The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Grim Tuesday]

The fact is that you are still sacrificing diversity. To deny that would be stupid.

Stop bringing up Meta Knight as well, he ruins diversity on every stage.

 

[WindMajor]

I've been waiting.

ON YOUR POST.

Players are not allowed to use any game altering hacks, such as no-tripping.

Why aren't tournaments allowed to be run using this again?

4.

Bro I sent you that PM. D:

 

[Arcansi]

Bro I sent you that PM. D:

That notification thing is so small I never noticed it until now.

Duly noted.

 

[Rob_Gambino]

This is an ok ruleset. Why is there so much tyranny in enforcing people to use it though?

 

[Black Mantis]

The fact is that you are still sacrificing diversity. To deny that would be stupid.

Stop bringing up Meta Knight as well, he ruins diversity on every stage.

Until he's officially banned I have no choice but to mention him.
But mk banning is another discussion on it's own.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So then, can we agree that if Meta Knight was banned, these stages would be perfectly fine?

 

[ElDominio]

So then, can we agree that if Meta Knight was banned, these stages would be perfectly fine?

Most definently.

 

[Black Mantis]

I could see that as well.

 

[Arcansi]

Players are not allowed to use any game altering hacks, such as no-tripping.

Why aren't tournaments allowed to be run using this again?

5.

Should I just make my own thread?

 

[Zankoku]

Seeing as how Unity is an attempt at standardization, are you asking why it's not part of the experimental rule pieces?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hey Mantis, look up Rain vs. Tearbear. The set where Tearbear's counterpick was Rainbow Cruise. That is why our ruleset is better.

 

[Arcansi]

Seeing as how Unity is an attempt at standardization, are you asking why it's not part of the experimental rule pieces?

Noting this, yes.

 

[Judo777]

Use a faster character. I've used Ike against Sonic on Norfair and didn't have this problem.

Its not just about catching the other player its about doing so without commiting super hard. Ever try and stop an MK that tornados between the top 2 plats? It's really freaking hard.

 

[Judo777]

So, what I'm getting from DMG is that "boils down to a handful of characters" is the new "boils down to dittos"?

Since when have we ever banned anything for boiling down the gameplay to a handful of characters? Top tier is a handful of characters (if you don't put MK in his own tier). So what if most characters aren't viable on Norfair? Are three or more characters viable? Is there some sort of RPS? If so, don't ban.

It's as simple as that. Judo's / DMG's posts sound an awful lot like "I have problems on this stage, so it must be banworthy". ...which is funny, since DMG plays Wario.

Nope I have no problems what so ever with this stage. It's actually probably Sheik best stage and I have rarely ever lost on this stage. I have never been timed out on this stage (mostly because timing out Sheik is really freaking hard). Infact I love this stage as I said. I have done a LOT of testing on this stage, but against my own interest and likes I have to stay that this stage should be banned. Its just too big. Circle camping is easier on this stage than any other legal stage hands down.

Sry I didn't realize I was double posting my bad.

 

[Arcansi]

Its not just about catching the other player its about doing so without commiting super hard. Ever try and stop an MK that tornados between the top 2 plats? It's really freaking hard.

I don't see why...

Nado is really easy to beat if you see it coming.

Or is that character specific?

Nope I have no problems what so ever with this stage. It's actually probably Sheik best stage and I have rarely ever lost on this stage. I have never been timed out on this stage (mostly because timing out Sheik is really freaking hard). Infact I love this stage as I said. I have done a LOT of testing on this stage, but against my own interest and likes I have to stay that this stage should be banned. Its just too big. Circle camping is easier on this stage than any other legal stage hands down.

You circle camp.

I chase after you half-heartedly (note that this is assuming I can't catch you, which I doubt actually happens.) until the lava comes, at which point you are forced to approach me.

Becuase you don't want to do this, (why else are you circle camping.) I now get a large advantage.

Every single time the lava comes on screen.

 

[John12346]

Since when was Nado easy to beat even if you can see it coming?

Even moreso if MK is Nadoing above you, which he will be doing on Norfair if he's traversing between the two top platforms...

 

[Reizilla]

What was the 1.4 update? It looks the same.

 

[Arcansi]

Since when was Nado easy to beat even if you can see it coming?

Even moreso if MK is Nadoing above you, which he will be doing on Norfair if he's traversing between the two top platforms...

