The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

Kinzer · Dec 18, 2009

-NaPPy said:
or maybe they're just ahead of us and already know the truth alot of ******** sonic fanboys have yet to come to terms with.

Really convincing up until I saw Link anywhere outside bottom 5.

UMad.

-Mars- · Dec 18, 2009

Sleepy God said:
♪ Still, Zelda + Sheik being that high, I have to see some Japanese Zelda and Sheik gameplay, anyone know where some are? †

It's not that great lmao.

phi1ny3 · Dec 18, 2009

Wow Lucario has a lot of balanced MUs... but less losses in the right MUs imo (only Snake/D3 are bad, but still winnable, but he definitely has issues with MK and the like). He also has a lot less advantaged MUs, probably due to the fact that he's like one of the more average characters in this game minus the aura factor.

Basically... we look to extreme in our MUs compared to theirs, but they value high strength over solidity, which explains Lucario's decent MUs but meh placement. In reality, it's because of these varied strengths that allow him to perform reasonably well.

napZzz · Dec 18, 2009

Kinzer said:
Really convincing up until I saw Link anywhere outside bottom 5.

UMad.

so, whats the point of this post? lol

Kinzer · Dec 18, 2009

Meh I don't know, you were quite subtle with your previous post.

You got me curious, what do the Japanese know about Sonic that we don't?

Katakiri · Dec 18, 2009

I'll edit the chart with English names tomorrow if it really bugs you that much.
______________

So I went on Nico to find some Japanese Brawl tourney play and I think I can firmly say IMO Japan's metagame > North America's metagame. EYE EM OH.

The miss/hit ratio seems much better than ours. Much less wasted/missed attacks. They definitely capitalize on their kills better. IMO
Not only do they seem to play more precisely than we do, but it's very entertaining and interesting to watch. IMO
It's kind of...dare I say....Melee-ish. *runs*

I'm starting to see why Zelda+Sheik is so high as well. They really capitalize on the range that Sheik's legs give her. Not to mention her speed as well. Zelda still looks like Sheik's kill move to me...IMO
______________

I'm bookmarking all these videos so I can just post them all in on post tomorrow.

oh and IMO. ಠ_ಠ

napZzz · Dec 18, 2009

Kinzer said:
Meh I don't know, you were quite subtle with your previous post.

You got me curious, what do the Japanese know about Sonic that we don't?

that if you can SDI properly and play it out right sonic is trash and cant do anything. his attacks have no priority, he struggles to get a kill move vs. most characters in the game, and theres just nothign good about him. He's like a really really bad wario, a character who tries to rely on a bunch of dumb tricks and un predictability to rack damage. But what does it matter when sonics never going to land a kill move lol.

BlazingKatakiri said:
I'll edit the chart with English names tomorrow if it really bugs you that much.
______________

So I went on Nico to find some Japanese Brawl tourney play and I think I can firmly say IMO Japan's metagame > North America's metagame. EYE EM OH.

The miss/hit ratio seems much better than ours. Much less wasted/missed attacks. They definitely capitalize on their kills better. IMO
Not only do they seem to play more precisely than we do, but it's very entertaining and interesting to watch. IMO
It's kind of...dare I say....Melee-ish. *runs*

I'm starting to see why Zelda+Sheik is so high as well. They really capitalize on the range that Sheik's legs give her. Not to mention her speed as well. Zelda still looks like Sheik's kill move to me...IMO
______________

I'm bookmarking all these videos so I can just post them all in on post tomorrow.

oh and IMO. ಠ_ಠ

I agree.

Kinzer · Dec 18, 2009

-NaPPy said:
that if you can SDI properly and play it out right sonic is trash and cant do anything. his attacks have no priority, he struggles to get a kill move vs. most characters in the game, and theres just nothign good about him. He's like a really really bad wario, a character who tries to rely on a bunch of dumb tricks and un predictability to rack damage. But what does it matter when sonics never going to land a kill move lol.

=>

Somewhat right at least.

Not going to bother arguing about this though, I'm sure that neither of us could care less about this though.

I know it's not my problem anyway.

Katakiri · Dec 18, 2009

Well, Sonic has always been the essence of a mid-tier character to me.

He's one of the 3 characters of extremes.

-Meta Knight who either has advantageous match ups or even match ups.
-Bowser who has either even match ups or disadvantageous match ups.
-And then there's Sonic who has no true good nor bad match ups.

He also falls under the exact same category as Marth as well.

Just like Marth, Sonic has no tricks or gimmicks to help him.
At the same time, there's no tricks or gimmicks that can truly shutdown Sonic either.
He will always reflect the skill of the person controlling him and nothing more.

Those facts remain true to Sonic regardless of your region or the current state of the metagame.
Those facts not only make Sonic mid-tier, but they are also what makes him tourney-viable.

I'm just going to stop right there because the last thing I want to see is another '08-like Sonic discussion.

culexus・wau · Dec 18, 2009

BlazingKatakiri said:
I'm fairly sure no one posted this yet, so here's a match-up chart for you all to gut open like a fish. Add this to the OP if you like.

