The real reason Japan is better than America

[Yikarur]

you both are idiots at times

 

[kraftydevil]

Ask Hylian what he has to say about this. He posted either here or in another thread what he saw from both tournament and friendly matches between the Japanese and Americans – they kicked the crap out of us.

I can take your word for it, but I'm looking for some sort of analysis to objectively see how bad the situation is.

Smashboards hates me right now... anyway, this is what I meant to put as a response to krafty:

There there - you will also be assimilated.

 

[Cassio]

I dont think anyone assumed stages were literally the only reason. But many consider it a factor.

For everybody just tuning into this thread because of Omni:

France and a lot of top European players play exclusively on Smashville. Why aren't they better than Japan?

Mr. R is the smashville God. Everytime I watch him play there he looks 10x better than on any other stage.

 

[TreK]

to the guy that said pictochat doesn't kill people unlegitly :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkcSZwAKEkc&t=5m38s

'bout france/europe :
1) we had the game almost 8 months later than you.
2) our competitive community is reaaaally small. The 'monthlies' in Paris take place once every three months. And only 40-50 people come.
3) no one ever travels because we have to adapt to the local language and it's a pain in the pokéballs.
4) the only european platform we use is a msn bot. Every country gets things done by the means it possesses (exemple : german smash boards, storm armada (france),...)
5) idk about you guys in america, but organising tourneys is reaaaally hard for us. Most TOs abandon the game after 2 tourneys max because they lose too much money. In France, you'll only see tournies in Paris and Lille, except like 2 per year in Dijon, one in Lyon, and one in Marseille.
6) we like to do pointless flashy stuff.

2cents.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Nah, I just argue like that. It's on purpose and promotes smart discussion, as those who are defeated by dumb arguments leave immediately.

Well, glad to know we agree on something.

Do you have legit proof for this? Not that I don't believe you, but I would rather not have to test it to be 100% sure.

You can either take my word on it or test it to make sure for yourself. This isn't rocket science.

1. This applies to turnips and is void because of it.

What is this I don't even

2. You should be playing with the knowledge that the wall could come up.

You could apply this to almost any hazard on any stage. Imagine a battlefield clone where, every 5-10 seconds, a OHKO explosion appears somewhere with no warning randomly on the stage. Clearly, this is a randomizing effect that is completely unacceptable in tournament play... And yet, somehow, "You should be playing with the knowledge that the explosion could come up". Stupid argument. Try giving me a smart one.

Within that 10 second range you should be playing with the knowledge that the stage will change.

...Yeah. Yeah, you do that.

I know this thread is a little old, but I've been saying this **** since 2009 and no one seemed to give a ****.

The same exact points as well, as a matter of fact 1 particular thread me and TKD both went on for about 3 weeks or so with every valid point imaginable and all anyone thought to do (mostly the much worse players) was to try and nit pick points that really had nothing to do with the entire point as a whole.

I remember vehemently disagreeing with you and referring to both you and TKD as idiots. My sincerest apologies for that.

 

[DAS]

This tournament seems to have been a real eye opener to some people. I think it was a simple we got outplayed because they put in more into the game than us.

I always felt we needed that though.

 

[Arcansi]

What is this I don't even

Turnips = acceptable randomness. Anything that falls under less then or equal to that much randomness has to be acceptable, therefore.

You could apply this to almost any hazard on any stage. Imagine a battlefield clone where, every 5-10 seconds, a OHKO explosion appears somewhere with no warning randomly on the stage. Clearly, this is a randomizing effect that is completely unacceptable in tournament play... And yet, somehow, "You should be playing with the knowledge that the explosion could come up". Stupid argument. Try giving me a smart one.

This is true.

However it has to do with a couple things that we should change to give your analogy truth.

1. Frequency. Change the explosion to every 25-30 seconds. (this causes gameplay on the stage to be very different tempo wise from normal gameplay, which isn't a bad thing. It's still overall bad because of random and OHKO, but we'll get to that.)


2. Lethality. We can only die from the explosion if our opponent is hitting us at the time. (This makes it so only the person getting outplayed at that particular moment can die. It's still very tempo based (at high level play you WOULD play around the explosion) but insures much less random deaths and also the fact that people being stagnant during that time would cause nobody to die ever from it.)

3. Randomness. The Explosion now has a random move 'grouping' assigned to it, and you can only die if you are being hit by a move within that move grouping during such a time as the explosion appears on you. The groupings are Ground / Aerial. Being grabbed or in hitstun (before you could airdodge) will always hit you.

