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The Role of Money in the Smash Community + Growth Talks

CAOTIC

Woxy
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
Messages
11,506
Location
Sydney
I've got a lot to say about the role money has in determining the state of our community.

The primary goal of our scene has always been in the sustainability of it. We have feared its death from the beginning . This fear forces us to innovate and think of new ways to keep the wheels going. Our motivations are fundamentally driven not only by our social interactions when we play, but our love for the respective games, which act as the social liquor.

The role of the community provides everything about why we love these games: everything from respect levels, the metagame, personal development and the sense of inclusiveness which makes players feel comfortable around each other.

The introduction of a large sum of money injected into a Smash tournament, would only bring about a mutual sense of goodwill and long-term sustenance for the community-at-large, if the benefits of that money are felt universally throughout our smash scene.

Thus, I believe that the injection of exorbitant amounts of money into the pockets of a select few is actually detrimental to our community. You didn't read wrong -- money, if not used properly, can take our scene backwards.

Let me demonstrate this in several ways:

'Why sponsorships can be bad'

Sponsorships, once introduced, set up unrealistic expectations that are not sustainable. Let's just say, players within Australia are sponsored, even if they didn't need to be; these players could have afforded it on their own. This lowers the motivation people would have had in making trips to foreign territories on their own, since they now expect handouts.

Further, it draws on a particular bias towards players with a good social and/or performance record, at the same time, ignoring the rest of the smash community, whom collectively, are more important than the big players.

I'm not stating this to discredit the positive role of sponsorships: they are great in attaining players that we would have otherwise never have been able to witness. However, assurances need to be made to ensure sponsorships don't hit murky ground, where local players are sponsored at the expense of other local players.

'Why money can be bad'

The Smash Community will never reach the stage of monetarily valuing players based on performance -- we are a very small and fragile community and we run on the principle of fun & mate-ship -- not monetary gain. We should not jeopardize what we have by corrupting things with an overemphasis on money as a reward.

Money has its place in rewarding players for doing well (a solid argument for why money should exist in a competitive environment), but this reward should not be at the expense of players in the community, and it should not compromise why we exist as a scene.

Excessive rewards will reach a tipping point in the community, where players will begin to economize their friendships based on monetary gain. Let's say you're in the grand final. You'd subconsciously think: "What's worth more? $3000, or the friendship with the person I'm versing?" Excessive divisions based on monetary differences breeds jealousy. Jealousy breeds hate. Smashers aren't used to having or dealing with large sums of money. It will do nothing but leave a negative mark on the community in the long run.

Interestingly, the scenario could have a different outcome: some friendships between finalists are so strong, they will attempt to broker a pot split. This defeats the purpose of arguing for such a high prize in the first place and discourages competition on the basis of a monetary advantage over another person.

'Why money can be destructive'

Corruption can affect us, but we can be blind to it.

We've seen this with Zelgadis and what he did to Genesis 2. We've seen this with rival factions in America amongst the best players fighting for the top prize (Ken doesn't add Hugs/DSF on Facebook). We've seen it between Dekar and myself. We didn't really connect properly as friends until I started becoming less competitive (or just accepting that I suck, lol). Friendships aren't encouraged. Rivalries are.

We can't afford to feed our competitive fantasies and act as if we're bigger than we think we are -- not with such a small scene.

Does money really motivate us, even the top players? The answer: Only after it has been introduced as an expectation. Thus, considerably ramping up the payouts in a one-off bonanza, will have a negative effect on expectations after we settle back to normal tournaments. In fact, pouring a lot of money into a pot of a single future tournament will amount to nothing more than an expensive money match between ranks #1 and #2.

'We'd do it for free anyway'

We are built on a movement of self-sacrificers. Everything that has been reliable in securing the future of our scene has rested on some form of sacrifice, mutually appreciated by all. This not only applies to the managers of our scene, but also the players. Believe it or not, almost 100% of all smashers have committed to competitive Smash on operating losses. We all travel to tournaments with the expectation of having a net loss in our bank accounts.

So how are we motivated by money?

I don't know about you guys, but one of the best Smash tournaments I've encountered was one with a high entry fee and no monetary prizes (Don't Come, 2008).

