The State of Brawl in Japan: 3rd Update 14/02/10

[DMG]

I've seen a plethora of videos of Japan as they have evolved/as time has passed and I still think overall they are behind.

 

[Demp]

It isn't a cultural thing, it is the same game with the same mechanics and there exists a larger, more advanced and more competitive scene here in the States.

I beg to differ. Take Japanese Pit's voice for example. If I was playing against Masachi I would want to throw my controller at his face mid-game.

NANANANANANANANNANANANANANANANA

 

[Attila_]

just did a fairly massive update in the op... i recommend having a look...

 

[Toby.]

hey attila

 

[Dekar289]

i can confirm that shmot is very good looking

 

[swordgard]

Please try to get a vid of a good ics vs a good MK, and show me why ics get *****.

 

[Shaya]

They SDI blizzard into a fully charged fsmash, swordgard, that breaks shields, btw.
ICs can't win.

Attila,
why do they have to play so slowwwwww?
And how come I never hear them perfect shield anything?

 

[tibs7]

swordgard obviously has no clue.....

 

[Attila_]

hey attila

o hey toby

i can confirm that shmot is very good looking

well thanks dekar

Please try to get a vid of a good ics vs a good MK, and show me why ics get *****.

actually couldnt find on. but for all the reasons ive previously mentioned a bunch of times.

They SDI blizzard into a fully charged fsmash, swordgard, that breaks shields, btw.
ICs can't win.

Attila,
why do they have to play so slowwwwww?
And how come I never hear them perfect shield anything?

i mention that they play slow. its a caution thing, i think. very precise. if youre slow, youre less likely to make mistakes.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nice update

Lol bo1
But nice rule against the flying, and smart thinking on the sudden death.

 

[swordgard]

o hey toby



well thanks dekar



actually couldnt find on. but for all the reasons ive previously mentioned a bunch of times.



i mention that they play slow. its a caution thing, i think. very precise. if youre slow, youre less likely to make mistakes.

Because of perfect spacing? I could say another person has perfect mindgames thus countering it. I want vids of this "perfect" spacing. If there was any type of perfect spacing, then the player with this would never lose.

EDIT: What is bracket B for?

 

[Attila_]

i actually think sudden death may not be such a bad idea either. just to stop the gay.

@swordgard: ill get you a video when i get one. the 'b' bracket gives everyone who doesnt make it through pools a chance to have a tournament themselves, and gives a chance for people who got gayed in pools to prove that they arent weak.

 

[swordgard]

Can anyone explain to me why a player needs an advantage when they lose(counterpicking stages), why do we have non neutral stages?


Maybe the japanese have it right.

 

[HeroMystic]

the 'b' bracket gives everyone who doesnt make it through pools a chance to have a tournament themselves, and gives a chance for people who got gayed in pools to prove that they arent weak.

I like this.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Can anyone explain to me why a player needs an advantage when they lose(counterpicking stages), why do we have non neutral stages?


Maybe the japanese have it right.

because neutral stages are not neutral and you might have just been stage gayed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Can anyone explain to me why a player needs an advantage when they lose(counterpicking stages), why do we have non neutral stages?


Maybe the japanese have it right.

If their character generally does worse in neutrals, but well on counter-picks, it essentially gives you two chances on neutrals, because honestly neutrals aren't that neutral.


Of course you're saying that, ICs THRIVE on neutrals.



That said, I like the B tier, idea.

 

[Shaya]

Don't be trying to stray from the definition of competitive smash swordgard.
babum.
*_*

and it's also probably not the best time of the year to try and define what's feasibly competitive or not.

Counterpick stages are one of the staple includes of Smash that seperates it from other fighters.

 

[swordgard]

Don't be trying to stray from the definition of competitive smash swordgard.
babum.
*_*

and it's also probably not the best time of the year to try and define what's feasibly competitive or not.

Counterpick stages are one of the staple includes of Smash that seperates it from other fighters.

Its not because its an old standard that we should not question why it is in place from the start. And adumbrodeus, its not bias, I am really wondering why we are essentially creating ourselves a rubberbanding effect(ala mario kart).

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

because nobody wants to fight IC on FD and then on SV

or diddy
or falco
or snake

 

[Rubberbandman]

Haha Rubberbanding. Someone likes me =)

 

[Blackrider213]

It's interesting that Smasher won the tournament. Kel faced him and put several vids on youtube that showed friendly matches of Smasher.

 

[shadyf0o]

I'm glad to see that Japanese players are experimenting with rules that curb gay play. I also like the idea of sudden death. Sure, its seen as a joke in the states, but I think it would make the game much more entertaining. Who cares about the bombs. It just means you don't have time to camp. Sudden death would leave a timeout as an option, while at time same time discouraging it as a goal.

