The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

[Kinzer]

Screw that, who needs a baseball bat when I can just stab you in the eye?!

...This is on-topic because we're speaking in metaphors.

 

[Kuraudo]

Not our fault. Sonic just hates spikes.

 

[Kinzer]

Now this is off-topic because it's ironic Sonic has quills.

So yeah, agreed that Sonic = mid-tires?

 

[humble]

This is just a thought I had, with little background on sonic I may be completely off but...

So far in this thread the Sonic mains have argued that he is good because he has alot of options, right? But how many of those options serve the same purpose? Say for example sonic is using his vB and flying across the stage, right? well, time a pivot grab. What options does sonic have? turn around takes to long for you to come back, jumping out won't hit me and you can't do it fast enough to punish, keep going get grabbed, he has nothing in that situation that wins for him.

On an off note for a second, what can anyone do against a quick shield? Only 3 things beat shields, grabs, shield pokes, and shield pops. Shield pops will almost never happen, and isn't a real option against shields. Going for a shield poke takes repeated attempts to deteriorate the shield and is fairly tough. So really the most viable option is grabs, except for the fact that they are only capable of being performed on the ground (by the majority of the cast) they have little range (again, majority of the cast) and they are predictable. So when you use a shield, your opponent has had all offensive capabilities hamstrung. The best option when your opponent shields is to do nothing. All offensive options to take against a shield are poor, so it is wiser to back off and not get punished for attempting to use the poor options. Backing off keeps the situation neutral and is in your best interest, as they soon must drop their shields opening up your options again. This is why I think shields are incredible tools, underused, and contributors to the staling and stalling going on in Brawl.

 

[DMG]

Shielding is good and I believe it is underrated.

You could have said that dude. Even I when I write long essays say short stuff like that.

 

[humble]

Shielding is good and I believe it is underrated.

You could have said that dude. Even I when I write long essays say short stuff like that.

I put it in the last sentence. ;P

 

[Browny]

This is just a thought I had, with little background on sonic I may be completely off but...

So far in this thread the Sonic mains have argued that he is good because he has alot of options, right? But how many of those options serve the same purpose? Say for example sonic is using his vB and flying across the stage, right? well, time a pivot grab. What options does sonic have? turn around takes to long for you to come back, jumping out won't hit me and you can't do it fast enough to punish, keep going get grabbed, he has nothing in that situation that wins for him.

And thats why spindash is never used as a direct approach. and if the enemy is in a neutral position before the spindash would hit, by a timing error of the sonic player, it will usually be jump cancelled well out of the enemies range so they cant do anything about it anyway.

 

[humble]

And thats why spindash is never used as a direct approach. and if the enemy is in a neutral position before the spindash would hit, by a timing error of the sonic player, it will usually be jump cancelled well out of the enemies range so they cant do anything about it anyway.

That was an extreme example, but say sonic does jump cancel it out of range- what then? what can he do if they just toss up shield when he gets close? no aerial grab, if he lands to pull off a grab then he gets shield grabbed/eats OOS punishment, and none of his aerials will poke or provide good shield pressure- so he has to reset the situation to neutral, and his options are inviable.

 

[Kinzer]

You do realize that if we're talking ASC here, forget the fact that it drains a heavy amount from the shield, it can be canceled into a shieldgrab, yes?

If we're going by direct SDR approach, then something is seriously wrong here on the Sonic player's part. It's just Sonic's run (and usually not really, who has time to charge it?) with a hitbox and less options than a standard run offers.

And since you happen to mention pivot grabs... Isn't there a finite amount of ground you have to work with (unless you're talking walk-offs, in which case if the opponent keeps doing that, they will eventually kill themselves from fear factor. )?

But now this is just turning into a he says she says argument. People can go on forever about "well, what if...", and the opposite can be done as well with "then..."

Really though, it'd be more convincing if it weren't direct SDR approaches. Of course Sonic sucks if you're still stuck in March '08 Metagame.

 

[Conviction]

This reminds how people still think Fox is still in '08s metagame and say dair,utilt,usmash,Lasers. T.T

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Once Pika and Marth are used more in Japan you'll see a big difference in that list.

 

[Conviction]

Marth is used a lot in Japan that's why there aren't many Pikas >.>

 

[-Axis-]

Marth is used a lot in Japan that's why there aren't many Pikas >.>

We should start a fund to ship Anther over to Japan. Fox'll drop faster than General Electric on Black Tuesday.

 

[Conviction]

We should start a fund to ship Anther over to Japan. Fox'll drop faster than General Electric on Black Tuesday.

