The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Nidtendofreak]

No comment from the BRR-C about if you're trying trying to appease the majority, you would be banning MK, and thus as you're obviously not doing that, "appeasing the majority" doesn't work as a reason to ban Brinstar?

Bizkit, quit dodging this if you're answering questions.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, they seemed to have missed my post earlier, or simply don't have a response to it.

 

[Heartstring]

I'm going to be honest, it's just not going to happen. Don't forget, before Unity, most of us already ran rulesets that were very similar to Unity, maybe a stage or two difference, maybe a LGL or infintes rule difference. It would make Unity Ruleset virtually pointless to bring that back by letting each region's TOs decide which parts of the rules they want to follow.

excellent, lets be honest with eachother then.
i feel that the community would do better without the overly restricting rules of the unity ruleset, at the very least, make it a recommended ruleset to use, but dont force it on people with the threat of not supporting their tournament. when i hosted i used the unity ruleset and i got hounded for it because no-one agreed, i contemplated switching it back, but how spineless would that make me look?

i dont want to start any fights, but you can see the amount of arguing going on over such a silly thing.everyone needs to get go of their hate

Life is short, love more

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Using the everyone hates it argument kinda applies to MK as well, I have to agree with people on that.

 

[Bizkit047]

People are switching MK even in MMs

Myself included, I MM with MK quite a bit now. I may start going MK when I feel like going my main isn't a good idea. I also am going to an RI tourney this Sat that has a BUNCH of hilariously major banned stages legal, such as Onett, SMI, Skyworld, etc. I'll be trying to go full MK at this tourney to see if I can break the stages lulz.

I dislike the idea of giving the majority what they want if they're wrong.

Quite frankly, I'm sure the majority of the community wants MK banned. If this ruleset is all about unity, then logically you should ban MK. You certainly can't make it optional.

I don't think that's what AZ really meant. If that were the case, the majority would probably easily want MK banned, so MK would be banned. Majority doesn't want Brinstar, so Brinstar would be banned, etc.

No comment from the BRR-C about if you're trying trying to appease the majority, you would be banning MK, and thus as you're obviously not doing that, "appeasing the majority" doesn't work as a reason to ban Brinstar?

Indeed it doesn't. Sorry, didn't mean to seem like I'm dodging. Just random flood of questions out of nowhere was hard to keep up with.

excellent, lets be honest with eachother then.
i feel that the community would do better without the overly restricting rules of the unity ruleset, at the very least, make it a recommended ruleset to use, but dont force it on people with the threat of not supporting their tournament. when i hosted i used the unity ruleset and i got hounded for it because no-one agreed, i contemplated switching it back, but how spineless would that make me look?

i dont want to start any fights, but you can see the amount of arguing going on over such a silly thing.everyone needs to get go of their hate

Believe me, I'm sure everyone in BBR-RC would love to not make Unity sound forceful. It is just that because of how different everyone's view is of a perfect ruleset, they wouldn't have a reason to fully follow it without the incentive we give. And yes, fighting over any of this is pretty stupid. In the end, people don't tend to not go to tourneys over a ruleset unless it is god awful.

 

[-Ran]

The Unity Ruleset gains its power by large tournaments using it. Local scenes have almost always had 'trickle down rule-sets' for whatever the largest tournament was in the area. Now instead of the emulation being of multiple different templates, you have the larger events under the same banner. What you're now seeing is just the history of the scene repeating itself, except now its one ruleset instead of fifty slight variations.

 

[ADHD]

Why struggle with even matchups when you can just go MK?

