The real reason Japan is better than America

[Grim Tuesday]

The advantages/disadvantages can be different, no one said otherwise. Every stage is different in that respect.

Now name an accepted stage where positional advantage can change completely, anywhere on the stage at almost any time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

rainbow?

p.s. if I understand what youre trying to say correctly, id be forced to disagree.
different =/= bad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

WOW lol

100% seriousness Picto should NOT be legal and is NOT legit. It's the reason I lost to GIMR and didn't make it out of pools at Pound 5. It's a stage all about luck. Might as well make Dream land and Jungle Japes legal if Picto is legal.

Hey, that's not funny. JJ and GG are WAY better than picto. -.-

1. The walls don't come up NEARLY fast enough for that to happen, and you should know that. They get drawn in, they don't just phase in in 1 frame.

This is incorrect - while hitboxes don't come out until the drawing is done, the solid wall part shows up the moment it starts drawing, at times before it even looks like it occupies the space involved to begin with! The walls actually do come up within one frame - the drawing doesn't.

And this is why I hate discussing Pictochat.

Walls in Pictochat have always been debatable. They appear at random, but you can't get areward from them unless someone really screws up or you actually look for it.

Or, you know, you're doing what you'd do anyways and the wall just pops up randomly and gives you a random bonus.

1. It's every 26.66 or so.

If by "or so" you mean "within about a 10-second range", then this is correct. I fail to see how this helps your argument, though.

1. Does not happen at a random time, happens at a fixed time.

Wait, and you're the one who thinks he knows the stage?!

1. There is fair warning, there is 13.33 seconds of transformation and then 13.33 seconds of none. You may not be able to see it, but it's just like lylat. When something new will come is predetermined.

Watch a few vids on youtube and you'll see that this is completely wrong.

 

[choknater]

lovin' the op post

 

[Grim Tuesday]

rainbow?

Sorry, I forgot to say "randomly".

p.s. if I understand what youre trying to say correctly, id be forced to disagree.
different =/= bad.

Then you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

[-LzR-]

1. It's every 26.66 or so.

2. It being easier to consider doesn't matter. It's easier to consider you might randomly die from lets say, a down throw into a nine at 0% on BF, but does that make it easier to deal with?

I'll make a few facts here...
1.9 doesn't kill at 0%
2.You can techchase into sideB against all characters.
3.It's attempted randomness, just like Peach's downB is
4.It would still require 2 read, getting the grab and reading the techchase option.


1. Does not happen at a random time, happens at a fixed time.

Pictochats transformation times are completely unpredictable, go play the stage before you argue for it.

2. Isn't this the same as peach pulling a random lightsaber and randomly killing you because of it?

I have played Peach enough to know my opponent doesn't explode to a million piece when I pluck a lightsaber, I have to throw it first.

All of which can be avoided by smart play. Every time.

No

1. There is fair warning, there is 13.33 seconds of transformation and then 13.33 seconds of none. You may not be able to see it, but it's just like lylat. When something new will come is predetermined.

Dat 08 mentality...

2. Perhaps because people aren't playing with the knowledge that a transformation will come. People honestly should be playing with this knowledge, and then come back and say they got gimped by a transformation.

Knowledge doesn't matter when I try to sweespot the ledge and the line blocks the ledge in 1 frame and I die.


Yes, yes there is.

SuperK

Note that spikes come up from one side of the stage to the other, as does every transformation ever.

Also note that shy guys flying(from the sky) in can easily get in the way of some grounded aura spheres/turnips/missles, espicially if they were on the way to the target and the shy guy came in 3/4 of the way there.

Shy guys can be seen when they appear, they don't just spawn in the middle of the stage in 1 frame like in Picto. Maybe next time you could realize the opponent wasn't just randomly staying behind the Shy guys, but abusing the fact that they eat the spheres to keep him safe.

Bolded answers as usual.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This just in: Arcansi is kinda dumb.
Also just in: Jebus isn't the brightest debater, the sky is blue, and this joke.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bolded answers as usual.

Add quote tags inside the post, it is a very minor inconvenience for you and a massive convenience for everyone else.

 

[-LzR-]

It's not minor nuff for me to bother.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's not minor nuff for me to bother.

Then maybe we won't reply to you.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And we won't go to your birthday party either

 

[-LzR-]

All right :'(
I will do it next time, I'm sorry! Please come to my birthday party!

