The real reason Japan is better than America

[Flayl]

I never understand why people though all items should be banned no questions asked, but YO STAGES DAT FLIP AROUND AND SHOOT LASERS AND **** AT YOU DAS FINE

The stage that flips around gives huge warning (for like 5 seconds) and does it always in the same way

items spawn randomly and a few are capable of taking a stock or dealing huge percent if attacked/picked up on spawn

if smash had fixed item spawn locations for each stage I'd be all for a (selective) pro-item ruleset

but that's not the case

 

[PMC66]

Johns, so many jonhs. America lost because the Japanese are awesome. Also there were only a few Japanes who were mostly top players while Americans had even lower level players so ofc they are gonna do better overall.
And your last point also is bad. Care to explain why it was the MKs that did so well if they were lacking practice?

Nietono,Otori and Kakera are top level in Japan they made top 10, Rain and Brood are two of the best players in East Japan they didn't get top 10.

You didn't argue against my first and main point though, Apex was straight after christmas, Japan doesn't celebrate christmas so they would have had a regular month whilst all of us were running round getting presents and stuff, if you Jewish then it's Hanukah and that's still pretty big.

Of couse the MKs would have got last minute practice but that point isn't bad. studying for an exam for 4 months then last minute stuff is still better than purely last minute stuff Japan spent ages training for this and Tournies in US for MK were depleting, hell tournaments in General have been depleting, while Japan spent more time playing and studying vids of all of you, the japanese have been watching US brawl vids for a long time because they're so easy to find there are less vids of Japan brawl players so you wouldn't have been able to study them the way they could have studied you. Why else would they have gone in pretty much countering your playstyles from the start if this wasn't the case? Otori is best MK in Japan, Neitono is top 3 not like US got bodied by bad players now was it?

Though sadly i'm of the opinion that 9B and SLS make everyone right now make everyone look trash in comparison to themselves

 

[Naridax]

1. videos of the top players are widely avaliable and easy to search for on youtube so the Japanese went in knowing what to expect it's clear from some of the matches they went in prepared even against Players they had never fought before.

There are probably less videos of them, but there are still plenty of recent "widely availble" videos of the top Japanese players that attended APEX on YouTube and Nico Nico Douga.

2. Apex took place in early January straight after christmas many players wouldn't have been practicing as much or not at all over december, I think Ally said he spent more than a month whith his girlfriend so he wasn't preparing in that period though i don't count him as US i count him as Canada. Japan; however don't celebrate christmas so they would have had a at least extra month practice and more preperation time, whilst the Japanese were probably jet lagged to hell they had more than 2 weeks to adjust which is plenty of time not to have their performance crippled by traveling half way accross the planet. SO basically they had time to study all of you prepared came over and bodied all of you.

It is not a national holiday, but many Japanese do celebrate Christmas, although primarily for secular purposes, like putting up decorations, throwing parties, spending time with loved ones, and exchanging presents (sound familiar?), rather than religious purposes. It is increasingly popular among young people in Japan, who are heavily influenced by many aspects of Western culture, but, in fact, Christianity in Japan goes back to at least the 16th century.

[COLLAPSE=Japanese Players Celebrating Christmas]

[/COLLAPSE]

3. America's strongest players are Meta Knight mains, Meta Knight allowed tournies decreased in number as a result of the unity rulest ban which meant tournaments with MK legal started declining 4 months before Apex meaning they would have been getting much less practice.

Probably, but, as far as I know, Japan, and all the other foreign nations, don't hold tournaments as frequently as Americans do to begin with.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The point of the counterpicking system is not 'let's make stages have an impact on gameplay', it's 'let's reduce the impact of characters so the better player can win'.

Counterpick sytem may be as well "Let's increase the hype by allowing the worse player to have an even or advantegeous ground with someone better than him/her". Is still silly.

And Japan apparently destroyed both points of view haha.

Indeed they did.

Anyway, what is wrong about your exemple is that 4 times out of 5, you'd get punished for knowing the stage more than your opponent : punished for being better.

i don' know what part of my argument is that a response to. I'll just skip it for now.

Well, I'm sorry that as a TO I want the better player to win. Maybe it's a matter of opinion, or maybe it's a matter of not killing the game.