 

[-Ran]

Because, Adhd, we're stubborn idiots that desperately hope that we can manage to discover a gimmick or trick that will change the match up. =(

 

[Heartstring]

Believe me, I'm sure everyone in BBR-RC would love to not make Unity sound forceful. It is just that because of how different everyone's view is of a perfect ruleset, they wouldn't have a reason to fully follow it without the incentive we give. And yes, fighting over any of this is pretty stupid. In the end, people don't tend to not go to tourneys over a ruleset unless it is god awful.

i see, well for future reference for this 'public communications' which esam is convinced that he is the only one doing. the way its layed out reads out as forceful, friendly suggestion to alter the wording a bit, makes all teh difference ^^
at least it looks like we got a middleground there! i actually think this is the first time ive managed to come to a reasonable conclusion in any smash debate, this is new business XD

 

[Player-1]

If rules aren't made to be appeasing to the community then people often quit or something like that, basically it's not healthy for the community if it's not made to be appeasing to them, BUT sometimes you do have to "force" rules on to the community otherwise no knowledge of the stages would ever be discovered and we'd just be ignorant on such matters forever so some things should be made even if against majority opinion, but the thing about MK is that we've had 3+ years to work with it and it's still a problem

 

[Bizkit047]

i see, well for future reference for this 'public communications' which esam is convinced that he is the only one doing. the way its layed out reads out as forceful, friendly suggestion to alter the wording a bit, makes all teh difference ^^
at least it looks like we got a middleground there! i actually think this is the first time ive managed to come to a reasonable conclusion in any smash debate, this is new business XD

All of us in the BBR-RC don't have any problem with TOs choosing not to follow Unity. All the "forceful" part means is that you don't get the full benefits if you don't use Unity. We can understand other countries having very different rulesets, such as Europe and Japan. Normally Tech Chase does the public relations in this Thread, but I believe he's going to be too busy for the next month to get really involved in any of it.

 

[Deleted member]

If rules aren't made to be appeasing to the community then people often quit or something like that, basically it's not healthy for the community if it's not made to be appeasing to them, BUT sometimes you do have to "force" rules on to the community otherwise no knowledge of the stages would ever be discovered and we'd just be ignorant on such matters forever so some things should be made even if against majority opinion, but the thing about MK is that we've had 3+ years to work with it and it's still a problem

And people just keep putting off the discussion by saying "wait until after this national". I've seen that so many times now, and are the results any different?

No.

 

[-Ran]

Well, Colorado has agreed with my ban of Meta Knight [I've taken over their scene since I'm there in a week. =p] Also, Dallas has reached that point as well with UTD Zac. ;d

 

[Chuee]

Why struggle with even matchups when you can just go MK?

because your opponent might know the MK MU a lot better than the MU with your main

 

[ADHD]

I'm too curious for the Genesis 2 results to see how bombarded they are with MK.

But the problem stems from us all being ugly, imo.

 

[BSP]

They are up

Top 7 had 5 (corrected) MKs involved

The variety below that was nice though.

Ktar will be interesting with Brinstar removed. I agree with what Ran said though, and don't have high hopes.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Brawl has a lot more legal stages than Melee. We should add an extra ban and not just use rules that worked for Melee

 

[Tesh]

I'm sure M2K will be able to camp his *** off on Frigate, Delfino or wherever else he needs to for the win.

 

[Bizkit047]

Yea...I'd like to see how Ktar goes with Brinstar banned. If MKs litter the the top spots, then clearly Brinstar probably isn't an issue.

And banning MK seems too controversial at this point. IMO, MK is only broken with his stalling ability. That is why a LGL exists. MK can still scrooge, but all scrooging on all legal stages except SV/RC eat up a LG unless the MK lands on stage and goes unpunished by the opponent. So far, scrooging rarely happens or is done correctly, so most don't see it as a problem.

 

[Espy Rose]

The best part, Biz, is that the LGL affects most characters to a greater extent than Meta Knight.

 

[Bizkit047]

The best part, Biz, is that the LGL affects most characters to a greater extent than Meta Knight.

But they share a larger LGL than MK anyway, so it's not nearly as bad as it used to be when it was "everyone 40" standard before Unity.

 

[NO-IDea]

Not disagreeing with you at all, but can you name specific characters Espy?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

G&W and Jigglypuff

...?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pit and Rob.