'How money could be invested in the future of Smash'

If you were to ask yourself how can we use money to maximise the benefit for the community, you need to consider what adds value to the scene. Right now, we are suffering from a combination of things. But the underlying factor which stands out most, is a lack of new blood to replace those who have ventured onwards.

Without a community, there would be no one to validate a good player like Ted, Tibs or Attila, reducing their motivations to play for honour and respect amongst their peers. That's what it's really about.

Also, think about what makes some players come back. A lot of us are tired of versing each other, and a dose of new blood is exactly what everyone needs -- not a pot of $5000+ for the top three.

As our scene is diminishing, the final effort required to salvage what we once had, would be to reinvest in the promotion of our scene -- to make it more public and universal in all ways, through an expanded payout system to reward more players, through to the hosting/advertising our events in more public domains (think: Mana Bar, Nintendo Experience). Our relationship with CouchWarriors has begun to run its course, in my opinion.

These are the keys to our future, and money could go a long way in fostering this need. You could even boast a sizeable pot and run with that in promoting our scene, as long as the community-at-large receives something at the end of the day -- even if it means acquiring a new smash buddy.

Strategically, our best intentions would be to spur community growth, right?

~ CAOTIC
 

Redact

Professional Nice Guy
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
3,811
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Amazing Land
This post pretty much sums up my ideas for what money should and shouldn't be used for.

Rather than post my own essay, I'll just say I give this a +1
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
BRoomer
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Oct 29, 2004
Messages
11,506
Location
Sydney
lol. but srs? i didn't know qld had money problems

we can just talk about it next tiem sykeywykey
 

Darkwing SykeDuk

Smash Dankist
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Messages
4,996
Location
Purple Monkey Dishwasher
the upping of entry fee stopped people coming

those that did pay got annoyed that they wer paying so much and getting squat in return.. so they stopped coming too

those that stayed got greedy/elitist and drove off newcomers

eventually the scene just fell apart

brawl brought it back together a little and its just barely alive today..

jist of it
 

Invisi

Smash Ace
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Jul 3, 2011
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566
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Sydney
3DS FC
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I would like to express my complete agreement with just about every argument brought up in this thread. As a newcomer to the scene, my thoughts may even be relevant to this thread unlike most (hooray for being significant), so I may as well articulate them.

As many NSWers know, my first introduction to the scene was when a friend found this year's Sydney ACL major. We were all pumped for our first proper tourney, for the chance to show off our skills to the community. Though it wasn't our fault, I could sense my friends scoffing at the $30 door fee. While it was not as significant to me, I must say I did feel like it was overpriced.

I agree that one of the best things we can be doing as a scene is to be attracting new players, and a pot is definitely not the way to go about this. One point I feel is important which wasn't brought up is that new players have next to no chance of benefitting from monetary reward. Despite being told I'm the best newcomer in quite a while, I'm yet to place in the top 8 of a tourney, letalone the top 3 (early days though; I'm working on it =D). I don't mind, and in fact am happy to fork out a $5 entry fee that I know I won't get back; having a small pot puts a nice competetive edge to things, but if you start ramping this up for a bigger pot this will act as a deterrant to those players who have less chance of a return.

Money should not be our major drive; if it was mine I probably wouldn't have stuck around the scene past ACL. We are driven by our love of the game, and desire to improve. If this doesn't motivate you anymore, then I suggest you take a good look at why you are here, because you are probably wasting your time. A small pot is a great incentive for those at the top level to continue to improve, but it should not be the driving factor.

I think the scene could benefit quite a bit if the pots were kept small, and the focus was on the smash. A large pot for an interstate major every so often could be nice, but the payments should be more diverse (top 8 instead of 3 as Shaya suggested), so as to draw more top players from around the country who may otherwise have a hard time making their way there. Perhaps advertising would do some good, I don't know. We definitely need to think of ways to make the scene more public (my friend told me he spent a not-insignificant amount of time searching to find the ACL Sydney tournament); I'm sure there are plenty of great players out there who would love to join the scene, if only they knew it existed.