I am a TO, and me and my community have liked the stage forever. I am yet to see a situation where randomness really makes a differe nce and it was impossible to avoid whatsoever.
That day my thoughts ofthe stage might change. As for now, I'll keep my stance.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Personally I completely disagree that the Japanese simply beat us because they play on fewer stages than we do. Practicing tricks on different stages does not make you worse on default stages, especially if it teaches you new fundamental tricks that refine your technical skill. And so I also hear the Japanese could also beat us on gay stages. This doesn't contradict my point at all either. If anything it just simply says to me they have more refined technical skill than we do, which stages is a mostly irrelevant factor in.

I mean come on, think about it. The Japanese in all seriousness beat us at playing this game FOR FUN.

They figure out random gimmicky **** much faster than we do, especially if it happens to be stage specific. Let's not get started about how more developed their item skills are than ours as well. I'll just cite Super Ganon Time to make my point clear.

Japan is a much smaller country and thus has a more compact and close knit competitive/gaming community. As long as this is true, I feel they will by default be better at exploring games seriously than the USA. Not to mention godlike wifi connections so I hear.

I mean this is pretty much true for how they approach any fighting game differently than the USA does. Japan just does it way more efficiently because their community is better set up for it. MvC3 is kinda a different situation simply because it's not as popular in Japan as it is in the USA in comparison, so thus they're not going to be beating the USA in tournament anytime soon. But even then you can tell the Japanese players that do invest in MvC3 still have a way of efficiently innovating and executing technology in a way and at a rate that America can't compare to.

Back to my original point, I see no reason to believe why stages are actually a legitimate distraction to developing solid fundamentals to this game. I mean the Japanese clearly have distracted themselves more heavily over things we would never even consider as being remotely competitive, and they're beating us.

 

[Linkshot]

if smash had fixed item spawn locations for each stage I'd be all for a (selective) pro-item ruleset

but that's not the case

Actually, that is the case. The problem is that there are a lot of spawn points so you can't focus a match away from them.

Also I 100% agree with A2's post above me.

 

[Flayl]

Actually, that is the case. The problem is that there are a lot of spawn points so you can't focus a match away from them.

Also I 100% agree with A2's post above me.

You misunderstood. I'm talking about having 2 or 3 sites that spawn in fixed intervals after an item is picked up. Also the first spawn would have to be parallel, it can't randomly favor one side of the stage.

 

[Linkshot]

Oh yeah, I totally understand that and would like items to spawn fairly like that, too.
Oh well, such is Smash Bros.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I lol'd so hard at the Christmas john.

In case it interests anyone, the item spawn points in Melee are a lot fewer (inbetween 5 and 10 on every legal stage), you should all play that with items.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I lol'd so hard at the Christmas john.

In case it interests anyone, the item spawn points in Melee are a lot fewer (inbetween 5 and 10 on every legal stage), you should all play that with items.

All the items in melee are generally weaker and far more fair than in brawl..

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

All the items in melee are generally weaker and far more fair than in brawl..

Except the Cloaking Device and maybe the Parasol. But overall, yeah.

Also, what M2K said. Let's PRACTICE instead of blaming stages. That won't do anything. Trying to copy the Japanese won't help. Actually practicing is the only feasible solution.

 

[Life]

I would disagree, on the point that all items in Melee come with explosive capsules/crates/barrels by necessity and that makes every spawn potentially screwy. Brawl does not have this problem, as containers can be turned off.

 

[Linkshot]

Except the Cloaking Device and maybe the Parasol. But overall, yeah.

Cloaking Device is just asking to get chaingrabbed for its whole duration and Parasol is a camping device. Also Peach can get Parasol's special bonus with her UpB. Also also we should play Bonus Mode.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Cloaking Device is just asking to get chaingrabbed for its whole duration and Parasol is a camping device. Also Peach can get Parasol's special bonus with her UpB. Also also we should play Bonus Mode.

Cloaking Device means you can take no damage, are harder to see, and frankly, makes it harder to get chaingrabbed anyway.

Parasol is an extra very powerful recovery tool.

And nah, Bonus Mode is fun, but that's all it's good for. We use stock in the same way we use HP, strongest in the end wins. Having a point system like Bonus doesn't work too well due to some bonuses just being flat out pointless for our purposes(Stale Moves being a good example). You also get more points for KO'ing, negative for SD's, and negative for being KO'd. I'd rather win by playing my best, and not by some very arbitary rules.

 

[DMG]

I mean I don't think I mind getting CG'd for no damage if it means I live lol

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean I don't think I mind getting CG'd for no damage if it means I live lol

And then the CG'ing player was treated unfairly. Some items aren't fit for competition, and that's just one of them. If they were good enough to pull it off that well, then there's no reason for them to screwed over by a broken item.

