The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[ぱみゅ]

That's why I said "depending on you character's options".

Also, if we're talking about platforms, Shield is not in the equation.




Again, is just theorycrafting.

 

[DMG]

I love Norfair when it's legal. Haven't lost on it in tournament or MM, besides random characters and teams (my partner SD'd with a full fresh stock)

It's a terrible stage competitively because of the layout. Simple as that. The layout of this stage enhances running away to a level that's not completely unbeatable, but is simply anti competitive. Because of that, banned.


For Nado: what you don't realize is that to punish nado, a lot of characters need plenty of ground space to do it because they cover ground quickly that way. However on a stage like norfair, characters that tend to punish it well now struggle. Like Diddy, how is he gonna punish Tornado if you sweep around to the other side? He can run and jump/fall in the air, but that slows him down and makes it harder for him to catch MK EVEN if he throws a banana and it lands.

Lots of room, and lots of breakage in the ground, leads to characters HAVING to be airborne to traverse and punish Nado. Which, a lot of characters cannot strongly punish MK for doing it if they have to go airborne.

 

[WindMajor]

to a level that's not completely unbeatable, but is simply anti competitive. Because of that, banned.

Can you elaborate?

 

[DMG]

Sure. The best strategy on this stage, barring MK specifically getting the lead and running via scrooging/around the stage tactics (because that trumps everything else cause, well it's MK), is to get the lead and run away. While this strategy is not completely unbeatable (because you can have characters like Wario G&W and to lesser extend Pikachu and etc), it's the strongest strategy by such a significant margin that 2 things are greatly reduced:

1. Overall character viability regardless of strategy you adopt

2. Overall strategic depth reduced significantly


It's not just "Oh hey MK Wario G&W etc" are the best characters, but the strategy that LEADS to them being the best characters on the stage is grossly enhanced to where other competing strategies and tactics are reduced to borderline or completely nonviable. That's not good. Now if you want to play Super Run Away Brothers with 5 characters where all we do is get a lead and start non approaching as much as possible, be my guest. I'll MM 95% of the community instantly at that kind of game/stage. I'd love for every stage in the game to be like Norfair cause that would heavily favor me as a player. But from a competitive standpoint, unless you WANT that watered down strategy/character viability on purpose, it does not suit your competitive needs. It does not deepen gameplay, nor does it deepen or open up the door to more viable strategies or a more broader evenly distributed viability for strategy already present.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Sure. The best strategy on this stage, barring MK getting the lead and running via scrooging/around the stage tactics, is to get the lead and run away. While this strategy is not completely unbeatable (because you can have characters like Wario G&W and to lesser extend Pikachu and etc), it's the strongest strategy by such a significant margin that 2 things are greatly reduced:

1. Overall character viability regardless of strategy you adopt

2. Overall strategic depth reduced significantly


It's not just "Oh hey MK Wario G&W etc" are the best characters, but the strategy that LEADS to them being the best characters on the stage is grossly enhanced to where other competing strategies and tactics are reduced to borderline or completely nonviable. That's not good.

I agree with this and this is also the reason why I agree with a LGL on every character.

 

[Life]

MK on Brinstar is worse.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK on Brinstar is worse.

I think people just saw M2K destroy Ally on that stage at MLG and automatically assumed it was MK's best stage. It's one of his best but I don't think he completely dominates on that stage. I think RC is a better stage for him because it forces players into recovery like situations

 

[Tesh]

The difference between RC and Brinstar is just slow campy timeout **** and sharking shuttle loop gimped @ 50 ****. RC gives you more of a chance for the MK to screw up and get *****, but it really depends on the character.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Brinstar can be permanently sharked (besides when there is acid), which is a highly advantageous position for MK

RC can be sharked for about 1/3rd of it, and then planked half, and then actually fight half. If I was to take my chances, I would take my chances on RC (Even as characters that are better on Brinstar like DK or Snake)

 

[Life]

Meant "worse than anybody on Norfair".

 

[Judo777]

I agree with this and this is also the reason why I agree with a LGL on every character.

But GW and Warios runaway game is not very dependent of the ledge at all. MK's is but not those 2 they actually have airspeed.

And for Nado in general the reason its so hard to punish is because of a few things. 1 we are humans and have to react to things. We can't just always know what they are doing. We have to wait for MK to commit to stop hitting our shield BEFORE we start attempting to punish. MK can move pretty far with nado after he has been pressuring us and it takes a LONG time to travel in smash. Sheik's DACUS is amazing because it allows you to be doing the moves startup WHILE you are moving as opposed to other characters who have to move THEN attack.

So Nado is 30 frames of ending lag. Average human reaction time is about 10 frames. Assuming we react as fast as we can and don't make sure MK"s not turning around, we then take 8 frames to drop our shield. We then have to run to where MK is which the fastest character take 30 frames to move half of FD. Then you have to start up a move which will average about 6 or 7 frame for DA.

