff like this. I told them that an LGL wasn't needed competitively, but could be necessary if they wanted to keep their stream entertaining. It's a business for them. It isn't for us.

THERE WILL BE NO THIRD PARTY HELPING THE SMASH COMMUNITY. We are on our own. Maybe when smash 4 comes out we'll get another shot at MLG, but there won't be anything like it for the rest of Brawl.

Adding rules so that the people not playing the game will enjoy it more is... subjective to say the least. If we were so concerned with that we'd forced everyone to play iron man matches or we'd ban MK.

And again with tournament operation, just be a better TO or lower the timer. That's it. Banning one stage won't solve your problem because the end problem is that some games take the full 8 minutes. Lower the timer.

We have a timer in Brawl, it's 8 minutes. Think of it as a back up, since if there was no timer games could theoretically be endless. When calculating metrics for tournaments, it's appropriate to use 24 minutes per set, the maximum time it could possibly be. Of course sets almost never go this long, but with the average time being a lot less, the time is compensated for time in striking, banning, locating players for a set, etc. Personally, I would like to see the timer shortened in Brawl, but I don't think many people are on my side with this. Every time I see suggestions for a longer timer it makes me cringe.

Well looks like you should collect some data on that then.

What IS the average time for a set? If the max is 24 minutes, how long is the average? Five minutes? 10? What percentage of the full set time is generally used?

If you can figure out that the average amount of time used in a set is 16 minutes for three game sets and 12 for two game sets (random numbers pulled out of the air), that's 66% of the maximum for sets of 3 and 50% for sets of two. Knowing those two numbers would be incredibly helpful, because then you can say "well, it takes about 5 minutes per match in sets of three on average, so we can lower the timer to 6 minutes and have minimal timeouts. The lower timer will probably encourage timeouts because they'll be easier so we'll have that initial boost, but statistically speaking it should be fine"

Then you can study that. You might find timeouts drastically increase with a lower timer because they're easier, but maybe sets on average end much faster because most players feel threatened by having less time; they don't want 30 seconds remaining on the clock at the end. After players get acclimated to it, maybe you'd find that timeouts become a more aggressive strategy, but it's okay because the average set length lowers to 4 minutes per game in a 3 game set instead of the 5 it was before.

You can learn so much just by putting in a tiiiiiiiny bit of effort.

But if you're not going to put in that effort, you shut the hell up and let other people run their tournaments how they please, and don't you dare tell someone you know what you're talking about when all you've done is haphazardly watched a few matches off hand and consider yourself an expert.

Now with that in mind, the average match time is far less than 8 minutes. However allowing a stage that has a average match length that is much longer than any other stage - then our average match time is increased from what it currently is, which is not good for
running tournaments.

What "it currently is". You don't even know. You don't even know that it is far less than 8 minutes. It could be a 6 minute mean.

Even if metrics are planned at a near max time of 24 minutes, any time saved is incredibly beneficial, and allows players to leave earlier, run side events, etc. Now I understand that collecting data for this would be INCREDIBLY beneficial, because then we could find the average match time on all stages, and compare them to the average time on Japes to support my statements. Since we don't have data for Japes however, I am using the logic explained above as a replacement... for now. As I said the BBR-RC is working on a way to collect data for things otherwise seen as banned and such, which I hope to be able to talk about/unveil in the near future. You'll have to take my word on that for now unfortunately, nothing else I can do about that.

I won't take the word of anyone that thinks they can BS their way through discussions by substituting statistics for one-off observations and faulty logic.


I've studied the stages in this game since the beginning and still see people telling me that the klap trap is random. People are dumb and they like to impose their dumbness on others. Your group is no different.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're... very personal about this... o_O

 

[CT Chia]

I don't even see the need to debate with someone using such snarky rude or loud comments at times. Not saying your wrong, but it's not someone I wish to have a discussion with now.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It's like a smarter version of BPC lol.

I have to say that I agree with OS though. Especially considering no more than 2 matches can be played on Japes per set...the "running a tournamently efficiently" thing doesn't really work...as it will...slow down the tournament by...4-5 minutes per round of matches? That's not really much considering there are some sets that nearly go to time out anyway.


@OS The stagelist was meant to grow, not shrink. You are just being overly...assumptious I guess would be the word, even though it isn't a word. There is no way the stage list is going to be shrinking more, we have never discussed taking away another stage (Pictochat has legitimate problems...and I'm a huge advocate of the stage and I voted it banned...). Just relax man.