So yea, pretty much what CAOTIC said; even though he speaks with much more experience I can relate to a lot of what was said. I hope this helps to improve our scene =)
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
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Messages
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Sydney
That's a good point. We're going to have to start driving prices down, particularly for new entrants to the scene imo.
 

Scrubs

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,650
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I think the biggest problem is the tournament design in general...

For a new player it would be quite daunting -

You show up, unsure of what is going on, everyone else knows each other

You pay $20 get put into a pool and get destroyed then told you are no longer in the tournament, thanks and cya later... I would probably wallk away from that thinking that it was a waste of time and money and that I have more fun playing against my mates.

I like the idea of amateur brackets - where entry is free and winning grants you entry into the pro-bracket for free (you can't enter the amateur bracket next time).

Although this is hard to do in the AUS scene, particularly at locals, because of size.

However I could be done in the place of pools, whilst the recognised "Top" players either do pools or swiss for seeding...

It would ease new players into the tournament experience without costing them anything, also it gives them something to aspire to i.e. making pro-bracket...

We may have missed the boat, there isn't a large influx of new players coming into the scene...
 

MTGod

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
2,004
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Perth
I trialled a different method of the Amateur bracket that I think I stol from Sydney: the first round (or two, depending on # of people) of eliminated people get entered into a separate Amateur bracket (single elim probably, to save on time). This worked quite well for the 15 or so people we had. Probably not a wise idea for majors though :S
 

Splice

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
Messages
5,126
Location
AUS
I like and agree with this thread.
Particular things I want to note on;

-Lower entry fee in general
that would be neat

-Reaching out to more players
In VIC we have tried this at many events though and with the exception of 1 or 2 players each event, we haven't had much success. It's not convincing people to come to the event that we should worry about but making the experience more rewarding for everyone so that its worthwhile.

-Extending Pot Payouts
I think it should go up to 8th at least. I always have. The difference between winning $0 and $5 feels better than the difference of winning $5 and $10. It doesn't need to be a lot but it's the gentle nudge that says you are getting better. You have done well. I'm pretty sure in 2009 monthlies when our scene was strong, I got money for coming 5th or 7th.... not sure if that's right though, but I'm quite sure payments extended further than top 3, as is the case now.

-Social factor
As well as welcoming new players in to the scene of smash, how are they benefiting if they aren't making friends? One reason that I'm quite sure all of us who have stayed since 2009 have for staying is the social connection and friendship that we found through competitive smash. I think this is something we don't touch on when we think of why new players would stay. Meets/tournaments especially for new players training and the like.... that would be so good. This way they can develop bonds better because playing the same game helps build bonds... so naturally to be on the same skill level within that game would also help. This would help the rewarding experiences you can find in a tournament be available to them. The thing is people are interested in smash; we dont have to make them love smash, they already do. But why is joining competitive smash any more beneficial than playing wifi for them? Most people know that they can learn better and feel more rewarded and make good friends through competitive smash... but we aren't showing that to them. I would love to run meets for the purpose of new players learning together. Unfortunately in VIC we just don't quite have the numbers for me to start that yet though....

One other thing
I think one benefit of the pot injection (that is supposed to benefit everyone) is the increase in top attendance. All the other people who are coming at top level do benefit the lower level players because of what they get to see. I think the large pot was supposed to encourage more top level players to attend, and therefore more lower level players would still benefit from this by seeing those matches and being there in the hype. I know I enjoyed the diversity of Reloaded in Brawl more than BaM. I had no idea what was going to happen at Reloaded, there was so much competition and so many players that could take first. It made it a spectacle for me, even though I was just some loser at 9th place.

THAT SAID.

I think sponsoring those top level players over to SECURE their attendance would be more worthwhile. That IS what happened at Reloaded and I think that was the biggest success of that tournament.
 

Hotdog

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 26, 2008
Messages
1,317
Location
QLD
Start a Easy Way card system, every 5th tourney is freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! lolololol

But yes, money is a big issue.
As of lately most of the newer audience (in QLD) are rather young with no source of income (beside their parents) so paying a massive entry fee to get beasted in their first tourney definitely deters them away future tourneys.
 

