The timer?

[Ghostbone]

The thing with something like the timer, "we don't like it" is a legitimate argument, since there's no default timer.

All that should matter is what the majority wants.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

^ I do not agree with that. There isn't even any proof that IS what the majority wants. To my knowledge there have not been any polls (I'll even make one just to see where people stand) or petitions to exemplify that.

So if the majority wants Warioware and Shadow Moses legal we should go with that? Such linear thinking doesn't do anyone any good. If we went by "People don't like it" then we wouldn't have actual competitive stages like Pokemon Stadium 2 legal. People "didn't like it" for the longest and then it was proven to be playable and now its a widely accepted stage. Granted I know some people still hate it (name search bait: Stingers and TeeVee ..lmao) but going by that philosophy doesn't always open to the door to new things, it also closes them to things that could actually be worth using.

 

[Ghostbone]

^ I do not agree with that. There isn't even any proof that IS what the majority wants. To my knowledge there have not been any polls (I'll even make one just to see where people stand) or petitions to exemplify that.

So if the majority wants Warioware and Shadow Moses legal we should go with that? Such linear thinking doesn't do anyone any good. If we went by "People don't like it" then we wouldn't have actual competitive stages like Pokemon Stadium 2 legal. People "didn't like it" for the longest and then it was proven to be playable and now its a widely accepted stage. Granted I know some people still hate it (name search bait: Stingers and TeeVee ..lmao) but going by that philosophy doesn't always open to the door to new things, it also closes them to things that could actually be worth using.

The default is to have those stages legal, so we need to prove they are ban worthy.

There is no default for the timer, so we don't have to prove anything.
Not a hard concept

I never claimed to know what the majority wants, I'm just saying that the timer should be whatever the majority wants it to be.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Btw. just a question that popped up in my head.
Why do we play stock-matches and not time-matches?
I'm sure there are some good reason, but nevertheless I'd like to hear them ^^
I'm pretty sure it isnt just subjective choice, or is it?

I think the reasoning behind it has a few things going for it...
-Stock matches are able to provide a clear, definite winner more often (that is, almost all of the time), as opposed to time matches, where far more matches are undecided because of the timer.
-Stock matches allow matches to fill the minimum, rather than the maximum, amount of time-with time, you're given a solid goal; with stock, you're given up to a solid time.
-One-sided stock matches end a lot faster; in a time match between randomscrub07 and M2K, the match will go to time... In a stock match, M2K will probably 3-stock him within a few minutes.
-Low timer counts make for overly campy, unfair gameplay; high timer counts drag out tournaments. Stock+time makes for a good balance.

 

[xDD-Master]

So if the majority wants Warioware and Shadow Moses legal we should go with that? Such linear thinking doesn't do anyone any good.

We should of course.
BUT we KNOW that this is not true for the competitive community.
So that kind of theorycrafting is useless
Anyway I'm on our side, other than that ^^
But I felt like pointing that out!

WW isnt a problem, if the people dont feel like it being one, but it actually is, so the people dont want it!
For example, no one thinks that FD should be banned from competitive smash, even though some people dont like it.
So we shouldnt go by: "What the majority LIKES" we should go by "What the majority actually WANTS (or think is best)"

And on the other point with the PS2 example... yeah it's bad when people are that close minded :/

 

[Player-1]

Idk mayne, randomscrub07 has been steppin' it up a lot lately

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Anymore, I'm not even sure if Melee's format is working in Brawl. We stole Melee's rules and assumed they would translate without really considering how the game is played or how it's different.

And this was mistake #1.

Anyway, you guys might as well increase the timer in a regional/weekly/bi-weekly and RECORD the time it takes to finish singles from an 8 minute tournament vs a 10 minute tournament.

You may want to prepare in the case that it DOES lead to more time being spent.

Better a regional than a national where poor planning could lead to disastrous results.

While you are at it, can you guys test 2 stocks & 8 minutes?

Find a TO do this so that you guys have more data to use.

 

[stingers]

ps2 ****ing sucks
idk why its legal
its only "competitive" in your twisted minds
theres no differences between ps2 and picto but 1 is banned and the other isnt...i dont get it.

