The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[ChKn]

I'm down for the plan.

 

[Allin]

So can we get a list of names behind the plan? Well, it needs a good name first... The Silent Poll perhaps? Since it can gauge pro-ban's strength without having to revoke the MK discussion rule.

List of names behind Silent Poll Plan:
1. InferiorityComplex
2. John12346
3. Auspher
4. vVv Rapture
5. Niddo
6. Bizkit

ADHD you in? Anyone else in favor, speak now or forever momentarily hold your peace!

I'll back it, anyway to resolve this issue sooner, prefer to run MK Ban tournaments when I run brawl, but I also want to run unity so it's troublesome.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm important, put me twice. xD

 

[Player-1]

I'm down for the poll, but, at least based on the previous polls since they were all for MK ban, a poll itself most likely is not going to change anything, other things need to be done if you want change.

 

[John12346]

Bizkit, we're not really arguing for it to happen RIGHT NOW, but the base of any important movement is support, right? This is one of the first few steps we need to take.

Inferiority, not for nothing, but I think those strike tags can be safely removed from Bizkit on your list...

I PM'd to AZ about it, so let's just see where it goes from there, alright?

 

[Life]

Bizkit protested that he doesn't want on yet but will support in the future, so I put in striketags to reflect this.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

We should first vote on a modified stage list. have people vote on the problem stages like Brinstar/ RC. We could always bring them back if it was really MK.

 

[Tesh]

Or we could see if Brinstar/RC continue to be a problem with MK gone.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Or we could see if Brinstar/RC continue to be a problem with MK gone.

You are losing more by removing a character than you are by removing two stages

 

[Life]

502 bad gateway

Repurposing post...

Jebus, you know what opportunity cost is, right? It's the cost of _not_ doing something--for example, if I spend five bucks on some bottled water, I can't use that five bucks to enter this weekend's tournament, or whatever.

I'd argue that the cost of not banning MK but banning RC/Brinstar (MK still wins 40%+ of every tournament dollar) is greater than the cost of banning MK but keeping those two stages (and possibly legalizing others?). We've had tournaments that have banned RC and/or Brinstar and MK's dominance didn't really change much IIRC--he's still by far the best character on every other stage, too. Meanwhile, you've likely heard of another certain tournament which banned MK, as it was also the first tournament _ever_ (AFAIK) to be won by a Ganondorf.

 

[Bizkit047]

With MK gone I'd easily see no real problem with keeping both stages legal and maybe even bringing back a couple more. >.>

But that's just me.

Also, like I said, don't rush this if you want this to work. I really think it would be beneficial to host some MK banned tourneys more often to get some real data instead of theory.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

502 bad gateway

Repurposing post...

Jebus, you know what opportunity cost is, right? It's the cost of _not_ doing something--for example, if I spend five bucks on some bottled water, I can't use that five bucks to enter this weekend's tournament, or whatever.

I'd argue that the cost of not banning MK but banning RC/Brinstar (MK still wins 40%+ of every tournament dollar) is greater than the cost of banning MK but keeping those two stages (and possibly legalizing others?).

I was thinking more of game depth. You lose way more match ups (including match ups on different stages) by banning a character than you do by banning a stage

 

[-Ran]

Conversely, you gain more tournament viable characters [and character diversity] which increases the overall match ups required to perform at a high level.

 

[BSP]

A poll can't hurt. I'm down for it

And don't forget about other characters rising up

dang it Ran

 

[Life]

Names behind Silent Poll Plan:
1. InferiorityComplex
2. John12346
3. Auspher
4. vVv Rapture
5. Niddo
6. Bizkit
7. Ussi
8. M@V
9. ADHD
10. ChKn
11. Allin
12. Player-1
13. BSP
14. Raziek
15. San
Reposting for new page.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Conversely, you gain more tournament viable characters [and character diversity] which increases the overall match ups required to perform at a high level.

But they were always there. Players just decided not to use them. I could argue that by banning DDD, you would increase even more character viability than you would by banning MK.

 

[Allin]

With MK gone I'd easily see no real problem with keeping both stages legal and maybe even bringing back a couple more. >.>

But that's just me.

Also, like I said, don't rush this if you want this to work. I really think it would be beneficial to host some MK banned tourneys more often to get some real data instead of theory.

This^100th power, I feel that we need legit data to make sure that this is even the case. I mean think of it.

Say we ban MK, now CharacterX is most likely to take the top spot, of course he some bad match-ups but most are decent. We don't want to ban MK on theory and then just because X ends up being the next best thing. leaving us having to deal with another banning or not. Your going to need some cold hard facts. Atleast if you want any possibilites of the ban happening.