Did an Edited/Hard Translated for those who can't read kana/too lazy to look back and forth

If you can you link us all the nico vids of interest o;

Kuraudo · Dec 18, 2009

BlazingKatakiri said:
Well, Sonic has always been the essence of a mid-tier character to me.

He's one of the 3 characters of extremes.

-Meta Knight who either has advantageous match ups or even match ups.
-Bowser who has either even match ups or disadvantageous match ups.
-And then there's Sonic who has no true good nor bad match ups.

He also falls under the exact same category as Marth as well.

Just like Marth, Sonic has no tricks or gimmicks to help him.
At the same time, there's no tricks or gimmicks that can truly shutdown Sonic either.
He will always reflect the skill of the person controlling him and nothing more.

Those facts remain true to Sonic regardless of your region or the current state of the metagame.
Those facts not only make Sonic mid-tier, but they are also what makes him tourney-viable.

I'm just going to stop right there because the last thing I want to see is another '08-like Sonic discussion.

... No tricks or gimmicks to help him? I agree with your other points, but really? The tricks and gimmicks are what cast the illusion of our mid-tier status to begin with. LOL

I think he's mid-tier, for those tricks and gimmicks, complimenting his punishment game thanks to his speed, and superb recovery. Lots of other factors here as well, but. Yeah, tricks and gimmicks. They're awesome.

culexus・wau · Dec 18, 2009

There is only 1 thing I 100% SURE KNOW about sonic.

He is a ***** to catch if he ever gets the lead.

I think if sonic ran away from me all the time I'd ragequit VS sonics.

But I'm VERY interested in seeing the Japanese play of sheik/zelda

Kuraudo · Dec 18, 2009

You are so right about that. XD;

Everyone gets ticked fighting me. I play an aggro Sonic, but even then it's hard for people to catch me. XD

Flayl · Dec 18, 2009

Bowser has good matchups and it kinda bugs me it's almost 2010 and people still aren't willing to admit it lol

KuroganeHammer · Dec 18, 2009

FlameWaveK said:
But I'm VERY interested in seeing the Japanese play of sheik/zelda

Same.

Anyone know of any?

DMG · Dec 18, 2009

Bowser has decent matchups.

Decent.

Flayl · Dec 18, 2009

po-tae-to po-tah-to

I wasn't implying he had any major advantages

Laem · Dec 18, 2009

BlazingKatakiri said:
I'll edit the chart with English names tomorrow if it really bugs you that much.
______________

So I went on Nico to find some Japanese Brawl tourney play and I think I can firmly say IMO Japan's metagame > North America's metagame. EYE EM OH.

The miss/hit ratio seems much better than ours. Much less wasted/missed attacks. They definitely capitalize on their kills better. IMO
Not only do they seem to play more precisely than we do, but it's very entertaining and interesting to watch. IMO
It's kind of...dare I say....Melee-ish. *runs*

Made my day *agrees and runs with you*

Some ratio's are pretty awesome, like wolf dedede 45-55, and mk not having anything better than 65-35

#HBC | Red Ryu · Dec 18, 2009

Link really gets a lot of credit overseas.

Yink · Dec 18, 2009

Red Ryu said:
Link really gets a lot of credit overseas.

You beat me. I was about to say the same, I find it kind of cool that he does.

N.A.G.A.C.E · Dec 18, 2009

i would say on a whole i think the US meta game is better but i might be bias.

what i will say is that Japan has some characters better developed then the US and the US have some characters more developed then Japan. This is kinda obvious in are tier list and MU charts.

One example is Pit. there are very few pits in the US and even fewer doing anything noteworthy while in Japan he seems to be a more played character who is doing well in tourneys. The same can be said for zelda/shiek in japan.

While in America the ic's and Sonic are more developed and because of this are much higher ranked on are tier lists. This is proven even more by the Japanese MU chart that has the Ganon IC MU only as a 6.5 adv for the IC's

so in the end its hard to say who is better since its more about the development of the characters and no matter who is better we both have plenty to learn from each other

Nefarious B · Dec 19, 2009

I don't think those matchups are weighted the same as ours to be honest. Some of them don't make any sense if you try and translate their 60-40 to our 60-40

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Dec 19, 2009

honestly people need to stop acting like Japan is ***. They're metagame is more than likely ahead of ours. The things we be doing we get from that buffered dthrows and crap. It's laughable when people think that they have brought any character past a level of what they think they're playing them at. Also think that people in japan would destroy 99% of the people posting in this thread talkN **** about Japan's metagame.

Albert. · Dec 19, 2009

Nic64 said:
I play almost every day and make tons of mistakes, moar liek "be asian and you wouldn't make mistakes either" D:

lmao best post in this thread

Flayl · Dec 19, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
honestly people need to stop acting like Japan is ***. They're metagame is more than likely ahead of ours. The things we be doing we get from that buffered dthrows and crap. It's laughable when people think that they have brought any character past a level of what they think they're playing them at. Also think that people in japan would destroy 99% of the people posting in this thread talkN **** about Japan's metagame.

I don't think being blindly supportive of the Japanese metagame makes you appear any less biased lol.