 

[Flayl]

For everybody just tuning into this thread because of Omni:

France and a lot of top European players play exclusively on Smashville. Why aren't they better than Japan?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Europe is nowhere near as competitive as Japan. Our best player uses Wario and the 2nd best uses Marth. We have Peach as like 14th but ICs as only 6th or 7th on our tier list. We choose to play with tactics we know to be less efficient for the sake of having more fun. Some of our better players don't even play this game outside of tourney at all, few thoroughly dedicate themselves to one single, viable character.

That's why Japan is much more competitive than US.
Or the USA for that matter.

 

[Flayl]

Then we can all agree there are more important factors into getting better than using a stagelist smaller than the APEX one.

/summary of first 25 pages

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Absolutely

 

[DMG]

I thought It was common knowledge, that everyone knew that staying on the ground on the left hand half of the stage kept you safe from the immediate damage of all transformations.

there was even a picture that was made that had every single dangerous transformation super imposed on each other, that had a big blue bubble to show the safe zone that was consistent through all of them.



thats that boy scout logic.

Be prepared.

To answer the question, yes I would say that.


apparently theres just a disconnect here since we seem to have different opinions on the definition of 'near-instant'

Being in the safe bubbles doesn't mean you stay safe. Go into Safe bubble, be tossed any direction. Do you know what will happen to you next? There's no point in having safety zones if the areas around it lead to danger. If the upper platform of Brinstar is the safe zone for avoiding lava, that doesn't mean "Oh the issue is solved we have this spacious area to fight" or "Welp guess we can forget about the hazard now". The Lava is predictable and consistent, and even that situation isn't very good. There's no positive for "herding" players into certain zones onstage due to the stage itself. That alone is bad even forgetting the hazards/changes in play.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Then we can all agree there are more important factors into getting better than using a stagelist smaller than the APEX one.

/summary of first 25 pages

Indeed, but mitigating either the mindset that makes "rely on gimmicks" a good idea or our ability to use that mindset is a great start.

 

[kraftydevil]

For everybody just tuning into this thread because of Omni:

France and a lot of top European players play exclusively on Smashville. Why aren't they better than Japan?

By what heuristic are we determining that the Japanese are better than Americans? Is it simply championship titles? Is there any evidence to support that Americans are better in other categories?

What about as a whole? In recent tournaments between Japanese and American players, what percentages made the top 10? Top 20? etc?

At a certain level of competition, the best player can vary from day to day and tournament to tournament. There are a lot of ways to look at this.

Then we can all agree there are more important factors into getting better than using a stagelist smaller than the APEX one.

/summary of first 25 pages

Just because there are more important factors does not mean a smaller stagelist is not also an important one. The stages you should play on include the ones you plan to face in tournaments.

If I had my way, I would only play Final Destination. I know there are appeals to playing other stages, but I don't think that the characters were balanced to address the stages or vice a versa.

Final Destination literally levels the playing field and says, "are your skills with your character better than my skills with my character". Different stages add a 3rd dimension that I don't find necessary to have fun.

One such dimension eliminated by majority opinion is item usage. Why don't we turn on items? Perhaps using them will make us better at the game?

It's really a matter of what you consider to be the definition of a fighting game as it applies to old school vs. new school games. Old school fighters either had limited stages of the same shape (think Street Fighter) or stages with infinite space in either direction (Tekken). New school fighters introduced more complexities like stage variations, items, weapons, etc...

Whether we as players like it or not, Smash Brothers is considered the ugly duckling of the fighting game community. Turning off items and limiting stages represented an attempt to be taken more seriously.

I don't see anyone arguing to turn on items, so why play anything else besides Final Destination? Knowledge of items and stages are both part of the stock game, so why don't we turn on items so we can reward people who know about them?

Turning on items and playing multiple stages basically have the same argument, so if you're going to argue for more stages, then why not argue to turn on items too?

Oh right, because the Japanese don't do it.

I guess I'm wondering why we're so obsessed with the Japanese? I say F**'em. Shouldn't we be focusing on our own style and own methods of play?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

By what heuristic are we determining that the Japanese are better than Americans? Is it simply championship titles? Is there any evidence to support that Americans are better in other categories?

Ask Hylian what he has to say about this. He posted either here or in another thread what he saw from both tournament and friendly matches between the Japanese and Americans – they kicked the crap out of us.

 

[Akaku94]

Just because there are more important factors does not mean a smaller stagelist is not also an important one. The stages you should play on include the ones you plan to face in tournaments.