The biggest issue with punishing Nado is you have to commit to punishing it BEFORE he stops nadoing or else you probably won't make it in time. And he can always mix it up and come back at you.

 

[Deleted member]

MK on Brinstar is worse.

So much this. At least on Norfair the lava wall limits where MK can go. Running away isn't so easy for him then, and it forces an encounter.

Either way, I think it's ridiculous to make a stage like this illegal for the sole reason of MK, especially when he's proven to be even worse on current, legal stages.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with this and this is also the reason why I agree with a LGL on every character.

HOW CAN PEOPLE STILL SUPPORT THAT STUPID RULE ZOMG

/caps

 

[Mr. game and watch]

What if MK was just a "Counter-pick" character.

Like, you can use MK if you lose round 1.

Seems good to me.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Seems completely arbitrary and stupid to me.

If he is a problem in Game 1, why is he somehow acceptable in Game 2?

 

[Vinylic.]

Because he's meta knight.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

because he's meta knight.

of course.

 

[Vinylic.]

I would say deal with it but, this will probably make me break my brawl disc in half.

 

[WindMajor]

Hey DMG, do you know of any videos in which Norfair gets abused that I can watch?

Forgot to ask last time.

 

[M@v]

HOW CAN PEOPLE STILL SUPPORT THAT STUPID RULE ZOMG

/caps

Have fun dealing with mk/g&w/sometimes pit if they get a percent lead.

 

[The Ben]

If they get themselves into a winning position I don't see why they shouldn't be able to capitalize on it.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I don't see why it's ok to to buff chars that can't deal with planking (not mks) but it's not ok to buff chars that can't deal with infinites that aren't the ics

 

[Overswarm]

Because people don't play those characters and they like to make rules and ban stages if it helps themselves out.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

But the usage of the character shouldn't matter if a character has a flaw it should be allowed to be used against them. Which is why I don't understand the point of having chars besides mk havin lgls

 

[WindMajor]

inb4someonesaysWillvsRB

 

[DMG]

Hey DMG, do you know of any videos in which Norfair gets abused that I can watch?

Forgot to ask last time.

As far as anything recent, idk. That stage hasn't been legal in a long time for most regions. Easiest example I could give would be Krystedez vs Big Lou at MLG. While it doesn't showcase good options for stopping Wario (or a good character for doing it, Slow Poke Luigi just can't catch Wario on Norfair regardless what he does really), but you can easily see how hopping around with someone very mobile in the air can be hard to handle if your character ALSO has to go airborne to try and stop it (or try to throw projectiles upwards. Trolololol)

 

[WindMajor]

It can be from 2008 for all I care, I just want to be able to visualize it since I'm probably not gonna be able to test it out for a while with any Warios here.

Also, Krystedez vs. Biglou didn't convince me of much.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

As much as I love Norfair and it is one of kmy favorite stages, as well as one of Link's best.

It's bad when people try to time out, because the layout helps it due to being top up over top down.

 

[WindMajor]

It helps, yes, but the issue is to what extent does it help?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[DMG]

To the extend that Razer and Gnes have numerous times declined a Norfair only MM, even with a LGL, because "Why would I sit here for 40 minutes to give you $5 while you time me out?"

 

[Jack Kieser]

With all due respect, DMG, that's just Razer and Gnes. Since when has anecdotal evidence ever been OK to use in a discussion like this? If it's not OK to use it to prove something isn't banworthy, then it's not OK to use it to prove something is banworthy.

Simply put, Razer and Gnes may be huge scrubs when you proposition them for a MM, or they may not play the stage right, or any other number of reasons why they wouldn't MM you on Norfair. 2 players not wanting a MM =/= a broken stage.

 

[Kuro~]

Have fun dealing with mk/g&w/sometimes pit if they get a percent lead.

Imo pit's a better planker/staller overall than G&w.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lol, come get ***** in houston by gnes and razer if you think they are so bad kieser. just do it

 

[Vinylic.]

That was a challange.

inb4notaccepted.

 

[Life]

That's not how it works maharba -_-

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wat, do i have to do it? ill mm him on norfair (1. i feel the stage should be legal. 2. ill time him out to add controversey) if gnes and razer don't feel like it. (im talkin bout kieser just for referance. i already told DMG, our MM is this weekend at HOBO )

hell we should do it on norfair and post them here afterwords for some norfair demonstrations that people can discuss. it's pit's best stage to my knowledge

 

[Espy Rose]

To the extend that Razer and Gnes have numerous times declined a Norfair only MM, even with a LGL, because "Why would I sit here for 40 minutes to give you $5 while you time me out?"

I'd play you in a Norfair only MM.

 

[DeLux]

Why are you guys still discussing Norfair when I told you that there haven't been discussions within the RC to legalize it?

Does not understand

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

****, meant to edit. My bad

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Now you know how I felt for months when they were discussing banning Brinstar or RC in here when I said there is no way we could do it.

Anyway, so do you guys have anything to update soon? If so, what can we be looking forward to?