The timer?

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Here is a list of the high profile matches that were involved:
(you see duplicate names because it's player 1 vs whoever he played against that was player 2)

_X_ vs:
-Dojo-
TyRaNt-WC

AlliieD_ vs:
only4GOD

AllyOrNotAlly vs:
Tearbear
TyRaNt-WC

AmazingAmpharos vs:
T.K.O.

Bloodcross vs:
KiraFlax
kismet2

ChiboSempai vs:
AlliieD_
Fizzle_Boy

dj_iskascribble:
ithrowthings
Punishment Divine

EE_Flowers vs:
Snakeeee

FatalMatt vs:
kingtoon
RichBrown

Fliphop05 vs:
CO18

GermmyyyJermz:
CO18

GIMR vs:
_Seph_

ithrowthings vs:
IXx_Champ_xXI

Jiffyboob vs:
Xyless2072

-Keitaro- vs:
thetantalus

Mew2King vs:
JudgeMeow
LeeMartin

Mister-Eric vs:
G.I.M.R.

mjg7tlink vs:
CO18
Gnes

Pitzer757 vs:
Speed_SonicTH

RichBrown vs:
Puffball64

SadaharuInui vs:
Bizk1t

Seibrik vs:
_X_
Kelzorz

SickNasty2330 vs:
TurboEther

Sovereign90 vs:
Punishment.Divine

Speed_SonicTH vs:
TheRealDSF

Stockfield vs:
Roxas215

TheReflexWonder vs:
ChiboSempai

Many of these are known names (and in many cases for both players involved). We can assume that these were late bracket matches or at least high stakes matches. Even a few games affecting these late bracket could influence a lot. That 1% may be more influential than what the number suggests.
 

Shockna

Smash Cadet
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Aug 21, 2010
Messages
47
Why the eff is Shadowlink in the BBR again?
Possibly has something to do with him being really, really good at debate. He's about the only one here who's presented something other than an opinion based argument.

Really though, just ban MK. He's the one with the most to gain out of time outs (I'd also wager most of those MLG timeouts involved him), so eliminating him would solve almost all of this problem without needing to go for more arbitrary limitations like this.
 

-Ran

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Because, players have become accustomed to having the first stock to feel out their opponent and make slow, gradual adjustments during the course of the match. Even though when I researched top level play [over 100 matches], 90% of the time the person that takes the second stock first [and isn't revenge killed during invincibility], wins the match. When I run novice events, it's always two-stock/six minutes.
 

Ghostbone

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Two stocks I feel isn't enough to have proper momentum shifts and comebacks within a match, but it's really a matter of preference, 3 stock matches in Brawl is a long time though, and I could deal with 2 stock matches being standardised (or being used for pools and stuff).

Anyway, what ShadowLink doesn't (or refuses) to understand is that the only possible arguments for a timer are subjective opinions, as there is no default. 8 minutes is a subjective number just as much as 9 minutes is, and we should really just have a timer the majority agrees on.
People seem to be unhappy with the 8 minute timer, and feel that too many matches go to time/end just before time because someone had to do something extremely risk to have a chance of winning (e.g., M2K vs Ally last game on Brinstar).
Who are you to say they're wrong, when your argument is just "no that's not enough I don't care"
Yes there's nothing "wrong" with timeouts, but there's nothing wrong with a game ending by one person losing all their stocks either, people just want one to occur (and not occur because of the timer being about to run out) more often than it does at the moment. (and saying "timeouts are legit we shouldn't try to limit them" isn't a legitimate argument, as 9 minutes is limiting timeouts compared to 8 minutes just as 8 minutes is limiting timeouts compared to 7 minutes, and so on. if you wanted each to be equal, the timer should be like 6 minutes)
 

Flayl

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Possibly has something to do with him being really, really good at debate. He's about the only one here who's presented something other than an opinion based argument.
Oh, is that what you call his responses to san's posts? Good reality-based arguments?

Please.

A lot of the posters on this forum seem to value agressive tones, bad analogies and obnoxiousness over substance. And it's no coincidence that these faults come from people who relish to call themselves debaters.
 