J4pu · Dec 19, 2009

^ agreed

-Ran · Dec 19, 2009

BlazingKatakiri said:
I think I can firmly say IMO Japan's metagame > North America's metagame. EYE EM OH.

The miss/hit ratio seems much better than ours. Much less wasted/missed attacks. They definitely capitalize on their kills better. IMO
Not only do they seem to play more precisely than we do, but it's very entertaining and interesting to watch. IMO
It's kind of...dare I say....Melee-ish. *runs*

Most attacks at a high level that miss are intentional to safely bait reactions. We do this since our opponents are typically on the ground prepared to perfect/shield grab our options. So we have to create the illusion of poorly spaced moves to get them to go into shield drop lag, or to get them to air/spot dodge so that we can punish properly.

For example, with Marth I'll nair at my opponent after a fast fall when they are at 70% and near an edge when I know that they are going to shield or attempt to attack. I intentionally miss the attack to bait the reaction, because I can auto-cancel the Nair into a perfectly spaced tipped-forward Smash. Most people when they see a miss-paced Nair attempt to dash in to punish, or use their longest reaching move. To an observer, it would appear that I missed my attack, and 'got lucky' with a forward smash.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Dec 19, 2009

Flayl said:
I don't think being blindly supportive of the Japanese metagame makes you appear any less biased lol.

It's Japan. I have yet to see a fighting game where they didn't dominate in.

Deleted member · Dec 19, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
It's Japan. I have yet to see a fighting game where they didn't dominate in.

super smash bros. melee

Eddie G · Dec 19, 2009

^ KABLAM! xD

Tommy_G · Dec 19, 2009

I love how the worst matchup in the game is Luigi vs Dedede at 2.5 : 7.5

Until someone posts videos of japanese gameplay, this tier list means nothing to me.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Dec 19, 2009

Umbreon said:
super smash bros. melee

really? What tourney did this happen at?

Tommy_G · Dec 19, 2009

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
really? What tourney did this happen at?

I'm pretty sure Aniki, Captain Jack, Masashi, Bombsoldier, Korius, and Mikael lost to America's top players the last time they played.

And super smash bros. 64. to your last question

ghaudephaede010 · Dec 19, 2009

Tommy_G said:
I love how the worst matchup in the game is Luigi vs Dedede at 2.5 : 7.5

Until someone posts videos of japanese gameplay, this tier list means nothing to me.

1) Luigi v Dedede is a pretty bad match up but I think Lucas v Dedede is worse.

2) Not sure why their tier list would mean nothing to you, the way I see it, we know what to expect and how they think, just by looking at their tier list. It does not mean they understand the game better, it just means we can look at things with a different view and expand.

Lawkk · Dec 19, 2009

Wtf are you guys talking bout. Marvel is what Japan sucks at.

gallax · Dec 19, 2009

Tommy_G said:
I love how the worst matchup in the game is Luigi vs Dedede at 2.5 : 7.5

Until someone posts videos of japanese gameplay, this tier list means nothing to me.

you read it wrong. lucas is the 2.5 : 7.5

Tommy_G · Dec 19, 2009

ghaudephaede010 said:
1) Luigi v Dedede is a pretty bad match up but I think Lucas v Dedede is worse.

2) Not sure why their tier list would mean nothing to you, the way I see it, we know what to expect and how they think, just by looking at their tier list. It does not mean they understand the game better, it just means we can look at things with a different view and expand.

I can state certain characters are better than others, but I have no credibility until people see videos and deem me credible.

Same thing with Japan. I'm not going to assume they're godly amazing until I see them play. I'm also not going to assume that they're bad until I see them play.

And I said that about the match ups not in a sarcastic way. In America's tier list, there are multiple less-than-or-equal-to-10:90 match ups.

Oh really? regardless, my statement still stands just for lucas instead of luigi.

read the above line.
I'm not discrediting the match up as being wrong, I simply think it's kinda funny how that's the worst possible match up in the whole game.

phi1ny3 · Dec 19, 2009

Ran Iji said:
Most attacks at a high level that miss are intentional to safely bait reactions. We do this since our opponents are typically on the ground prepared to perfect/shield grab our options. So we have to create the illusion of poorly spaced moves to get them to go into shield drop lag, or to get them to air/spot dodge so that we can punish properly.

For example, with Marth I'll nair at my opponent after a fast fall when they are at 70% and near an edge when I know that they are going to shield or attempt to attack. I intentionally miss the attack to bait the reaction, because I can auto-cancel the Nair into a perfectly spaced tipped-forward Smash. Most people when they see a miss-paced Nair attempt to dash in to punish, or use their longest reaching move. To an observer, it would appear that I missed my attack, and 'got lucky' with a forward smash.

The sad thing is, this is still used at high levels of play, the difference in getting a hit from a risk like this or being punished is usually a few frames if the other person knows the MU (I'm not counting if the guy has never played the MU before and gets creamed for being sloppy lol), and often perfection like this can't be humanly accomplished even at high levels.

TheMike · Dec 19, 2009

Tommy_G said:
Until someone posts videos of japanese gameplay, this tier list means nothing to me.

theunabletable · Dec 19, 2009

^Oh good ****.

I have some stuff to watch now

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