Also you need to get the T.O's behind the idea. They need to know that because they're following your ruleset they aren't going to lose tournament attendance which is a huge issue that many T.O's are worried about in the more MK saturated areas. (E.G. New Jersey)

 

[Tesh]

Names behind Silent Poll Plan:
1. InferiorityComplex
2. John12346
3. Auspher
4. vVv Rapture
5. Niddo
6. Bizkit
7. Ussi
8. M@V
9. ADHD
10. ChKn
11. Allin
12. Player-1
13. BSP

Reposting for new page.

Good job outing everyone to the mods.

 

[BSP]

Are we going to have a character that gets a lead? Yeah

A lead comparable to MK? Highly Unlikely imo.

@Jebus- are you talking about the characters he infinites? cause MK ***** them anyway, and he's much much more common.

 

[Life]

Good job outing everyone to the mods.

Because we're not already discussing MK's legality, which is technically unallowed, in the thread most frequented by mods.

If people get infracted because of my list, could you IMAGINE the outrage? It is not banworthy to have an opinion on MK's legality (I'm actually kinda neutral, I just think it's an issue that needs to be looked into again).

I see you Raziek, you in?

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't be discussing it here if Red Ryu hadn't posted his thoughts on it, and he moderates this forum.

 

[-Ran]

But they were always there. Players just decided not to use them. I could argue that by banning DDD you would increase even more character viability than you would by banning MK.

Your argument would only further the case to ban MK. D3 amounts for less than 2% of the competitive Metagame and his match up spread is essentially the same as MK in terms of what he does vs certain characters [aside from the whole fact that he gets defeated strongly by several characters.] D3 can be counter picked; Meta Knight can't. D3 has sixteen match ups in a significant favor [+2], but six match ups [-2] or greater that he loses. Meta Knight has twenty-six match ups in a significant favor, but has no unfavorable match ups [many are beginning to shift to no even match ups.] This isn't even taken account the fact that D3 has stages he performs poorly on. One character gains dominance for significant flaws, while the other is simply dominant.

 

[Raziek]

Because we're not already discussing MK's legality, which is technically unallowed, in the thread most frequented by mods.

If people get infracted because of my list, could you IMAGINE the outrage? It is not banworthy to have an opinion on MK's legality (I'm actually kinda neutral, I just think it's an issue that needs to be looked into again).

I see you Raziek, you in?

I've banned the damn bat once already, of course I'm in.

God, how I would love to see the community actually go through with this.

 

[Life]

Folks, you've just seen something miraculous: a plan was proposed that both ADHD and Raziek could agree on! We just need BPC and Jebus/Akuma and then it'll be REALLY freaky

 

[Player-1]

I feel like the list would lose credibility if jebus' name was on it =/

 

[san.]

If this is the best chance we have to have SOMETHING done about this, just to know what's going on, I'll support this.

Face it, MK ban discussion is in almost every thread discussing the metagame all over the boards.
If I recall correctly, people halted discussion on MK because of the MLGs. They're long over now.

2 weeks should be plenty of time to gather an argument.

 

[Tesh]

With the amount of talking thats already been going on, I'd say a week tops.

 

[Yink]

With MK gone I'd easily see no real problem with keeping both stages legal and maybe even bringing back a couple more. >.>

But that's just me.

And guess what? I agree with you, too. +1.

 

[Life]

Adding San.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Your argument would only further the case to ban MK. D3 amounts for less than 2% of the competitive Metagame and his match up spread is essentially the same as MK in terms of what he does vs certain characters [aside from the whole fact that he gets defeated strongly by several characters.] D3 can be counter picked; Meta Knight can't. D3 has sixteen match ups in a significant favor [+2], but six match ups [-2] or greater that he loses. Meta Knight has twenty-six match ups in a significant favor, but has no unfavorable match ups [many are beginning to shift to no even match ups.] This isn't even taken account the fact that D3 has stages he performs poorly on. One character gains dominance for significant flaws, while the other is simply dominant.

The reason why MK is so dominant is because he has so many players that play him at top level.
It doesn't take players that long for them to get good with MK because there are so many great examples all around them. Ban MK and then the next best character will become just as dominant. I know for a fact that MK would not have advanced as much as he did in other countries if it were not for all these videos of top North American MK mains on the internet for them to see.

I also know for a fact that many MK mains would still be losing to Snake because not everyone is brave enough to attack a snake with a shuttle loop off-stage. Some players need to see something work before they can take a risk like that.

 

[Tesh]

You really think Diddy, Snake and Falco mains just aren't very brave because they didn't see M2K do it?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You really think Diddy, Snake and Falco mains just aren't very brave because they didn't see M2K do it?

I was just giving you an example. I know for a fact that I would not be maining Diddy Kong today were it not for those videos that I saw of Ninjalink vs. M2K where he grab releases him into a foot stool gimp.

 

[Player-1]

The reason why MK is so dominant is because he has so many players that play him at top level.
It doesn't take players that long for them to get good with MK because there are so many great examples all around them. Ban MK and then the next best character will become just as dominant. I know for a fact that MK would not have advanced as much as he did in other countries if it were not for all these videos of top North American MK mains on the internet for them to see.