MJG

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Here is a list of the high profile matches that were involved:
(you see duplicate names because it's player 1 vs whoever he played against that was player 2)

_X_ vs:
-Dojo-
TyRaNt-WC

AlliieD_ vs:
only4GOD

AllyOrNotAlly vs:
Tearbear
TyRaNt-WC

AmazingAmpharos vs:
T.K.O.

Bloodcross vs:
KiraFlax
kismet2

ChiboSempai vs:
AlliieD_
Fizzle_Boy

dj_iskascribble:
ithrowthings
Punishment Divine

EE_Flowers vs:
Snakeeee

FatalMatt vs:
kingtoon
RichBrown

Fliphop05 vs:
CO18

GermmyyyJermz:
CO18

GIMR vs:
_Seph_

ithrowthings vs:
IXx_Champ_xXI

Jiffyboob vs:
Xyless2072

-Keitaro- vs:
thetantalus

Mew2King vs:
JudgeMeow
LeeMartin

Mister-Eric vs:
G.I.M.R.

mjg7tlink vs:
CO18
Gnes

Pitzer757 vs:
Speed_SonicTH

RichBrown vs:
Puffball64

SadaharuInui vs:
Bizk1t

Seibrik vs:
_X_
Kelzorz

SickNasty2330 vs:
TurboEther

Sovereign90 vs:
Punishment.Divine

Speed_SonicTH vs:
TheRealDSF

Stockfield vs:
Roxas215

TheReflexWonder vs:
ChiboSempai

Many of these are known names (and in many cases for both players involved). We can assume that these were late bracket matches or at least high stakes matches. Even a few games affecting these late bracket could influence a lot. That 1% may be more influential than what the number suggests.
Yes...I was determined to make it into Pro-Bracket when I heard that I just needed to be CO18 in order to do so and by doing so, I was willing to do whatever it took.

Also, I don't think increasing the timer to 9 minutes will really help...I have had a few matches that have gone to time when both myself and my opponent had 2 stocks >_>
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
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Location
Maryland
NNID
VGBC_GimR
Here is a list of the high profile matches that were involved:
(you see duplicate names because it's player 1 vs whoever he played against that was player 2)

_X_ vs:
-Dojo-
TyRaNt-WC

AlliieD_ vs:
only4GOD

AllyOrNotAlly vs:
Tearbear
TyRaNt-WC

AmazingAmpharos vs:
T.K.O.

Bloodcross vs:
KiraFlax
kismet2

ChiboSempai vs:
AlliieD_
Fizzle_Boy

dj_iskascribble:
ithrowthings
Punishment Divine

EE_Flowers vs:
Snakeeee

FatalMatt vs:
kingtoon
RichBrown

Fliphop05 vs:
CO18

GermmyyyJermz:
CO18

GIMR vs:
_Seph_

ithrowthings vs:
IXx_Champ_xXI

Jiffyboob vs:
Xyless2072

-Keitaro- vs:
thetantalus

Mew2King vs:
JudgeMeow
LeeMartin

Mister-Eric vs:
G.I.M.R.

mjg7tlink vs:
CO18
Gnes

Pitzer757 vs:
Speed_SonicTH

RichBrown vs:
Puffball64

SadaharuInui vs:
Bizk1t

Seibrik vs:
_X_
Kelzorz

SickNasty2330 vs:
TurboEther

Sovereign90 vs:
Punishment.Divine

Speed_SonicTH vs:
TheRealDSF

Stockfield vs:
Roxas215

TheReflexWonder vs:
ChiboSempai

Many of these are known names (and in many cases for both players involved). We can assume that these were late bracket matches or at least high stakes matches. Even a few games affecting these late bracket could influence a lot. That 1% may be more influential than what the number suggests.
what's going on here? Why is my name on here? BTW Krystedez timed me out at genesis 2, my Falco vs his Wario. If the timer was 10 minutes, that wouldn't of happened.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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No need to quote that long post over and over. Those were players involved in "timeouts" at MLG, excluding those very close.

Just making a point that MLG data suggests that timeouts are a more higher level thing, and would affect late bracket matches, just to reiterate.
 

B.A.M.

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Messages
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Location
Fullerton, CA
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Bambatta
Noone should listen to ShadowLink. He himself is a walking fallacy. So unless he actually contributes with a valid argument, he should just simply be ignored. Gheb, San, I definitely concur with this reasoning thus far. This change in timer wouldnt just effect the time out % but also the fact that 'hail marys' are often employed during that final minute which are neophytic in nature and often end with the said combatant losing. This is not what we strive for in competitive play (given our system of %).