If I had my way, I would only play Final Destination. I know there are appeals to playing other stages, but I don't think that the characters were balanced to address the stages or vice a versa.

Final Destination literally levels the playing field and says, "are your skills with your character better than my skills with my character". Different stages add a 3rd dimension that I don't find necessary to have fun.

I don't see anyone arguing to turn on items, so why play anything else besides Final Destination? Knowledge of items and stages are both part of the stock game, so why don't we turn on items so we can reward people who know about them?

Turning on items and playing multiple stages basically have the same argument, so if you're going to argue for more stages, then why not argue to turn on items too?

imageflail

 

[Akaku94]

wtf???

And I can't edit it, for some reason... sorry about that...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Must be a glitch. Can't quote the post either 0_0

 

[Tesh]

INFRACT HIM WITH FIRE!

l

 

[DMG]

WOAH

MY EYES WHAT IS GOING ON

lol

 

[Akaku94]

DON'T taze INFRACT ME BRO!

 

[DMG]

You play Kirby

Prepare your Anus

 

[Akaku94]

Smashboards hates me right now... anyway, this is what I meant to put as a response to krafty:

 

[Akaku94]

btw, thanks to whoever fixed my flail... but I swear it wasn't my fault! It was the Nazi conspiracy! See what I did there? Now that I invoked Nazis into the discussion, you don't have to! You're welcome.

Godwin's law... gotta love it.

EDIT: Double post... I'm just going to leave in shame now... I'll change my avatar and come back later...

 

[Arcansi]

This just in: Arcansi is kinda dumb.

Nah, I just argue like that. It's on purpose and promotes smart discussion, as those who are defeated by dumb arguments leave immediately.

I'll make a few facts here...
1.9 doesn't kill at 0%
2.You can techchase into sideB against all characters.
3.It's attempted randomness, just like Peach's downB is
4.It would still require 2 read, getting the grab and reading the techchase option

1. It can on delfino.

2. I know, that's not the bad part. The bad part is the randomness.

3. What makes this better then randomness that you know will happen at a given time range? (or, complete and utter randomness that you have NO idea exactly how it is coming but just that it is coming, LIKE HALBERD CLAW)

4. So? Strawman please.

Pictochats transformation times are completely unpredictable, go play the stage before you argue for it.

A ten second range isn't much time to play cautiously, or vie for control of the bottom left.

I have played Peach enough to know my opponent doesn't explode to a million piece when I pluck a lightsaber, I have to throw it first.

And I have played picto enough to know that my opponent doesn't explode and lose a stock when the walls form, they have to be jab locked first.

Knowledge doesn't matter when I try to sweespot the ledge and the line blocks the ledge in 1 frame and I die.

Knowledge doesn't matter when halberd shoots a claw at me when i try to recover and kills me.

Shy guys can be seen when they appear, they don't just spawn in the middle of the stage in 1 frame like in Picto. Maybe next time you could realize the opponent wasn't just randomly staying behind the Shy guys, but abusing the fact that they eat the spheres to keep him safe.

Or, you could understand that when someone rolls expecting a fsmash and they get a shy guy to pop in front of them and eat that charge shot (because it's not like the camera shows them immediately when they appear, or that they can't fly in when your projectile is already shot.) it's called random luck.

This is incorrect - while hitboxes don't come out until the drawing is done, the solid wall part shows up the moment it starts drawing, at times before it even looks like it occupies the space involved to begin with! The walls actually do come up within one frame - the drawing doesn't.

Do you have legit proof for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I would rather not have to test it to be 100% sure.

Or, you know, you're doing what you'd do anyways and the wall just pops up randomly and gives you a random bonus.

1. This applies to turnips and is void because of it.

2. You should be playing with the knowledge that the wall could come up.

If by "or so" you mean "within about a 10-second range", then this is correct. I fail to see how this helps your argument, though.

Within that 10 second range you should be playing with the knowledge that the stage will change.

Wait, and you're the one who thinks he knows the stage?!

No, I just act like it with the information I have, like most everyone does on most everything. (Hint: It's impossible to truly know anything that could possibly have a definition outside of your mind).

Watch a few vids on youtube and you'll see that this is completely wrong.

Ok.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think I'd rather see Electroplankton legal before Pictochat to be honest. I would like to hear an argument against this.