 

[swordgard]

because nobody wants to fight IC on FD and then on SV

or diddy
or falco
or snake

Why should we go on stages which are not deemed neutral? Either they are or they are not. Why is something not ok on first game but ok if you lose? Makes no sense.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Why should we go on stages which are not deemed neutral? Either they are or they are not. Why is something not ok on first game but ok if you lose? Makes no sense.

Because if we'd only go on neutral stages we wouldn't play on any stage at all.

 

[Nitrix]

Because if we'd only go on neutral stages we wouldn't play on any stage at all.

Yea but some are much more neutral than others. There is a pretty big jump in stage shenannigans when you compare FD to Rainbow Cruise

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

An issue remains that the three stages Japan uses (FD, BF, SV) are not really very "neutral" at all. FD is close to Mr. Game & Watch's worst stage in the game so when I'm in one of those random pools and the round is on FD, I'm in a horrible position, especially if my opponent knows ICs or MK. In general, I really suspect their ICs are just not as good as ours; there's no way a good ICs player wouldn't be able to just rampage with that stage list. Okay, they can SDI Blizzard... so? Just desynch that Blizzard so when they SDI through they're greeted by Nana's usmash or something. And really not getting grabbed? Any disadvantage the ICs grab range gives them is made up for by the fact that there are two of them.

As per character diversity being high in Japan, I'd like to throw out there that character diversity is also high in the US Midwest which has typically a lot of stages. I'd like to just say that Japan is doing it wrong and that more stages promotes more diversity, but really, this is a case of us having some conflicting evidence... just want to make sure no one is inferring that Japan's three stages help their diversity since there's conflicting evidence on that front too. I'd like to say that stage diversity has virtue in and of itself (regardless of our supported selection algorithms, playing on only 3/42 stages seems pretty lame). I think that, all else aside, the game has more to gain than to lose by playing on more stages, and while I'm no fan of tradition for tradition's sake, a counterpicking system is the most logical method I've seen to allow those diverse stages to be used.

EDIT: I don't agree about a shenanigan jump between FD and Rainbow Cruise. It's just shenanigans for different characters is all.

 

[Zankoku]

- 5 rounds of 'pools' by where winners verse winners and losers verse losers. top half qualify for 'A' bracket. bottom half qualify for 'B' bracket.

I don't know about you guys, but here in America we call this "Swiss pairings."

 

[swordgard]

An issue remains that the three stages Japan uses (FD, BF, SV) are not really very "neutral" at all. FD is close to Mr. Game & Watch's worst stage in the game so when I'm in one of those random pools and the round is on FD, I'm in a horrible position, especially if my opponent knows ICs or MK. In general, I really suspect their ICs are just not as good as ours; there's no way a good ICs player wouldn't be able to just rampage with that stage list. Okay, they can SDI Blizzard... so? Just desynch that Blizzard so when they SDI through they're greeted by Nana's usmash or something. And really not getting grabbed? Any disadvantage the ICs grab range gives them is made up for by the fact that there are two of them.

As per character diversity being high in Japan, I'd like to throw out there that character diversity is also high in the US Midwest which has typically a lot of stages. I'd like to just say that Japan is doing it wrong and that more stages promotes more diversity, but really, this is a case of us having some conflicting evidence... just want to make sure no one is inferring that Japan's three stages help their diversity since there's conflicting evidence on that front too. I'd like to say that stage diversity has virtue in and of itself (regardless of our supported selection algorithms, playing on only 3/42 stages seems pretty lame). I think that, all else aside, the game has more to gain than to lose by playing on more stages, and while I'm no fan of tradition for tradition's sake, a counterpicking system is the most logical method I've seen to allow those diverse stages to be used.

EDIT: I don't agree about a shenanigan jump between FD and Rainbow Cruise. It's just shenanigans for different characters is all.

My point still stands though, why are CPs ok when you lose but not on 1st round. Either they are neutral enough to be played on or they simply are not. If you only allow them when a player loses, you are automatically implying that they give an advantage to one player, which is basically creating rubber banding(arbitrary help for the loser to make up for his lack of skills). If they really are neutral because only different chars have different shanenigans, just always put em on neutral, unless they are not as neutral as you claim they are. (not necessarly you, just the community). By saying its fine to use em on CP but not on neutral, we are creating a line between what stages are fine and which are not. A competitive community should not promote rubber banding.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Neutrals are supposed to give the smallest advantage to characters out of the stagelist, and if this is impossible they should give advantages to the smallest part of the cast.

Neutrals are in round1 because you have the least chance of getting gayed on those stages, because there are only a select few characters that are overpowered on the stage or gayed by it.
CPs promote character viability, some characters on high tiers (falco) have no solid CPs, which mean that by CPing you might be able to beat him with a character that's worse. But i.e. GaW has plenty CPs, like Lylat/Rainbow etcetera.