 

[Overswarm]

OS, I can't help it if people don't see things my way...if I like the stage and I back up my reasonings, people can just go "But X Y and Z" and even if I answer them they "want to see it actually happen". **** is annoying.

@Chibo the original members didn't decide on the stagelist...that was just AZ. We had to agree on the stagelist at first, which is pretty much what happened.

You CAN help it. Just denounce them as legitimate, because they aren't legitimate. It's pretty easy.

 

[Overswarm]

You're... very personal about this... o_O

No, I just don't give people the opportunity to assume I respect them.

I don't even see the need to debate with someone using such snarky rude or loud comments at times. Not saying your wrong, but it's not someone I wish to have a discussion with now.

You weren't debating before, and you wouldn't anyways. You just defend your previous statements.

It's like a smarter version of BPC lol.

I have to say that I agree with OS though. Especially considering no more than 2 matches can be played on Japes per set...the "running a tournamently efficiently" thing doesn't really work...as it will...slow down the tournament by...4-5 minutes per round of matches? That's not really much considering there are some sets that nearly go to time out anyway.


@OS The stagelist was meant to grow, not shrink. You are just being overly...assumptious I guess would be the word, even though it isn't a word. There is no way the stage list is going to be shrinking more, we have never discussed taking away another stage (Pictochat has legitimate problems...and I'm a huge advocate of the stage and I voted it banned...). Just relax man.

You don't even know why the Unity ruleset was created, do you? =P

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There is a point where you cross the line of being logical and just start being rude and anti-social.

In my opinion, you should think about how you word your next post.

 

[Deleted member]

I think removing a stage from the Unity Ruleset hurt the chances of new stages ever being added in.

 

[Overswarm]

There is a point where you cross the line of being logical and just start being rude and anti-social.

In my opinion, you should think about how you word your next post.

Or I could not care :B

I was nice before, no one listened, now I just post whatever I want and more people see my posts. Win/win.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

*Shrugs* I'm used to reading angry people so it doesn't bother me.

Denouncing people doesn't help OS...you realize this don't you? Like...major TOs probably won't get kicked out (Such as Xyro or Chibo) if I slander their opinion for not being legitimate...it doesn't do anything but make me look like a douche.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

gotta agree with ya their esam, xyro is one hell of a TO. he seriously pulled a miracle out of his *** to get our last circuit event to not be cancelled. the original venue backed out and he got one in just 2.5 days along with good venue fee and desirable location. seriously, man's a great TO

 

[Life]

OS is my new hero, in case that wasn't established already.

Anyway...

Hey BRC! How much can you tell us about the status of Japes in your backroom discussions? Is it looking up or down for the stage?

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to know the same regarding Norfair, please.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

FML latest double ever.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Dammit I thought my post had gone through...-_-

And what the hell people? You guys choose the ONE day that I dont check this thread to make it active again and I had to read through a 6 page explosion...lol

Anyway discussion on Japes and Norfair are on hold. And there's several reasons for it.

1. We had a few difference of opinions on both stages.

2. We have new members that will be admitted soon and we generally hold off discussion so that they can give their input.

3. If we follow through on the concept of experimental rulesets, we can safely gauge the legitimacy of these stages for competitive play; with extensive testing of course.

So don't expect a clear answer right now. It's good timing to try these new concepts considering we vowed we wouldn't make any changes for a while after making some major ones last month.

 

[WindMajor]

Anyway discussion on Japes and Norfair are on hold.

Yes! More time for me!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Like mains need anymore time....

 

[Xyro77]

Im gonna go ahead and spill the beans...

Next bbrrc update will include the addition of big blue to the list of starter stages.

 

[Juushichi]

Im gonna go ahead and spill the beans...

Next bbrrc update will include the addition of big blue to the list of starter stages.

0/10, Xyro.

 

[Xyro77]

0/10, Xyro.

Im not asking for a rating. im telling you some insider info. be happy

 

[Life]

Good thing it's after genesis

 

[T-block]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMH_c7pSQHY&NR=1

you can like, wavedash in place on japes though

That's not even close to useless.

Well... maybe for Link. Ivysaur gets sexy movement on Japes because of it though.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Im not asking for a rating. im telling you some insider info. be happy

Xyro....you know about our leaking policy...

*revokes status*

Spoiler

 

[Xyro77]

good thing it's after genesis

now we havin' fun






@ Technical_Chase

HOW RUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I know I'm just a rude person in general.

 

[stingers]

i started watching fma:b recently
scar <3

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ Approves of this statement.