Yea...I'd like to see how Ktar goes with Brinstar banned. If MKs litter the the top spots, then clearly Brinstar probably isn't an issue.

And banning MK seems too controversial at this point. IMO, MK is only broken with his stalling ability. That is why a LGL exists. MK can still scrooge, but all scrooging on all legal stages except SV/RC eat up a LG unless the MK lands on stage and goes unpunished by the opponent. So far, scrooging rarely happens or is done correctly, so most don't see it as a problem.

It always was, we should not be afraid of it anymore.

 

[Deleted member]

It always was, we should not be afraid of it anymore.

Agreed. In fact, I'd say keeping him legal is actually where all the heat of the controversy lies. When he's gone, do you honestly see the community revolting against the Ruleset like they are now, Bizkit?

Quit snipping away at him surgically and just get the problem at the root. It only makes sense, especially at this point.

 

[John12346]

I'd just like to put out there that MK is still extremely OP even if we remove his stalling game. I can say with a large amount of certainty that a lot of the successful MK mains on my list do not play like total ******s with intent to time out.

MK still has ridiculous offensive options that put his opponents into terrifyingly bad situations, and defensive options that allow him to escape an exponentially larger amount of situations than the rest of the cast is capable of doing. The fact he has his time-out abilities(among a lot of other things...) just makes matters even worse.

 

[Bizkit047]

Yes, actually. Removing him would likely cause a pretty sizable split on whether or not our ruleset is used. Not all regions and players think he's broken. As I've said myself, I only find his stalling really broken. Removing an entire character from a game is a HUGE ruleset change. It's not something small like removing Pictochat.

See, with removing a stage, all you'll do is upset some people that are like "Oh come on that's a perfectly legit stage." or please some people who are like "Oh thank god that gay stage is gone." You remove MK, who is many peoples mains, these people will probably act against the ruleset. It is flawed to think that all these players who have probably worked on MK for over a year will suddenly go back to their old mains willingly or to assume that everyone will be happy with the change or agrees that MK is too broken.

If anything, MK is more broken in doubles IMO due to almost all good teams in most regions requiring at least one MK per team, with small exceptions.

Either way...I don't think it should just be the BBR-RC's decision that gets involved in this if it ever gets brought up.

 

[Reizilla]

As much as I love playing devil's advocate....

If you ban MK, you'll see ridiculous backlash from many people. You'll split the community and tournament attendance will drop.. most of pro-ban is going to keep going to tourneys regardless and they'll just whine like they always have. If you ban MK, you're excluding a huge number of people and risk them quitting entirely. It's foolish to think banning MK really solves anything. The consequences of banning him are potentially much, much worse than the "problems" we have now.

Genesis wasn't even littered with MKs. There were 4 in the top 8. The rest of bracket had one or two scattered in each placing. All that tells me is that there are some damn good players using the character to place that well that consistently.

 

[Bizkit047]

Yes..that's the problem. We please the low tier mains that suddenly think Mario is viable, but when they just lose to Diddy/Snake/ICs/Falco all the time, it'll probably just make them go back to hating Brawl. I don't think it's worth the risk IMO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He is more broken in doubles, considering MK + someone is always a team, if not double MK. I haven't gotten a full chart yet, but I'm working on it.

Well it sucks, but Akuma mains, Kiba mains, Ivan Ooze mains lol, all have to deal with it if it happens. Let's face it, they full well knew they picked up a character that is considered borderline banable, they can;t have not known the risk. There isn't a way they couldn't have known that.

Banning him can also increase attendance, and bring more people back. There are pros and cons, alongs with risks. People who have looked at the issue know this, same thing when other characters, card etc. have been banned in a competitive setting, it's normal.

Banning him isn't going to destroy the competitive scene when keeping him legal seems to do just that as well.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yes..that's the problem. We please the low tier mains that suddenly think Mario is viable, but when they just lose to Diddy/Snake/ICs/Falco all the time, it'll probably just make them go back to hating Brawl. I don't think it's worth the risk IMO.