 

[DMG]

The difference between Mario Kart and Brawl "rubberbanding" is that for Brawl, this takes place in separate matches. In Mariokart, you can "rubber band" at any time, on any lap for that race. Rubber banding is promoted throughout the entire match/race (You can competitively race without items or do time trials, or you can change the items that come up, but that is besides the point.)

If you lose the first one for Brawl, you are now benefited for losing by getting a CP stage. The difference is that you have already lost a game, so you can't keep intentionally losing to gain an advantage because eventually you lose the match. Now, say you lose the first match. Second match, you get the advantage and win. Third match, you guys are even, but basically your opponent get's to Rubber Band from a neutral position. This is basically his advantage for winning the first match. Even if he loses the second match and things go back to even, the next game starts out with him having the advantage instead of both players getting relative equality on stage choices.

I think that is a fair advantage for winning the first match. It basically says to the opponent, "Ok, you can rubber band for this match, but even if you succeed, I get to do it back to you." Even if you only have "neutral" stages on, the nature of rubberbanding would not simply dissipate. It would simply not have as many choices/opportunities as before.

 

[swordgard]

The difference between Mario Kart and Brawl "rubberbanding" is that for Brawl, this takes place in separate matches. In Mariokart, you can "rubber band" at any time, on any lap for that race. Rubber banding is promoted throughout the entire match/race (You can competitively race without items or do time trials, or you can change the items that come up, but that is besides the point.)

If you lose the first one for Brawl, you are now benefited for losing by getting a CP stage. The difference is that you have already lost a game, so you can't keep intentionally losing to gain an advantage because eventually you lose the match. Now, say you lose the first match. Second match, you get the advantage and win. Third match, you guys are even, but basically your opponent get's to Rubber Band from a neutral position. This is basically his advantage for winning the first match. Even if he loses the second match and things go back to even, the next game starts out with him having the advantage instead of both players getting relative equality on stage choices.

I think that is a fair advantage for winning the first match. It basically says to the opponent, "Ok, you can rubber band for this match, but even if you succeed, I get to do it back to you." Even if you only have "neutral" stages on, the nature of rubberbanding would not simply dissipate. It would simply not have as many choices/opportunities as before.

Thanks for the good explanation.

 

[DMG]

No problem

 

[adumbrodeus]

Its not because its an old standard that we should not question why it is in place from the start. And adumbrodeus, its not bias, I am really wondering why we are essentially creating ourselves a rubberbanding effect(ala mario kart).

More an observation then anything else, IC players tend to prefer rulesets that neutrals dominate.


But it's a balance thing, counter-picks are there to give characters that do badly on neutrals but not as badly on counter-picks the ability to compete. For example, marth is already a dominating force, how much better would he be if you couldn't counterpick him to rainbow cruise?




Take that in combination with DMG's explanation.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've seen a plethora of videos of Japan as they have evolved/as time has passed and I still think overall they are behind.

That depends on how you measure the skill of a whole region.
If it's "US' best players vs Japans best players" then it's pretty obviously in US' favour but if it's "average US player vs average japanese player" I'm pretty confident the japanese player wins.

 

[lordhelmet]

Any good Falcons?

 

[Rubberbandman]

That depends on how you measure the skill of a whole region.
If it's "US' best players vs Japans best players" then it's pretty obviously in US' favour but if it's "average US player vs average japanese player" I'm pretty confident the japanese player wins.

Does US best include Ally? If yes then we really own ***.

 

[DMG]

Depends on what you call average. Do you call average the people who don't make it out of pools 85% of the time, or do you call average people who get out of pools but place last/next to last 85% of the time? Do you factor in the people who play 1 tournament every 2-3 months and do ok?

The "average" player in the US varies quite a bit by region. The EC/WC average player is probably better than the Northwest Average player. Southwest average player, if you are counting just Texas and like Oklahoma, is probably slightly better than the average Midwest player.

Japan probably has less "bad" tournament players than we do.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

wow some of those rules are dumb as hell. not allowed to change your controls makes no sense.

Also not a big fan in how they run the tourneys having them only be 1 match instead of a set.

Also playing sudden death and not winning by a time out makes no sense. if someone is losing by a good amount they can time out the opponent and force a sudden death were then all the sudden it is even and he has a chance.

i did kinda like that everyone had to watch the grand finals b/c ll the other systems were off but at the same time if u don't care about the finals u should be allowed to play if u wan to.

so more or less all the Japanese play on is BF FD or SV right thats kinda bad.

Now if only one person does well with pit them pit should not be as high on the tier list. i think pit has potential but until more pits start showing it he should not rise on the tier list.

 

[J4pu]

thanks for the update

very strange ruleset

 

[Staco]

lol, the japanese think pit got a lot of 60:40 MUs but I have seen videos of masashi getting beaten by snakes etc. Oo