EDIT: I don't want to argue with a known pit, but I have read nados and ftilted them before.

Dair is probably specific to him coming at you on norfair, but it works.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

only from above bro since we can arrow it to cancel it or get one of those clutchly spaced uairs. from the side just do a retreating mirror shield or just run.

 

[infiniteV115]

What was the 1.4 update? It looks the same.

Go to the page with the yellow/red cards and what not (the actual Unity Ruleset page, not the Discussion page).

1 - Experimental Ruleset Thingy
2 - Unity Ruleset now applies to Canada

As for the current topic, I disagree. You SHOULD be able to beat nado IF you see it coming. Every character in the game has aerials that can hit MK out of nado when aimed properly.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

It is really hard to beat nado from under it. The weakspot of MK's tornado is above it, as shown in Nick Riddle's "Blank's aerials vs tornado"

 

[infiniteV115]

Well yeah, I was referring to John#'s question.
If the MK's trying to actually hit you with nado from above, it should be pretty easy to avoid on Norfair of all stages (fall through platforms, run around and grab a ledge, etc.) Then you can punish the landing lag.
But I suppose MK just trying to run the timer by nadoing between the top 2 platforms will be harder to stop. Unless you're Pikachu, cause then lolololthunder.

Norfair should still be legal though :B
And Blank's aerials suck. Typical bottom-tier trash.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hell Ganondorf's NAir beats Nado. Admittedly it's at the perfect angle to do so, but still.

Though some characters, specifically Peach, have it really really hard beating Nado.

Also just responding to this:

Add Wario to that as well. ^^^ Warios love that stage.

I have no problems fighting Wario on this stage. You still have to get a lead on me, which is nowhere near as easy as you might think.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Since when was Nado easy to beat even if you can see it coming?

Even moreso if MK is Nadoing above you, which he will be doing on Norfair if he's traversing between the two top platforms...

Is your character decent (let's see... Snake, Marth, Falco in this scenario, Olimar, Wario if he has a full waft-although wario can usually deal with it anyways due to his extreme mobility-, Diddy Kong, Pikachu to an extent...)? That should answer your question. And even when you can't flat-out beat it from below, the MK will still have to stop sooner or later, due to the lava.

 

[Judo777]

I don't see why...

Nado is really easy to beat if you see it coming.

Or is that character specific?



You circle camp.

I chase after you half-heartedly (note that this is assuming I can't catch you, which I doubt actually happens.) until the lava comes, at which point you are forced to approach me.

Becuase you don't want to do this, (why else are you circle camping.) I now get a large advantage.

Every single time the lava comes on screen.

Its not really character specfic at all. How many moves in the whole game can beat nado from underneathe? Cause that's where you will be as he is crossing over since the rest of the stage is below those plats in the middle. There are like maybe 4 or 5 aerials in the game that can cleanly stuff nado. Most of the moves that beat nado from underneathe are charged smashes but you can't do that here.

The lava only comes on an average of every 30 seconds and the only real limiting hazards is the giant wall (not the wave). It can be as long as 30 seconds for one of those to pop up. Not to mention its not completely unreasonable for a character on the same side of the screen as the wall to just stand inside and PS it til it goes away (I can do it) and only certain characters can stop that.

The only character with IMO easy ways of stopping Nado that can achieve a reasonable reward are Snake, Marth and maybe Pika. Diddy throwing a banana straight up at it won't do very much because MK will still be way too high to hit after the banana. So you will get a banana toss on him. but thats about it. Snake has naded which is the BEST option at stopping that crap, and Pika could catch him with a thunder here and there. Olimars options aren't good because he can't really afford to leave the bottom platform without risking losing the whole match (Oimar NEEDS the bottom plat to win on Norfair).

 

[WindMajor]

How exactly is this nado-ing through top platforms done? High up in the air, or at the level of the platform?

I always figured that if they went high up in the air, the chance to strike would be when the tornado is done, and MK is in helpless state. Even if it's at the level of the platforms, the window of opportunity is still the same, although much smaller.

 

[Judo777]

How exactly is this nado-ing through top platforms done? High up in the air, or at the level of the platform?

I always figured that if they went high up in the air, the chance to strike would be when the tornado is done, and MK is in helpless state. Even if it's at the level of the platforms, the window of opportunity is still the same, although much smaller.