 

[DMG]

Not really. Depending on the CG, it would still lead into death or nasty stuff. Marth on Spacies you can still kill them if they DI offstage or you combo into it. Or if they stay onstage, keep it up til it wears off.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not really. Depending on the CG, it would still lead into death or nasty stuff. Marth on Spacies you can still kill them if they DI offstage or you combo into it. Or if they stay onstage, keep it up til it wears off.

Okay, it doesn't do much on CG's. What about the rest of the gameplay? You get to freely deal damage while they can't. That does... well, cost you a stock rather easily.

 

[GTZ]

Hopefully USA will get back in the game and the MK ban may help that.. I agree with the post, but the MK ban was inevitable

 

[etecoon]

Hopefully USA will get back in the game and the MK ban may help that.. I agree with the post, but the MK ban was inevitable

japan and europe aren't banning MK, the MK ban is only going to hurt the US internationally

 

[Akaku94]

I would argue the opposite. MK isn't nearly as dominant in Japan (for various reasons), for example, while the US has had a metagame focused solely around MK for some time. Proban and Antiban agree that MK is the metagame in the US, and banning him helps develop the metagame of other chars. As such, our mu experience with chars besides MK should go up.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Proban and Antiban agree that MK is the metagame in the US, and banning him helps develop the metagame of other chars. As such, our mu experience with chars besides MK should go up.

You're fooling yourself if you think people will progress in other match-ups when they were unable to learn the MK match-up. Learning the match-up against MK is a lot easier than learning the combined match-ups against Snake, Olimar and ICs and that list doesn't even include other important match-ups like Falco, Diddy, Pikachu ...

Somebody who has proven himself to be unable to get the MK match-up down within like the last two years can't be expected to learn vs Snake, Olimar and ICs together within the same amount of time tbqh. In the same hand people who have proven themselves to do well against MK were also able to find a way to deal with other problematic match-ups [such as M2K / ES@M learning what to do vs Diddy] a lot faster.

No, people will not get better against Falco, Diddy or Marth through banning MK, unless they were already good vs MK to begin with [in which case they don't need MK banned to learn the other match-ups anyway].

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

You're fooling yourself if you think people will progress in other match-ups when they were unable to learn the MK match-up. Learning the match-up against MK is a lot easier than learning the combined match-ups against Snake, Olimar and ICs and that list doesn't even include other important match-ups like Falco, Diddy, Pikachu ...

Somebody who has proven himself to be unable to get the MK match-up down within like the last two years can't be expected to learn vs Snake, Olimar and ICs together within the same amount of time tbqh. In the same hand people who have proven themselves to do well against MK were also able to find a way to deal with other problematic match-ups [such as M2K / ES@M learning what to do vs Diddy] a lot faster.

No, people will not get better against Falco, Diddy or Marth through banning MK, unless they were already good vs MK to begin with [in which case they don't need MK banned to learn the other match-ups anyway].

That makes sense, I have a feeling MK won't be banned much longer. I think it's just one of those Brawl phases.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're fooling yourself if you think people will progress in other match-ups when they were unable to learn the MK match-up. Learning the match-up against MK is a lot easier than learning the combined match-ups against Snake, Olimar and ICs and that list doesn't even include other important match-ups like Falco, Diddy, Pikachu ...

It's easier ONLY because the other ones are barely played. They'll learn it only because they can finally fight them. Whether or not it'll work doesn't matter. It cannot work with MK Legal, but atleast it can work him banned. He stales up the metagame, and there's no longer any match-up worth learning since he's all that matters.

Somebody who has proven himself to be unable to get the MK match-up down within like the last two years can't be expected to learn vs Snake, Olimar and ICs together within the same amount of time tbqh. In the same hand people who have proven themselves to do well against MK were also able to find a way to deal with other problematic match-ups [such as M2K / ES@M learning what to do vs Diddy] a lot faster.

That wouldn't happen to be because MK is just too damn good, right? One of the biggest problems is that his planking is nigh unbeatable. But he can't keep doing it only because of the LGL. If we remove that LGL, we can find a way around it. If he's not limited, we have better chance of finding the best way to fight it. The problem with nerfing him is that it restricts how we can fight him. It's unacceptable to do this. But it also brings up the other obvious problem; If we have to nerf him to make him acceptable for play, then he's clearly not acceptable and should be banned by that alone.