I also know for a fact that many MK mains would still be losing to Snake because not everyone is brave enough to attack a snake with a shuttle loop off-stage. Some players need to see something work before they can take a risk like that.

you know for a fact? Uhhh.... no you don't that's just mere speculation, stop spewing random bull****.



Yeah, Nairo definitely lost to bizkit because he didn't up-b him off stage enough....obviously...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVLeOfJzC-Q#t=13m14s

 

[-Ran]

The reason why MK is so dominant is because he has so many players that play him at top level.
It doesn't take players that long for them to get good with MK because there are so many great examples all around them. Ban MK and then the next best character will become just as dominant. I know for a fact that MK would not have advanced as much as he did in other countries if it were not for all these videos of top North American MK mains on the internet for them to see.

I also know for a fact that many MK mains would still be losing to Snake because not everyone is brave enough to attack a snake with a shuttle loop off-stage. Some players need to see something work before they can take a risk like that.

However, the next best character has negative match ups, and has characters that actually run -even- with them. Even is a term that Meta Knight scarcely is aware of, with the best Diddy and Falco players saying the match up isn't even anymore, and the best Pikachu using Ice Climbers against them. You cannot say the same for characters that are next in line. They all have deficiencies in their play style that would allow for other characters to have an edge against them. Let's not forget about the inclusion of stages into the mixture. Sure, Diddy/Falco are amazing on a normal, flat stage, but that can be counter-picked.

Also, Snake getting shuttle looped while 'saving' Mk with his cypher was found out pretty damn fast by some random. It wasn't a revolutionary 'at' that was formed by the best players to defeat Snake. The main thing that drastically altered the match up was that MKs [and everyone else] learned how to control their character and their frame traps to the point where a Snake couldn't succeed in using his punishing tilts against them at full force. If you watch the later M2k vs Ally videos, you'll notice that over 40% of the damage that Ally does comes from his grenade game, because -nothing- else can reliably hit Meta Knight.

You make a lot of claims, but you don't see to have any evidence that's grounded in reality.

 

[vVv Rapture]

The reason why MK is so dominant is because he has so many players that play him at top level.
It doesn't take players that long for them to get good with MK because there are so many great examples all around them. Ban MK and then the next best character will become just as dominant. I know for a fact that MK would not have advanced as much as he did in other countries if it were not for all these videos of top North American MK mains on the internet for them to see.

I also know for a fact that many MK mains would still be losing to Snake because not everyone is brave enough to attack a snake with a shuttle loop off-stage. Some players need to see something work before they can take a risk like that.

It doesn't take long to get good with MK because he's the best character and one of the easiest to learn. All characters are hard to master, but MK is easy to pick-up and get involved. There is no other character like him.

If MK gets banned, Snake nor Diddy nor Falco would take MK's spot because they do not have the dominance MK has. They don't have the extreme strengths, ease of a learning curve (esp those three, all three of them are rather technical), dominance, array of options, etc. that MK has.

Saying Snake or Diddy or Falco would be the next MK is stupid, and plus you can't prove it. Burden of proof is on you, buddy.

 

[Tesh]

Gotta agree with Ran about the Snake-MK matchup evolving. Back in 09 Snake was thought to go even with or beat MK because grenade damage was just accepted as a given and Snake was better at surviving the trades.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEWJP6STK88&t=5m16s

If MK was truly broken, This wouldn't have happened

 

[Player-1]

yes because we can clearly come to the conclusion that MK isn't broken based off of one match.

 

[Scatz]

IC, I fully support your idea, and would like to be added to the list.

Also, there has been far too many IMOs about the MK ban. Just because you "think" MK isn't broken doesn't mean squat when the actual evidence shows up. Not only that, but soo many people higher ups have avoided his discussion of banning by delaying themselves to each national (and it's being delayed against until Ktar6). You guys shouldn't be dancing around the problem anymore cause these remedies being tested to keep MK in haven't been working since we've started back in 2009.

Hell, I've talked to a lot of people that said they quit because of MK and his dominance. Apparently MK mains are more important than the masses that fill the pots.

Jebus: that doesn't make your point any better. People can play the character stupid and make him seem like he's not broken. Yet, we have more than enough abnormals through the 3 years of waiting to see what happens. You've only shown that tearbear failed to camp correctly against Rain's Falco.

 

[-Ran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEWJP6STK88&t=5m16s

If MK was truly broken, This wouldn't have happened

What, an incredibly close match between two players [one of which isn't the top in his state] vs one of the best in Japan? A match that leads the Japan player to utilizing Meta Knight? At the end of the day, Meta Knight won the set, which is what determines victory. One match yields insignificant amounts of data compared to the thousands of sets that have lead us to one, absolute truth. Meta Knight accounts for 55% of tournament winnings, and the percentage grows with every event.