Robsta

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
526
Location
Melbourne
The way I first introduced to the scene was through IRC and then meeting redcat and Tak at N2C. This worked well be cause I was taught some things, given info and told how to improve.
After this I went to my first tourney which was a monthly were I was told I could only play three characters and the rules were different to anything I've seen before. I had only practiced fox and had no idea what else to do. Like every other complete newb I was decimated and if I hadn't met with Phil before I probably would've quit there.
How about 3 tiers or so of smaller tournaments where you play round robin against the other players in your tier. For example the Robsta tier the Attila tier and the Dekar tier. About 5 entrants in each tier.

:phone:
 

Robsta

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Messages
526
Location
Melbourne
The way I first introduced to the scene was through IRC and then meeting redcat and Tak at N2C. This worked well be cause I was taught some things, given info and told how to improve.
After this I went to my first tourney which was a monthly were I was told I could only play three characters and the rules were different to anything I've seen before. I had only practiced fox and had no idea what else to do. Like every other complete newb I was decimated and if I hadn't met with Phil before I probably would've quit there.
How about 3 tiers or so of smaller tournaments where you play round robin against the other players in your tier. For example the Robsta tier the Attila tier and the Dekar tier. About 5 entrants in each tier.

:phone:
 

EverAlert

Smash Master
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Australia
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should just put it toward entrance fees and some oos/ooc attendance. more accessible for newbies AND something in it for top level players.

adding money to the top 3 spots achieves pretty much nothing other than the ability to say the tournament has a large pot. top 8 prizes I feel is better but still basically the same thing.
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
BRoomer
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Oct 29, 2004
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Sydney
other thoughts about tournament design: they take too long and have a negative health impact. if we can find some way to shorten the length of tournaments whilst at the same time, keeping participation levels of everyone at a constant high, we'd have a great forumla for retaining smashers, especially those that always leave early.

8+ hour tournaments are visibly taxing. 6 would be ideal with extra hours devoted to friendlies/chillin.

the pool system used by the SF community does a good job to address this, but they also have a more compatible game design based on short time limits.

Swiss is actually probably the best way to address this since everyone gets to play for a set amt. of time, which can be dictated by the TO. It comes recommended for local events, but perhaps not majors where people demand a bracket system where ppl willingly give bias to good players.
 

Splice

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 1, 2009
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5,126
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AUS
At BAM, the major, I played roughly 1 hour a and a half of Brawl including pools and singles.
I played even less in Melee because I didn't exactly place 5th in Melee hey...

The tournaments still take along time for whatever reason whether it's just run slowly (not badly) or people dont play matches straight away coz they are in other tournaments. But I feel the actual time spent playing in the tournament isn't really very long at all.

I'm probably the minority but I disagree with the above post Cao
But at the same time, Swiss is a good idea anyway.
 

CAOTIC

Woxy
BRoomer
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'a' bracket and 'b' bracket works treat. Provided yOu get enough people to come.

:phone:
in the scenario you don't have enough people to attend to do split pools, the swiss system would work even better. it's not a perfect system, but it's closest thing to pulling off a round robin.

nova: i think you care, otherwise you wouldn't have posted. maybe once you calm down you'll realize i'm not out to attack you or anyone else.

for the time being, i want people to discuss and think more critically about what can be done better for the community, particularly with money, and these are healthy discussions. there is no need to behave destructively about this. it's not worth your time or mine.

if i have directly offended you or others in any way, i apologize.
 

Redact

Professional Nice Guy
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Messages
3,811
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Amazing Land
So cao will you help me with 1k (lend or simply give) to get SD down here for this weekend?

Im srs here, my no1 priority right now is sorting out SD getting here tommorow.

Ill print out my own opinion later if people want I guess

:phone:
 

swordsaint

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Messages
4,379
Location
Western Sydney
cao can speak for himself. it makes everybody look like tools. and like nova said, it's between him and cao here anyway, so off i go.
 

zApollo

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
839
cao can speak for himself. it makes everybody look like tools. and like nova said, it's between him and cao here anyway, so off i go.
Yay lets do a private argument that no one else should ever be involved in a public thread on a public forum.
 
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