 

[Tesh]

ps2 ****ing sucks
idk why its legal
its only "competitive" in your twisted minds
theres no differences between ps2 and picto but 1 is banned and the other isnt...i dont get it.

You can't be serious....

There was NOTHING wrong with Pictochat other than 0 warning about transformations. You can't compare that to a stage that flashes warnings 5 seconds in advance before anything even starts to move.

People just don't like it because it requires proficiency in some techniques that are otherwise useless. Its far less ban-worthy than RC.


OH **** BPC IS HERE TO CLEAN THIS MESS UP!!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

ps2 ****ing sucks
idk why its legal
its only "competitive" in your twisted minds
theres no differences between ps2 and picto but 1 is banned and the other isnt...i dont get it.

Not sure if trolling... It's "competitive" unless you throw a completely biased and quite frankly ludicrous added condition or two in to what "competitive" even means. Also, its randomness is not nearly as pervasive as Pictos, and is largely mitigated by the extremely long warnings.

Also, what does this have to do with the topic?

 

[stingers]

maybe the definition of pervasive is different in holland or wherever insignificant place u live, but i think randomly changing the game physics for extended periods of time is pretty pervasive, and the extremely long warnings being a flashing ****ing picture in the background, give it a rest dude your just trolling the community if u seriously believe this bs

 

[Tesh]

You think background visuals aren't a good enough warning? Works for Frigate, PS1 and Delfino just fine right?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

maybe the definition of pervasive is different in holland or wherever insignificant place u live, but i think randomly changing the game physics for extended periods of time is pretty pervasive, and the extremely long warnings being a flashing ****ing picture in the background, give it a rest dude your just trolling the community if u seriously believe this bs

So... gameplay changes temporarily. Deal with it. Oh boo hoo, my character is a lot floatier for like 30 seconds. Stall-then-fall moves, staying grounded, and massive warning in advance notwithstanding, of course. You already have to deal with stage terrain changing drastically, stages moving that will flat-out kill you if you can't keep up/are in the wrong spot, and stages where **** from the background will attack you. Trust me-dealing with a stage that makes you more floaty is not a big deal, especially because most of the cast can just run away/stall out the transformation.

If you are too single-minded to pay attention to something flashing very clearly and obviously in the background, then you probably are too single-minded to win against a snake who is even remotely competent at setting up traps. Hell, you even know when it's going to show up.

Also, you seem to be missing the part where "intrusive"/"pervasive" equates to banworthy. Good luck making that connection in any sensible manner.

But hey, don't believe me? Ask the BRC, who has the stage legal. Ask the Germans, who banned RC but still have this legal at almost all of their tournaments. Ask anyone who knows a thing about stages and designing a competitive ruleset.

 

[1048576]

PS2 is random, which would be fine if it was easy to avoid damage during those 30 seconds where you are hard-countered by sheer luck, but it isn't, and that's the problem. It's one step away from a random character tourney.

 

[Tesh]

You are stupid and I hope BPC comes back and curses at you.

 

[Cassio]

Well I understand how you could say that community perspective aspect of Timing Out is very important. I won't say it isn't either. The reason I didn't want an explanation about that is because its ALL we ever hear when people ask us to extend to the timer. I came to this thread because I wanted an actual logical argument that is based off of something more than "We don't like it". Like I said, the social aspect IS important, the BBR RC has just heard every argument for it like 1,967 times already is all.

Ahh alright. Yeah I agree.

The only thing I can really say without going in a circle is: It's entirely subjective. It really a matter of how much of a "secondary" outcome we want timing out to be. I mean you can't argue that it isnt a secondary outcome now. I hear your argument but I still wonder why it has to be so black and white from your view; either make timing out more likely or not likely at all. Very few things with making a rule or an amendment is black and white. VERY few people actually attempt to win by these means alone. So at first glance, it seems fine. But when we have a formula that has been working we don't see the reason to add on to it when it could add on time to the tournament itself. It seems like an funny side effect for something that isn't absolutely needed. I'm not saying it would happen automatically but it could.