 

[Mew2King]

Seibrik has a theory. No one really knows why Japan did a little better than us at a stacked international tournament where anyone could have won.

Nairo beat Nietono and came within an inch of beating Otori.

Kakera and Otori beat M2K and Anti, but this shouldn't be surprising. While Otori does look better than all of our MKs, Kakera didn't seem to be. Teams is about synergy and they are both top MKs and BROTHERS. How often do you think M2K and Anti wind up at the same tournaments and practice? How often do you think Dojo and Ally wind up at the same tournaments and practice. Now imagine our top MKs live together and/or practice together all the time. Synergy is important, its how a Snake+Diddy team managed to make top 3.

Despite other viable explanations for our close defeat, Seibrik has decided that the REAL reason is that Japan has a special elixir of talent, magical skill transforming ruleset.

I could take random facts about American players better than I am and assume thats why they are good. Its a common belief that being good at Melee helped M2K become so amazing at Brawl so why don't we all just go play Melee to train for Brawl?

i think their teamwork is perfect and mine and antis sucks together by comparison, cuz they play together a lot probably while me and anti almost never play together (this is 3rd tournament teaming ever), and our styles don't really compliment each other (we both like to wait for an opportunity, altho i think he waits/sits back a bit too much but it's mostly our lack of teamwork which is due to lack of experience together).

i think the ruleset is a small factor

i think lagless wifi is another small factor (I cannot wifi because of where I live. Verizon DSL, below average DSL unfortunately, is the best available where I live). I got good from playing computers and attending tournaments a lot.

I do believe melee gave me a big advantage but that mostly applied years ago because I understood the game better. Lately it has just made things harder

I wouldn't try to conclude things from just 1 reason. Example - this thread. I agree with the thread that the stages are a factor. I disagree with it being the only reason to explain things. With that said, I think too many stages are legal and our timer is too short, and I have said that for over 2 years now in the BBR but nobody listened.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wow. A well thought out, intelligent, descriptive, non-salty post on a debate thread by mew2king.

Color me impressed sir.

 

[Tesh]

Well, we agree.

As its been said again, there isn't any one reason Japan did better and North America wasn't defeated in a crushing way the leads me to believe a drastic change is in order.

I'm all for anything that promotes experimentation with small changes here and there.

 

[-LzR-]

1. It can on delfino.

Everything can kill at 0% from Delfino under certain conditions, bad argument. G&Ws 9 hammer is weaker than Puffs rest in Melee IIRC. It has been argued to death already.

2. I know, that's not the bad part. The bad part is the randomness.

I will withdraw this argument because I made a typo. I mean't to say CAN'T, but somehow the 'T part didn't appear. Sorry for causing confusion, sideB is definitely NOT possible on most character after Dthrow.

3. What makes this better then randomness that you know will happen at a given time range? (or, complete and utter randomness that you have NO idea exactly how it is coming but just that it is coming, LIKE HALBERD CLAW)

It is on the same level as Halbers randomness, acceptable level. I can powershield the claw most of the time without even really realizing it myself, it has become quite automatic, I'll just have to hear the sound effect and yeah, easy.
The laser? It's the most noticable hazard in the stage. Both players can easily prepare for it and you can SDI out of it pretty easily. Mostly I shield it on purpose and Shield SDI to safety.
The bomb also is noticable and makes a noticable sound effect.
Halberd falls under the category on reactable and easily avoided on reaction hazards. Sharking is more of an issue than the hazards and is not a good argument against the 9 hammer. The hammer is a laggy and unsafe move where the G&W goes for a huge risk vs huge rewards scenarion. Most of the time it fails. I don't see a problem with this move, it's already hard enough to land.

4. So? Strawman please.

The point here is that if you need to read someone twice, it's not random at all, it's simply outplaying the opponent and going for a risky option with a huge reward if successful.



Quoted like a boss for Grim and BPC. Have a nice day folks.

 

[_Kadaj_]

I know this thread is a little old, but I've been saying this **** since 2009 and no one seemed to give a ****.

The same exact points as well, as a matter of fact 1 particular thread me and TKD both went on for about 3 weeks or so with every valid point imaginable and all anyone thought to do (mostly the much worse players) was to try and nit pick points that really had nothing to do with the entire point as a whole.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So... you were wrong before Seibrik was?

'Grats!

 

[_Kadaj_]

You're the one that's wrong.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No you're the one that's wrong.

 

[_Kadaj_]

You're an idiot.