Maybe you didn't read there are MARTHs there which COUNTER pika. Not be rude but that's the whole the non-existance of pika <.<

 

[memphischains]

i really didn't want to read about why sonic does or doesn't suck, just why japan doesn't play him

 

[dawall250]

i think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, namely that it appears the tier lists appears to go down based on killing ability, which sonic does lack. not sure where the post is, but i don't wanna look through 20+ pages.

 

[Conviction]

Yea Kalm made the post. It does make sense to me.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Maybe you didn't read there are MARTHs there which COUNTER pika. Not be rude but that's the whole the non-existance of pika <.<

Pika kills fox harder.

 

[Conviction]

Marth will keep pika mains from growing like a disease is my point. So Pika won't make it far in Japan.

And Pika is 70:30 or 65:35 Pika no LOL like it used to be.

 

[-Axis-]

Maybe you didn't read there are MARTHs there which COUNTER pika. Not be rude but that's the whole the non-existance of pika <.<

It was a joke. >.>

But here's something interesting. Ness and Lucas are next to each other in, what, two tier lists? It's also pretty generally accepted that Ness>Lucas. But now, looking at Japan's list, we see a rather large gap between them, with Lucas coming out on top. What are the reasons for this? Perhaps the player that made the list had limited knowledge of the Mother boys?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm the player Pierce is describing. It was pretty amusing to read his post, I see a lot of myself in that.

While at a tourney yesterday I met a guy named Rien who called the way I play "zombie mode." That's when I do basic followups to attacks but usually get punished because my basic follow-ups are just that, basic. For instance, if I rush in for a dash attack and it connects, the opponent is either sent upwards or to the side. For ZSS, upwards means I want to start juggling, which I'll usually do, but also usually fail at doing because the opponent knows I want it.

The problem comes when you try to integrate this knowledge into your game. Do some people have that and others don't? I'm not sure, but it has been a real struggle for me. I'm still not even sure what I'm looking for sometimes. Because brawl lacks hitstun and because it's very hard to punish many things on reaction, we rely on our ability to read and predict our opponents, but I find myself unable to find patterns in my opponent's gameplay because I'm not sure where I'm supposed to be looking for them.

TL;DR: Pierce is right, I (we?) do suck.

 

[Chuee]

I thought Marth Pika was only 60-40.............................

 

[Anther]

Maybe you didn't read there are MARTHs there which COUNTER pika. Not be rude but that's the whole the non-existance of pika <.<

Pika ain't scared of no marth!

SFP: The majority of the things you're looking for are areas where most players have limited choices. Your opponent when jumpnig eventually has to land, and when you attack they have to shield. If you can ever pin down those traits, your mind'll start branching and looking for more things. You just have to push yourself to get over the first thinking hump. D=

 

[memphischains]

i think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, namely that it appears the tier lists appears to go down based on killing ability, which sonic does lack. not sure where the post is, but i don't wanna look through 20+ pages.

Yea Kalm made the post. It does make sense to me.

I read that post

Saying "Sonic lacks in kill ability" is a empty statement, and it wasn't from the OPer who said he would look into it and get an opinion from a Japanese player.


I disagree with the statement that he lacks in killing ability, but agree with that he lacks killing power. Not to get into any semantics about it or anything, I would just like to hear something from the OPer.

 

[some-guy]

It was a joke. >.>

But here's something interesting. Ness and Lucas are next to each other in, what, two tier lists? It's also pretty generally accepted that Ness>Lucas. But now, looking at Japan's list, we see a rather large gap between them, with Lucas coming out on top. What are the reasons for this? Perhaps the player that made the list had limited knowledge of the Mother boys?

Ness is better, Poocas is just a more annoying character. >________>

 

[Conviction]

Pika ain't scared of no marth!

SFP: The majority of the things you're looking for are areas where most players have limited choices. Your opponent when jumpnig eventually has to land, and when you attack they have to shield. If you can ever pin down those traits, your mind'll start branching and looking for more things. You just have to push yourself to get over the first thinking hump. D=

Uh-oh Anther is gonna 3-stock my Fox T.T

Doesn't pika have some troubles with marth though.


P.S. When I put up the ratios I was talking about Fox vs. Pika.

 

[memphischains]

sooo, an update would be sweet

 

[Attila_]

this thread kinda got a little off track, and ive been busy with uni too, so i kinda lost motivation with it. that being said, ive been talking to a few people recently (such as yonezmi, best pikachu in japan) so ive learnt a thing or two.

what do you guys want to know?

 

[phi1ny3]

Who's the best Lucario there, if there is one that's of big reputation?

It isn't the guy in my video is it?