No, people will not get better against Falco, Diddy or Marth through banning MK, unless they were already good vs MK to begin with [in which case they don't need MK banned to learn the other match-ups anyway].

This is utter bull. They'll get better because they can fight against them more. MK is the most practiced match-up because he's the most common. If he wasn't played that much, I'm sure we wouldn't even have this problem either. Of course, he's played so much because he's the best character in the game bar none, and nobody can go even with him(and it cannot be proven if the LGL exists, since it affects match-ups and limits things). People keep citing that characters go even with him, but this is only while MK is nerfed. So let's remove the LGL. That way, if a character can go even with him, they'll do so without an arbitrary rule.

 

[Cassio]

Goddang that is some potent theorycraft, especially when compared with Gheb's experience and result based post. Bringing up the lgl when it didnt relate to his post at all was the cherry on top of that massive theorycraft sunday.

 

[DMG]

Well I would like a game where you are worried about "too many characters" than "Play MK or learn how to beat him". As far as other characters evolving more due to MK being gone, I think that is false because a lot of characters evolved through a need to be better vs MK. The desire and need to be good vs MK or else face a tough tournament life has sprung a lot of advancements in character development. Not everything that has come up is specifically because of MK, but you know players honed down ridiculous timings, spacings, new techniques and ideas to deal with MK.


Even if we were able to go back in time and test out whether things developed similar regardless of MK, we're already in a pretty developed metagame so far and most changes in the tier list/metagame would be due to eventual refining and perfecting of MU's. Pikachu isn't gonna find an infinite on Snake to make the MU impossible or Dedede gets a random combo on Olimar that leads into his death, but these MU's will be mulled over more and become more exact for both sides.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm talking about evolving their metagames versus other characters. I know they got better vs one guy, but they didn't evolve vs the rest of the cast. Which is what this does.

And as for that testing, I think if we never had the LGL(or that early), all the metagames would've heavily evolved. So that's another obvious problem.

It applies to Items in general, and some stages which were banned without good testing.

 

[Akaku94]

The lgl should never have been universal, and the fact that it only needs to apply to MK shows how unstoppable he was. Without opening the proban/antiban can of worms, I digress.

It's undeniable that for every single character in the game, the most important aspect of their metagame was the MK matchup. Now, it will be their various counters, even those in lower tiers.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I think we're giving Japan a little too much credit. America players seem to do this all the time.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm talking about evolving their metagames versus other characters. I know they got better vs one guy, but they didn't evolve vs the rest of the cast.

They've had PLENTY opportunity to do so. You make it sound as if MK was the only opponent that people ever got the chance to play against and therefore there was no way for anybody to learn a match-up other than MK.

That's straight-up bull****.

The lgl should never have been universal, and the fact that it only needs to apply to MK shows how unstoppable he was.

LGL is only needed if % is the time-out clause.

I think we're giving Japan a little too much credit. America players seem to do this all the time.

All the time? Up until Apex '12 almost everybody had a strong tendency to underrate them. It's true that a lot of people give them more credit than they should right now [based on their actual knowledge of the japanese scene or rather lack thereof] but it hasn't been like that "all the time".

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What else could you have as a time-out clause?

 

[Linkshot]

What else could you have as a time-out clause?

I've always proposed 2 minutes of coin on the same stage. If a planker tries to defend himself, coins will pop out of the loser and the leader has to either:

1) Leave his safe spot to grab them, or
2) Let the loser pick up his own coins and take the lead

You only actually lose coins when you lose a stock. Hitting just spawns coins.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Coin mode completely changes the secondary win condition to something that is unrelated to our primary win condition.

In layman's terms, collecting coins is very different from just trying to hit the opponent and the correlation with taking stocks is completely different.

 

[Roller]

this thread is amusing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honsetly, at this point I don't see what's so bad about just playing sudden death upon a time-out.

 

[-LzR-]

Sudden death is bad, but you know you are attempting it when the timer is running out, so I don't see anything too bad about it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's bad but you don't see anything too bad about it

 

[Damix91]

I would suggest Japan are better because they practice harder. Its speculation but you must all know the difference in work ethic in that part of the world. A lot of top players in the West barely practice.

I mean Ikki and 9B learnt the SNL with their characters just to use against Diddy who's not even that dominant in their metagame.

 

[-LzR-]

It's bad but you don't see anything too bad about it

Well, too bad is worse than bad so I don't see a problem

 

[Akaku94]

I'm curious now... why don't we use the game's sudden death?