Alright time to bring things back to relevancy again..lol

 

[stingers]

Ban scar
He's got 1hko's out the ***...so broken.

 

[Overswarm]

I know I'm just a rude person in general.

High five.

 

[Tin Man]

Last few pages were mad interesting to read : D

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know, it's funny. Anyone remember my old posts on the original BRC thread? They were pretty much exactly this. I was taken seriously by no one. /imad

Methinks somebody needs to do for Japes what BPC did for PS2. (For a lot of stages, actually.) Since that actually worked after a while.

Do it. Seriously. Even if that's what it takes, it needs to happen.

I don't even see the need to debate with someone using such snarky rude or loud comments at times. Not saying your wrong, but it's not someone I wish to have a discussion with now.

Backing out of the debate? Sounds fun. ^_^

It's like a smarter version of BPC lol.

Up yours, buddy.

@OS The stagelist was meant to grow, not shrink. You are just being overly...assumptious I guess would be the word, even though it isn't a word. There is no way the stage list is going to be shrinking more, we have never discussed taking away another stage (Pictochat has legitimate problems...and I'm a huge advocate of the stage and I voted it banned...). Just relax man.

Geez, I wonder how EC is going to react to that...

Here's the thing, ESAM. We have to start wide. The reason for this is pretty simple: it's really ****ing easy to get people to start banning a stage, but to get them to instate a currently banned stage is damn near impossible. Case in point: I basically fought for months to give PS2 another look among players. PS2! The stage couldn't be more tame to experienced players if it was domesticated. Nobody enjoys it as a counterpick, it's obscenely well-balanced, and the mechanics are simply a non-issue once you get used to them. And I had to basically fight tooth and nail (although the hardest part was really not losing my **** when people continued to act stupid). However, the German BBR came out with their first "german unity ruleset" a few days back and it seemed like nobody was even gonna bat an eye that Brinstar was gone (keep in mind, Germany already banned RC ages ago... now they're both gone). We don't have an MK problem-in fact, we have like 3 "decent" MKs in the country, compared to like 3-4 "solid" Snakes. But people just didn't like it. So it got removed. And meanwhile, getting people to even think about other stages is, more often than not, next to impossible. You can't tell me this doesn't mirror itself in the USA. Rulesets in smash do not have a tendency to grow. They just don't. It doesn't happen. And judging from who's in the BRC, I have serious doubts about how likely it is for the stagelist here to go anywhere but down (at least Alex is gone >.>).

So don't expect a clear answer right now. It's good timing to try these new concepts considering we vowed we wouldn't make any changes for a while after making some major ones last month.

"Banned Stages" Side event. DO IT ******

 

[Xyro77]

Do it. Seriously. Even if that's what it takes, it needs to happen.



Backing out of the debate? Sounds fun. ^_^



Up yours, buddy.



Geez, I wonder how EC is going to react to that...

Here's the thing, ESAM. We have to start wide. The reason for this is pretty simple: it's really ****ing easy to get people to start banning a stage, but to get them to instate a currently banned stage is damn near impossible. Case in point: I basically fought for months to give PS2 another look among players. PS2! The stage couldn't be more tame to experienced players if it was domesticated. Nobody enjoys it as a counterpick, it's obscenely well-balanced, and the mechanics are simply a non-issue once you get used to them. And I had to basically fight tooth and nail (although the hardest part was really not losing my **** when people continued to act stupid). However, the German BBR came out with their first "german unity ruleset" a few days back and it seemed like nobody was even gonna bat an eye that Brinstar was gone (keep in mind, Germany already banned RC ages ago... now they're both gone). We don't have an MK problem-in fact, we have like 3 "decent" MKs in the country, compared to like 3-4 "solid" Snakes. But people just didn't like it. So it got removed. And meanwhile, getting people to even think about other stages is, more often than not, next to impossible. You can't tell me this doesn't mirror itself in the USA. Rulesets in smash do not have a tendency to grow. They just don't. It doesn't happen. And judging from who's in the BRC, I have serious doubts about how likely it is for the stagelist here to go anywhere but down (at least Alex is gone >.>).





"Banned Stages" Side event. DO IT ******

When will you give up? No one in the bbrc listen to you.

 

[Overswarm]

When will you give up? No one in the bbrc listen to you.

And you got kicked out of the BBR for bad behavior, and are in the BBR-C because you have a venue rather than anything intelligent to say.

If you're done here, just go ahead and go. You're a waste of space otherwise.


I'm gonna go ahead and do actual work rather than just grab a venue and hold people hostage.