 

[laki]

Were is brawl played at in japan. I'm in the air force and hope to get stationed there so I can play some Brawl/Sf/Magic with the ****.

I'd end up being either in Okinawa or 50 miles north of Tokyo if all goes well.

 

[Kaffei]

Were is brawl played at in japan. I'm in the air force and hope to get stationed there so I can play some Brawl/Sf/Magic with the ****.

I'd end up being either in Okinawa or 50 miles north of Tokyo if all goes well.

Air force.. So cool.. I want to be a Pilot.
@previous posts: Yeah, who is the best Lucario?

 

[J4pu]

I'd like some showcase videos of top japanese players, preferably with some character variety
putting them in the OP would probably be best if you did this

 

[Katakiri]

I'm fairly sure no one posted this yet, so here's a match-up chart for you all to gut open like a fish. Add this to the OP if you like.

How points work:

5 = Even MU
5< = Advantage
>5 = Disadvantage

Totals:
The bar is set at 175 being the average for total match-up points.

Subtract 175 from their total points to get their final point count.

Any character with less that 175 total points will have a negative number in the final point count.


Now I'll add tiers and English translations to it and:

25+ (S+)
メタナイト Meta Knight

20+ (S)
スネーク Snake
ファルコ Falco
デデデ Dedede

10+ (A)
マルス Mars (Marth)
ピット Pitt
ワリオ Wario
フォックス Fox
ゲーム＆ウォッチ Game & Watch
ゼルダ+シーク Zelda + Sheik
ディディ Diddy
ウルフ Wolf

1+ (B)
オリマー Orima (Olimar)
ロボット Robots
ゼロスーツサムス Zerosutsusamusu
アイスクライマー Ice Climber
トゥーンリンク Tounrinku (inb4whoisthis? (Toon Link))
ピカチュウ Pikachu
カービィ Kirby
ルカリオ Luke Rio (Lucario)

0- (C)
1イク Ike
ピーチ Peach
マリオ Mario
リュカ Lucas
ドンキー Donkey

10- (D)
ルイージ Luigi
ポケモントレーナー Pokemontorena (PT)
リンク Link
0ッシー Yoshi
クッパ Bowser
ソニック Sonic
サムス Sams
ネス Ness

20- (E)
ファルコン Falcon

25- (F)
ガノン Ganon
プリン Purine

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Still, Zelda + Sheik being that high, I have to see some Japanese Zelda and Sheik gameplay, anyone know where some are? †

 

[Kaffei]

Dang TL's MUs are so much better on this.

 

[-Ran]

I also noticed a lack of 'unwinnables.'

 

[napZzz]

Gains 2000 EXP; 200 Gil

In all seriousness, it's easy to say that Sonic is just severely underestimated/underplayed in Japan. That's my say, and not much else I can contribute.

or maybe they're just ahead of us and already know the truth alot of ******** sonic fanboys have yet to come to terms with.

 

[Katakiri]

I would assume that Japan has more lenient numbers for match ups as we do here. At least for the sake of this particular list.

Think about it. If a match-up like say DK vs Dedede were to be any lower than what it is right now, (2.5/7.5) DK would fall and Dedede would rise significantly, just due to this one Match Up.

All of a sudden Dedede would be higher than Snake on this list.
________

I'll probably search for some Japanese videos outside on some Japanese sites since this list does have me curious about certain MUs.

 

[J4pu]

does anybody want to do an edit on the Japanese chart to put the names in english? trying to look back and forth is giving me a headache, I'm sure it would help anybody else that can't read japanese as well

 

[Conti]

Japan is like crazy... interesting but crazy... [you think they wud be better then us cuz they are all high tech and get the games before us] but instead there is definately a skill gap,

I also lol cuz every MK i see in japanese videos underuse Nado... [maybe japanese players dont like playing gay] {execpt their pro pit}... and like all of their playstyles are like completely different, some are more flashy, some from first glance just go all aggro. and throw out random combo's like YUI (he's pretty good but not Phenominal)and some set their tents up on that ledge and camp all day...

The thing i found most interesting was how Their Diddy's barley incorperate Bannanas into their game, like instead how the general american diddy plays [focusing on banana control/stage control, punishing with banana into a combo, having banana in hand 75% of the time]. They do it here and there but its not their main focus, (imo. i beleive our playstyles /metagame for diddy just makes soo much more sense and i hope that japan and other countries can catch up to us) Neat Stuff, their tier list is wack but at the same time, u think of how some of these characters may have more potential and we may not see it... I am against Pit being so high tho, im sorry, i Secondary pit and i think he's mid tier for life... even in Japan he cant avoid the fact of having Poor KO Power... Good Thread, Update this if things change in the future