No problem. Also my view isnt entirely black and white, I understand a lot of other factors go into deciding the timer, which is why I always add "reduce timeouts within reason". My point in the last post was that one of those factors is understood as timeouts are secondary/not equal to stock wins; and any factor looked at alone is going to look black or white. I took for granted that time constraints, precedent, community affect etc. were already well established and made an argument for what you asked for specifically(why reduce timeouts without appealing to community desire).

I also felt it was important because there's a handful of people who staunchly believe that timeout victories deserve equal recognition with little argument as to why aside from "precedent" that doesnt exist (as I mentioned in my last post). At that point arguing becomes pointless, so it needed to be disproven. If it can be agreed that the timer is secondary at least there can be discussion.

And while I agree that the timer becomes a bit subjective, the only thing Id say is that the timer is not exactly entirely subjective since we have guidelines we can follow. Actually we're fortunate in this sense because almost all debate is limited to the range of 10 min at max and 7 at min, and we have valid reasons for not moving into extreme ranges (i.e. 3 min timer or 80 min timer). However theres definitely grey area since were attempting to find a happy medium. I think its important to understand what these aforementioned reasons/guidelines are so we know the grey area were working with and are able to measure success. Theyre well known but not always clearly stated, I mentioned the few I think there are i.e.

-timeouts are not ideal/secondary
-long tournaments are not ideal
-precedence/minimizing changes from a proven forumula
-affect on the communities attitude
-etc.?

Truth is, we don't actually know what exactly will happen because we haven't tested it yet. I am definitely willing to though.

I will say this: We are the discussing playing around with experimental rulesets for future tournaments and such (like on a local scale...baby steps). This is DEFINITELY one of those things that should be tested if we go through with it.

Great to hear, sounds like a good plan. Thanks for paying attention and being open minded.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PS2 is random, which would be fine if it was easy to avoid damage during those 30 seconds where you are hard-countered by sheer luck, but it isn't, and that's the problem. It's one step away from a random character tourney.

I really hope you're trolling.

Ice: play normally. Seriously, a few new strategies, learning how to deal with the slip... No hard countering present. It's a slight gameplay change.
Ground: compare to PS1 water, rock, or fire. Not a big deal. No hard countering present.
Electric: Plank. You can easily avoid damage here. The middle is hard to approach, but it's very hard to hit you on the ledge if your opponent doesn't leave there, and if he does you can get at him. Hell, just walk around on the treadmills and bait your opponent into action. We've been over this. Once both players understand how this part of the stage works, it's not that bad.
Air: camp, stay grounded, whatever. I really want to know what the hell you're talking about, because this bad theorycrafting where you get "hard-countered" on air does not happen. Worst case scenario, you camp the upper blastzones. Not a huge deal.

The point to all of this is hopefully blatantly obvious, but lemme spell it out for you in case you're too dumb to figure it out... This is what we have learned through extensive playtesting in multiple regions. This is the reason why the BRC has the stage legal. This is the reason that it's occasionally present in Europe, an area far more conservative than the US.

The stage is not a problem if both players know what they are doing!

Really, I don't know why this came back up after so long, nor why it came up here. Learn to play.

 

[stingers]

lol man 75m is not a problem if both people know what theyre doing
new pork city's a legit *** stage when both people know what theyre doing
man mushroomy kingdom with two people that know what theyre doing is amazing

 

[Tesh]

BPC, before you waste your time arguing with him, you should know he is just trolling you or he is too stubborn (or stupid) to understand and argument anyway.

 

[stingers]

tesh as long as you leave that stupid font in nobody's going to care about anything you say

 

[Tesh]

As long as you keep your stupid ideals in, nobody is going to care about anything you say.

 

[stingers]

lol my ideals...are that I dont like playing on stupid random stages...jeez when did the whole scene go midwest on me. w/e, like i've noticed that pretty much every person that argues over these stages all day are pretty bad anyways...lol. like bizkits the only good player in the world that actually likes ps2

 

[Tesh]

Well, I'm just humoring you. Its already legal in the most dominant ruleset in the country, so top TOs basically already said "stingers, you are an idiot". End of story.