What about the risk of people losing interest in Brawl in general because of MK? People have quit because he saturates (arguably supersaturates) the scene. Apparently, people were booing at the Genesis 2 finals because of MK (if somebody could confirm this, that would be nice). Frankly, people are getting sick of MK.

 

[John12346]

In addition, the data that's been presented over the course of this year has shown that the game itself would become a lot more balanced and provide a lot more viability for more characters(not low tiers obviously, they're *** to begin with lol) in the face of MK's non-existence. It's extremely likely that the rate of people quitting the game will decrease by an ENORMOUS amount considering that the two main reasons for quitting the game are becoming too old for Smash and Metaknight.

Red and Niddo kinda beat me to all the other points I was gonna make.

I'm still advocating for a sitewide poll, so we can really get the straight skippy on where everyone stands right now.

 

[Player-1]

I really don't think the split is going to be that dramatic pro-ban is the vast majority of the community now and still growing more and more from what I see, then there will be the people that just don't care, then some of the anti-ban may quit but some of them will also just switch characters. So of all those groups only a handful will be quitting, but not only that some people will be coming back, so in theory banning MK seems like the most healthy thing for the community to do, but as most people already know what works in theory isn't always what works in reality.

TBH, I don't think MK is broken enough to be banned and I agree with bizkit when he says only his stalling potential is THAT broken. The reason I think MK needs to be banned is that like half the community is using MK which is the main thing hurting the community IMO is that there is over centralization on character choice which is just turning the core of the metagame into how to fight MK.

 

[-Ran]

Let's not turn this into another Mk discussion. Instead, you should be making statements like: Meta Knight is banned in Colorado now. Discussion can only take you in the direction you want to go; eventually you have to start taking the steps to make tangible change occur. If you lack the power to facilitate action, then the onus is on you to increase your pull in your local/state communities. It's easy to be a forum warrior.

 

[ChKn]

onus = duty/responsibility. Really looked at that as anus at first.

I mean there's only so much we can predict with what happens/doesn't happen. You can look at it from either side of the coin, but once you see actual evidence over a longer period of time, you can tell what is going to happen.

 

[Bizkit047]

I'm all for a site poll again out of curiosity, though I can't imagine the staff and mods are up to dealing with the flood of posts again.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's not turn this into another Mk discussion. Instead, you should be making statements like: Meta Knight is banned in Colorado now. Discussion can only take you in the direction you want to go; eventually you have to start taking the steps to make tangible change occur. If you lack the power to facilitate action, then the onus is on you to increase your pull in your local/state communities. It's easy to be a forum warrior.

To add to that, Kiest, a Columbus, Ohio TO, has already hosted a well-received MK banned tournament and will be hosting another August 21st.

@Bizkit, then the staff and mods need to quit giving up on the discussions as a whole when there are plenty of good posts in the discussion.

Seriously, don't be afraid to infract. State clear rules in the OP of the discussion. That's everyone's warning, and that's all they need.

Also, getting more mods to watch over the poll would be a good idea. A watchful eye can put the flames/trolls to the stop, but they have to be strict.

 

[Player-1]

Then have the mods lock the thread and just have the poll open >.>

 

[Nidtendofreak]

To add to that, Kiest, a Columbus, Ohio TO, has already hosted a well-received MK banned tournament and will be hosting another August 21st.

And the HOBO tournaments in Dallas with MK banned, that had the highest turnout for the tournament series.

 

[Bizkit047]

To add to that, Kiest, a Columbus, Ohio TO, has already hosted a well-received MK banned tournament and will be hosting another August 21st.

Naturally, that's the feedback a TO would get for hosting an MK banned tourney. TX does it a lot as well. It doesn't mean globally banning MK from all tourneys that use Unity would work that way. If I hosted an MK banned tourney in my region, I doubt I'd get many complaints either.