I really dont see anything wrong with a 10 min. timer. based on what has been gathered from our Japanese counterparts. 8 mins just doesnt make sense for the game. Heck we know that ourselves which is why we put 3min 1 stock tie breaker. Why? Because we dont want another time out. 8 mins doesnt fit with our fighter. Why cant people just understand that?

Lol at ShadowLink saying its foolish and arbitrary that San doesnt like matches approaching time. When we have a failing means of determining a winner through time, then yes that is an issue, BECAUSE THE TIMER EFFECTS BOTH THE MATCHES THAT GO TO TIME AND THE MATCHES THAT NEAR IT.
 

GimR

GimR, Co-Founder of VGBootCamp
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Messages
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Maryland
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VGBC_GimR
8 minutes is more arbitrary then 10 for the fact that the 10 minute timer has a reason behind it where as the 8 minute was just a copy from melee with no real reason behind it. I can truthfully say that almost all matches I was either timed out or timed some one else out would not have gone to time with an 2 extra minutes on the clock. The main reason for the timer is so the tournament is run on time so It's not that viable of a strategy

:phone:
 

-DR3W-

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Apr 13, 2010
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DrewTheAsher
I wonder if other communities have these kinds of problems, and even more drama that comes with them.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,637
I don't see an issue with timeouts in the case of characters like Wario. You can catch wario, almost everyone can, its just catching him safely thats the trick. Stopping things like MK's planking and scrooging is different entirely. It's now more a matter of removing him from where he is being virtually impossible. In an exaggerated (but not far off) sense, MK's planking makes the game relatively unplayable.

Timeouts are a legit tactic. You just have to do it in a way where the primary issue is figuring out where you are going and NOT where you are staying lol
 

Flayl

Smash Hero
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Portugal
Yeah but they're weird lol

But basically if you remove the timer you no longer force the losing player to approach

If you have character A who doesn't have projectiles winning against character B who does, you have the following two scenarios:
- With Timer: Character A focuses on avoiding Character's B projectiles if possible and the timer pressures character B to stop camping/running away and approach.
- Without Timer: Character B just camps as hard as it can because there's a probability of the projectiles giving him back the lead eventually, even though he's losing. So even though Character A is winning he's forced to approach unless he feels he can avoid Character's B projectiles with near 100% accuracy.

That's the easiest example.
 

C.J.

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Joined
Nov 30, 2008
Messages
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Florida
Even easier example:

Marth vs DDD


Why on earth would either character approach the other if they didn't have to. I'm going to stand here and wait for DDD. He is going to wait there and wait for me. With no timer, I'm not forced to approach.
 

Psychoace

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Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,689
Location
Manliest city in Texas
Yeah but they're weird lol

But basically if you remove the timer you no longer force the losing player to approach

If you have character A who doesn't have projectiles winning against character B who does, you have the following two scenarios:
- With Timer: Character A focuses on avoiding Character's B projectiles if possible and the timer pressures character B to stop camping/running away and approach.
- Without Timer: Character B just camps as hard as it can because there's a probability of the projectiles giving him back the lead eventually, even though he's losing. So even though Character A is winning he's forced to approach unless he feels he can avoid Character's B projectiles with near 100% accuracy.

That's the easiest example.
I don't think projectile camping is as bad as people make it out to be. Even so I would say people would plank more than projectile camp, because it's a better option, I think it would be a better trade off in the end. Projectile campers instead of plankers. I also think a lot of the stages cut out a vast majority of projectile camping which would add to a new world of counter picking possibly.

Even easier example:

Marth vs DDD


Why on earth would either character approach the other if they didn't have to. I'm going to stand here and wait for DDD. He is going to wait there and wait for me. With no timer, I'm not forced to approach.
If you want to sit there all day that's your business to hold up the tournament.
 

John12346

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Psycho, you're thinking about things the wrong way. With a timer, it pays to plank while you're winning, and without a timer, it pays to plank while you're losing. We're trying our best to not put the winning player at a disadvantage, because that would be, well, dumb.