 

[stingers]

lol why do u gotta bring out the insults...because i dont like ps2...calm down bro o.o

 

[Tesh]

Man, that wasn't even me. I'm just telling you what the BRC is saying about people like you. I'm just a messenger.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Tesh, you do not speak for us. Especially myself. Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion not matter how different it may be from our own. If the BRC wants to state their opinion or something we will. Especially me, since I kind of turned into the Public Relations Officer for the BBR RC. Please keep it civil in here guys. I appreciate what you're trying to do but I am more than capable of representing my group in a positive way. Insults are not needed.

 

[Steam]

This thread is horrible

 

[moomoomamoo]

On that note, it seems that this topic is heading into the phase where theorycrafting about something enough is turning into "you're wrong -insult- blah blah blah troll troll blah" and every 4 or 5 posts is a quick one liner emphasizing how stupid one side of the opinion is vs. another. There's too much repeating happening at this point.

We need results to settle this since obviously we as a community can't agree.

Someone should just keep a record of major (or even local) brawl events and collect all 'remaining time' or 'time-outs' with information about stocks/dmg and characters/stage use.

Knowing what characters/stages are used is important since checking as many different possibilities of what a match can look like through the possible character vs stage combinations will make the collection of data cover all the bases.

This way we can see the effects of what the timer has in a match. Once a good amount as data is collected, we can go back to arguing and etc. This is a good way for all sides of this argument to have more than just theorycrafted beliefs back up our opinions.

The only thing I'd ask from the backroom is to do their best to notify any willing TO to try a different stock/timer setting than normal and have it recorded or documented.

Depending on how having different timer/stock settings may have on a match through recorded results, the backroom / community should decide whether or not if a time-out should be taken into account as just a way to keep tournaments on time or an accepted method of winning a match (made public so the community can have an idea where the change (if needed) will be aimed for in the next rule-set update. Last a decision should be made on what stock/timer settings would be best for a competitive atmosphere.

tl;dr : Enough theorycrafting BS, lets get results from TO and get the backroom to explain whether or not timeouts are good or bad etc. Then change the rules if needed.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

lol man 75m is not a problem if both people know what theyre doing
new pork city's a legit *** stage when both people know what theyre doing
man mushroomy kingdom with two people that know what theyre doing is amazing

"Know what they're doing" meaning abusing the stage to the best of their ability. Stop being a **** about it, you're just wrong.

Look, if you want to get PS2 banned, here's what you do: you get some top-level video footage on the stage that shows it to be a problem. Because right now, we don't have that. We have top-level footage that shows it to be completely legitimate and totally not an issue, and some mid/low-level footage that shows how noobs suck at the stage. Prove me wrong.

 

[stingers]

umm with those requirements, we couldnt use anything you say or do as proof either bpc

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

umm with those requirements, we couldnt use anything you say or do as proof either bpc

Good thing the burden of proof is on you, then. I'm not claiming that what I have is top-level play. Now, Bizkit vs. Nairo from CoT5 on the other hand...

 

[1048576]

I really hope you're trolling.

Ice: play normally. Seriously, a few new strategies, learning how to deal with the slip... No hard countering present. It's a slight gameplay change.
Ground: compare to PS1 water, rock, or fire. Not a big deal. No hard countering present.
Electric: Plank. You can easily avoid damage here. The middle is hard to approach, but it's very hard to hit you on the ledge if your opponent doesn't leave there, and if he does you can get at him. Hell, just walk around on the treadmills and bait your opponent into action. We've been over this. Once both players understand how this part of the stage works, it's not that bad.
Air: camp, stay grounded, whatever. I really want to know what the hell you're talking about, because this bad theorycrafting where you get "hard-countered" on air does not happen. Worst case scenario, you camp the upper blastzones. Not a huge deal.

The point to all of this is hopefully blatantly obvious, but lemme spell it out for you in case you're too dumb to figure it out... This is what we have learned through extensive playtesting in multiple regions. This is the reason why the BRC has the stage legal. This is the reason that it's occasionally present in Europe, an area far more conservative than the US.

The stage is not a problem if both players know what they are doing!

Really, I don't know why this came back up after so long, nor why it came up here. Learn to play.

Air beats slow fallers and characters susceptible to juggling, yes? I would have no problem with the stage if you could pre-select which transformation you get.