I mean part of it is ur opponent plays it by ear. If you are on the middle [vertical middle] platform closer to him he might want to nado up much higher sense you would be forced to either chase him through the air (slow) or drop down to the middle and run on the platforms. If you are on the lower level you can be lower and try to autocancel it (tho you can autocancel in both cases most likely).

 

[John12346]

Well, what I meant is that, it's quite hard to catch MK if he's Nado'ing away from you via the top platforms, if he's intending to run away, not to attack. He even has the option to mix up his landings between landing on the top platform, grabbing the top platform's edge, or fast falling through the top platform to the middle platform's edge.

I know there are a few, but very little, character specific techs to stop this, but...

Also, wouldn't scrooging also be an effective move for MK's running away tactics on Norfair?

 

[DeLux]

As much as I love that you guys are discussing the competitive viability of Norfair, there aren't any current efforts to put it on to the legal stage list.

However, if I get enough tournament data PM'd to me (whether it be from new experimental rulessets or from past tournaments) making a strong case for it's viability, I will personally bring it up for discussion.

I personally would vote against its inclusion at the moment, but that is because I am probably the most stringent conservative stage person without the whole "it's not legal because it's gay" mentality.

 

[Tesh]

I see Norfair in the same boat as Japes, RC, Green Greens etc. You can argue that with alot of effort you can catch characters like Wario, Sonic, MK on those stages, but it really skews the risk/reward alot and reduces the game to more like....2 minutes of combat.

 

[Arcansi]

Well, what I meant is that, it's quite hard to catch MK if he's Nado'ing away from you via the top platforms, if he's intending to run away, not to attack. He even has the option to mix up his landings between landing on the top platform, grabbing the top platform's edge, or fast falling through the top platform to the middle platform's edge.

Oh. This isn't really a problem for pit, if he wants to run away we can just practice arrow looping/rain from one of the top platforms until we eventually take the lead/he is officially stalling. (because wouldn't he be, if he was avoiding all combat?)

 

[Tesh]

With Pits mediocre overall speed, I doubt MK would need to nado to escape him. Though tbh its just like RC/Brinstar etc. It doesn't really matter if a select few characters can chase MK down if they have like a 65:35 matchup with him anyway. If you look at how the stagelist is built, it really matters more if Diddy, Snake, Falco, Fox etc. can catch him.

 

[Arcansi]

With Pits mediocre overall speed, I doubt MK would need to nado to escape him. Though tbh its just like RC/Brinstar etc. It doesn't really matter if a select few characters can chase MK down if they have like a 65:35 matchup with him anyway. If you look at how the stagelist is built, it really matters more if Diddy, Snake, Falco, Fox etc. can catch him.

I know, but I don't have experience playing those characters, so I can't say anything.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think people overrate Tornado.... It has 30 ending lag frames no matter the height it ends, if you read the landing, it can be punished well, depending your character's options.

 

[John12346]

Y'know, I've thought about that a lot myself, it seems like people should be able to punish Nado somewhat efficiently, just based solely off frame data.

And yet... we rarely ever actually see it happen in practice...

We must question the reason why. Do you have any thoughts?

 

[Ghostbone]

Y'know, I've thought about that a lot myself, it seems like people should be able to punish Nado somewhat efficiently, just based solely off frame data.

And yet... we rarely ever actually see it happen in practice...

We must question the reason why. Do you have any thoughts?

Assuming he nados your shield, and assuming it doesn't shield poke (which happens a lot >.>), he can mix-up which side he lands on, how far away he lands, and even in the case where he ends nado far away so you can drop your shield and run to punish, he still has the threat of nadoing back and hitting you while you get ready to punish.

Basically while all his different options can be beaten, you don't know what he'll do.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah, it has 30 frames of endlag, and you will get punished if the MK stays right next to you...he will be punished. Now...if he retreats with it, imagine the time you have to hold your shield out of threat that MK comes back, and if you dash you will get hit. Now factor in shield drop, now factor in how much time it takes to run to him. Now factor in how long your attack comes out. Sure, including running away it is more than 30 frames, but it still takes a while to do all of those things.

 

[Tesh]

^this^

+ platforms complicate it even more, try adding 5-10 frames of jump-squat animation to your punish and it doesn't look too good. Its not as easy as punishing a smash with 30 frames of lag.

 

[Player-1]

I chuckled because bananas nullify all of that

 

[WindMajor]

So do bombs and Snake's mines. :3