Also, Competitive Smash 64 doesn't have a timer because there's no option in the game to have a Stock + Timer match, unfortunately. I'm pretty sure if it was available they'd use it.
 

Psychoace

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Nah I see what you mean. Planking when you're losing wouldn't help though, projectiles might but I don't see them as to much of a hazard but I play falcon *shrugs*. If this would be bad for brawl then why aren't people doing it in smash 64?
 

John12346

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Gameplay's a lot different there. 64 is heavily based around being offensive, considering all of the characters have 0 death combos(provided you follow DI correctly), projectiles move overall slowly and just aren't quite as effective as Melee/Brawl, and planking doesn't work in that game as far as I know.

Time issues probably don't come up just due to the offense-heavy metagame 64 has.
 

Ghostbone

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There are players willing to just camp with up-tilt with Kirby on Hyrule even when losing >.>

The official ruleset for 64 has a 10 minute timer, it just needs to be enforced by something external to the game.
 
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In my experience, a nine minute timer would make brackets run faster. I've TO'd tons of tournaments and have been to tons more and from my experience, the matches, and especially the timers are not what slows down the tournaments. The main factors that slow down a tournament are:

1) Players not playing their matches when they are called.
2) Players not hearing when their matches have been called.
3) Players unable to find their opponents.
4) Players not reporting their sets.
5) Lain

Being a Sonic main, there are certain matchups that usually go to time. The reason they go to time isn't because I'm sitting there going for 8 minutes trying to run the timer out, it's because around the 7 minute mark, both my opponent and I are on our last stocks and usually high percent and my kill moves are unreliable. When I (and many others) look up and see a minute left on the clock, we begin thinking of timing our opponent out at this point.

If an extra minute were added to the timer and we were on last stock high percent, it wouldn't be worth the risk of running away for an extra 2 minutes.

I actually kept a record of the players I have taken to time and will try to recall from memory our stocks and %.

King Beef - Peach
King Chaos - Samus
Raimundo-Esetsu
Iphaze
Omniswell - ICs
pghM@V - Falco
Mr E. - ROB
ArgentStew - Lucario
Jokey - ROB
TehSharpie
Falco400 -Wario
Silhouette - ROB
M2K - MK
DJ Iskascribble - MK
Champ - Falco

Some of these players I have taken to time on more than one occassion. Out of these 15 examples, I recall that 11 of them had both my opponent and I down to our last hit on our last stock with over 100%. The other 4 either had a winner essentially at the 5-6 minute mark or in king beef's example, we both still had 2 stocks left and we just couldn't kill each other.

This shows that 11 of those matches would not have taken any more time, and in fact may have gone faster with an extra minute added to the timer. I also recall several occasions in which I saw the timer and was forced to approach in a less than desirable situation and ending the match because my opponent was trying to time me out. In these situations, the match would have lasted longer but the small amount of time lost in these would be more than gained in matches that are close at the 1 minute mark. Neglecting the time aspect for a minute here, most of these matches would have had a much more "satisfying" ending for both parties if there were a final kill. I often feel cheated out of an honest win or loss when the match was taken to time.



Another argument for adding a minute to the timer is the simple fact that the amount of time lost is so miniscule that it can be neglected. Here's some quick math: I've played anywhere between 500-800 tournament matches in singles brackets in my career. In my career I've timed out approximately 25-30 sets. Therefore, I time someone out on average once in 25 sets.

This means that in a 64 man bracket, there will be approximately 2.5 timeouts. Adding an extra minute to these matches would add an extra 2.5 minutes to an event that takes about 6-9 hours. That would add 0.5% more time to your tournament. This time can easily be gained through a variety of other methods.
 

V

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Messages
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^ great point on how a 9 minute timer barely adds any time to a tournament with the current % of timeouts compared to the problems with efficiency in running tournaments on schedule now.

I was thinking about the point somebody made that when the timer is approaching the one minute mark people start doing risky things. You do realize in chess when a player closes in on their time limit they end up not fully thinking out their moves. Now before somebody says "lol comparing chess to smash you're dumb" chess has been played competitively for centuries. If there was a real issue with time outs I'm sure that they would have figured out a better system considering chess players probably have a higher average IQ than smash players. Yes I know the difference is that in smash your opponent times you out and in chess you control your time. The reason for a timer in both games is to simply control the length of tournaments. Chess tournaments have a more mature player base and they don't have issues with being poorly run whereas smash isn't as organized and has time issues due to it. The main difference is that in smash the time limit can be exploited by your opponent in a way that hinders you. This cannot be avoided with our current standard rules. However, adding 1 additional minute will not affect matches that go to stock, but will affect attempted time outs if we keep the current LGL rule. There's nothing to lose by at least trying it and it isn't a challenge implementing it permanently.