Edit: It reflects more on your intelligence than mine that the only reason you can come up with that I would hold the opinion I do is because I'm stoopid. http://www.prettyfedup.com/pfu/philosophical/whyarepeoplesostupid2.htm Read that. It helped me not get so upset over opinions I disagree with.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Air beats slow fallers and characters susceptible to juggling, yes? I would have no problem with the stage if you could pre-select which transformation you get.

Not really. You're just factually wrong.

Also, ban PS1?

Edit: It reflects more on your intelligence than mine that the only reason you can come up with that I would hold the opinion I do is because I'm stoopid. http://www.prettyfedup.com/pfu/philosophical/whyarepeoplesostupid2.htm Read that. It helped me not get so upset over opinions I disagree with.

2 drunk 2 read that ****

 

[1048576]

It's pretty easy to stall out the PS1 transformations. Further I don't think any effect matchups too dramatically. If you're saying its the same for PS2 then fair enough. I agree with you under those conditions.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's pretty easy to stall out the PS1 transformations. Further I don't think any effect matchups too dramatically. If you're saying its the same for PS2 then fair enough. I agree with you under those conditions.

Yep, pretty much. Given a decent level of play from both players, PS2 really isn't that different from Ps1.

 

[WindMajor]

Air beats slow fallers and characters susceptible to juggling, yes? I would have no problem with the stage if you could pre-select which transformation you get.

This is where your skills of adaptation are supposed to kick in.

 

[Tesh]

I hate it when I go to frigate hoping to gimp people and SUDDENLY I AM RANDOMLY HARD COUNTED BY 2 LEDGES AND PLATFORMS SAVING PEOPLE!!! And when I go to Delfino Plaza for sharking and platform play and SUDDENLY I AM RANDOMLY HARD COUNTERED BY SOLID GROUND AND EMPTY AIRSPACE. Also when I go to Lylat and I am SUDDENLY HARD COUNTERED BY THE TILTING STAGE.

If only the ruleset had 12 bans I wouldn't get hard countered by stuff.

 

[1048576]

Most things sound absurd when you exaggerate all meaning out of them. Reminds me of Obama proposing a modest tax increase for the top 1% and all the right-wing headlines we're like "OBAMA SUPPORTS WHITE SLAVERY." You guys are like that.

Anyway the keywords are random and hardcounter. Delfino follows a pattern and most of the transformations are flat + plat. Lylat doesn't affect much, etc...

If I'm Peach and the stage goes to air I could very well see losing whereas if I had gone with my secondary or if the stage transformed differently I would have won. It seems like a common enough occurrence that this randomness should be removed from the game.

I'd like to know how you become a mod when the best of your knowledge for how to overcome PS2 air is "adapt." Do me a favor. Before you troll like a R-E-T-A-R-D, run your argument through the following hypothetical: "Hyrule should be legal because *insert your argument*. If it still makes sense, then you should reconsider your position.

 

[Tesh]

You can't "adapt" to circle camping on hyrule and leaning all about it won't make it less harmful to your character. Peach does fine on the Air phase, but assuming she doesn't, thats just a CP quality. The pattern on Ps2 is the same as Ps1. You get a warning and there are only 4 possibilities anyway. As far as being countered by the stage, you are much more likely to die early as Peach because of a Delfino transformation if you don't know how to deal with it. The portion with the low ceiling, or a walkoff section can determine who gets the advantage just as much as the Air phase. Alot of players have barely played competitive matches on Ps2 because its rarely been legal due to bias. Look bad at 08 vids of people being new to Lylat, Delfino, Halberd etc. and you will see people SDing, dying super early and whatnot because they don't understand the stage.

Keep in mind that when you compare to Hyrule, most of the transformations in the game on Delfino, Castle Siege and all the pokemon stadiums would be banned if they weren't temporary. Air phase lends itself to the same camping issues as Ps1, but its a temporary thing so its not a "hard counter" situation like Hyrule.

Also being a mod has nothing to do with being knowledgeable or right about the game. Its just about keeping order on the forums and some sense of maturity.

Also here is a top peach on Ps2 if you were serious about that example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqetdkJoEv8

I see no random hard countering.

 

[Yung Mei]

So one-sided matches don't take up more time than they need too. Ever see a 3 stock in under 2 minutes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m35gJ2cAz4o

suprised no one posted this :V