:phone:
 

Psychoace

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I'm aware this discussion has been had before with no apparent result. It's pretty obvious when someone is planking, but yeah some rules would have to be laid down as to what constitutes it.

Added to the ledge grab limit, maybe you could add a certain amount of ledge grabs one can use before they have to return to the stage. Items may even be an answer, if you had food on low or something it could give the planker a reason not to. All in all it probably would be better off to ban metaknight instead of making up certain rules for him and banning certain stages for him. That is after all why most people ban other characters in fighting games. Personally I just think people don't put enough thought into it anymore.
 

onionchowder

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I think extending the timer by 2 minutes is a good idea. The 8-minute timer is mostly a relic from Melee, where games rarely go past 5 minutes unless a player is purposefully pushing the timer. In Brawl, the average match length is much longer despite fewer stocks, so a longer timer makes sense.

I'm aware this discussion has been had before with no apparent result. It's pretty obvious when someone is planking, but yeah some rules would have to be laid down as to what constitutes it.

Added to the ledge grab limit, maybe you could add a certain amount of ledge grabs one can use before they have to return to the stage. Items may even be an answer, if you had food on low or something it could give the planker a reason not to. All in all it probably would be better off to ban metaknight instead of making up certain rules for him and banning certain stages for him. That is after all why most people ban other characters in fighting games. Personally I just think people don't put enough thought into it anymore.
The limited number of re-grabs won't solve planking; players will just touch the stage briefly and continue grabbing the ledge.

The "food on low" idea has been brought up before. I saw a really good post (I forget who) that summarized the general opinion very well -- we just don't want such an awkward, jankity change. It ruins the holistic aesthetic of the game.

As for totally banning MK, that's an issue that's been beaten to death. Here's not the right place for it, there's another thread about it.
 

Mr.-0

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Messages
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Planking, iirc, wasn't to big of an issue at Genesis 2. It was scrouging... I remember. I watched the entire ADHD vs M2K video. And people wonder why SRK doesn't take Smashboards seriously...

Why not just allow custom stages? All of these stages could be like Yoshi's island, so no scrouging, and then with an LGL boom stalling problems are fine. Well, a bit of MK's, at least. Also, a longer time would be good. It's hard to stall for 2 minutes more unless your REALLY gay.

Put in PTAD and GG and JJ too. For MK counters. PTAD has almost no ledges, so it's hard to plank, and I don't think you can scrouge most of the stage. GG and JJ would be harder to scrouge I think, and are just general MK counters. Any stage that is not the best for MK and Is harder to stall on for him should be legal IMO.

Though I still don't get why we don't have a system like MLG where the community makes and sends in maps. We could custom make maps to get rid of alot of stalling issues.

But 10 minute timer would be good, yes. But If MK's STILL managed to stall for 10 minutes... well, :(
 
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Put in PTAD and GG and JJ too. For MK counters. PTAD has almost no ledges, so it's hard to plank, and I don't think you can scrouge most of the stage.
...It has no ledges. Look, I'm sorry, but you sound pretty stupid saying that PTAD sucks for MK. >.> It's not Brinstar, it's not even RC, but it's bad for him in the same way that SV is bad for ICs: it's actually really ****ing good for him.
 

Ghostbone

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...It has no ledges. Look, I'm sorry, but you sound pretty stupid saying that PTAD sucks for MK. >.> It's not Brinstar, it's not even RC, but it's bad for him in the same way that SV is bad for ICs: it's actually really ****ing good for him.
SV is pretty bad for Ice Climbers if MK just runs away from Popo >.>

Also Mr.-O, You can always scrooge on custom stages, as the bottom blast zone is below the lowest you can place a block.
 

Steam

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Japes is a really really really really good MK stage unless he's against really specific opponents. unbelievably easy timeout.

and shuttle loop.
 
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