And, Finally, 4. Skill Testing. The explsion only kills on the first frame (imagine it being in the middle of a bomb-ombs explosion and a blast box's explosion). However, the explosion STAYS for an extra 7 seconds, during which time (given 30 frames after it appears) anyone who enters the explosion takes 30-50% damage, most of which can be negated by teching the air. (This causes it to be completely arguable. Sure, every once in a while it may cause a random unearned win. But this happens with halberd claw, G&W hammer, Peach's Turnips, DDD's Gordo, YI Ghost/Shy Guy, ETC. However, it also tests skill in its own unique way, one that adds skill definition to the game, and for that it is arguable just as not banning the randomness of moves or things like halberd or YI are.)

Hmm? Your analogy seems to make sense now.

 

[Mr-R]

Europe is nowhere near as competitive as Japan. Our best player uses Wario and the 2nd best uses Marth. We have Peach as like 14th but ICs as only 6th or 7th on our tier list. We choose to play with tactics we know to be less efficient for the sake of having more fun. Some of our better players don't even play this game outside of tourney at all, few thoroughly dedicate themselves to one single, viable character.

That's why Japan is much more competitive than US.
Or the USA for that matter.

Our best player uses Wario

Our best player uses Wario

Our best player uses Wario

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[ぱみゅ]

There is a point where knowing Pictochat is enough to laugh at "randomly spawning hazards", and they become a problem after they appear and your opponent tries to push them to them. That's just another kind of pressure.

The line is another pressure factor: If the stage is blank, you're offstage, and the line hasn't appeared yet (that's a lot of circumpstances!), you shouldn't aim to the ledge. A little knowledge that may save your life stock.
Yes, your opponent might punish you for landing onstage. I don't consider that's any worse than current Orpheon metagame.

As for walls I've been wondering lately if we've just been playing the stage wrong. As in, it would be great to know which characters can somehow wall lock opponents, and if it is safe to throw that move or not.
As in, if the stage is blank and your opponent near as MK, start throwing Dtilts. They are safe in both block and whiff (and hit at non-very low percents), so, you might get an extreme reward for attemping to do so, or not get anything at all.
With the same logic, if you know your opponent has a move like this, don't approach at all if the stage is blank.

That's just a little brainstorming I had lately.

 

[King Funk]

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I smell sodium. Everywhere.

 

[DMG]

I mean it's fair to say most people assume Gluttony is your best player.

 

[Mr-R]

 

[DMG]

Like I said in my post, assume being the key word

 

[Kuro~]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^LOOOOOOOL

Ramin u mad?


DMG ninja'n me

 

[-LzR-]

There is a point where knowing Pictochat is enough to laugh at "randomly spawning hazards", and they become a problem after they appear and your opponent tries to push them to them. That's just another kind of pressure.

"I'm going to pressure you and hope a wall or **** spawns on you!" That is a really good strategy, competitive at it's best.

The line is another pressure factor: If the stage is blank, you're offstage, and the line hasn't appeared yet (that's a lot of circumpstances!), you shouldn't aim to the ledge. A little knowledge that may save your life stock.

Yes... Lets' not recover to the ledge because of a once in a 100 matches something bad might happen and get punished for it. If the line appeared like once a minute, this would be ok, but no, people generally don't expect something that very rarely happens to happen here. What you are trying to say is that players should start to predict pure randomness.

Yes, your opponent might punish you for landing onstage. I don't consider that's any worse than current Orpheon metagame.

That is a very extreme example. A character with the games best punishing move against a character with the worst recovery of any viable character on a recovery situation. And I still don't get your point. You can like, you know, NOT go to the right side of the stage since there is a ledge on the left side? Vinnie totally deserved that stock. And unlike Picto, that part of Frigate never has a ledge and moves in a perfectly predictable pattern, I don't see how you can compare that to a very rare case in Picto.

As for walls I've been wondering lately if we've just been playing the stage wrong. As in, it would be great to know which characters can somehow wall lock opponents, and if it is safe to throw that move or not.
As in, if the stage is blank and your opponent near as MK, start throwing Dtilts. They are safe in both block and whiff (and hit at non-very low percents), so, you might get an extreme reward for attemping to do so, or not get anything at all.
With the same logic, if you know your opponent has a move like this, don't approach at all if the stage is blank.

So you are saying it's ok to throw out a move and hope you get lucky and land a 80%+ walllock? That is extremely dumb, a tactic relying on uncontrolled luck.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And this is the part where I re-state the obvious statement I made before:
You might not like the stage. I might like it. People everyewhere will have different opinions.

I say that it is okay to optimize your possible reward from a small move by actually attempting to wall lock.
You say it is not.

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

 

[-LzR-]

What are you talking about, I LOVE PICTOCHAT! It's one of my favorite stages. I even counterpicked it a lot just because I enjoyed playing there. Literally all good players in Finland knew everything about Picto, but bull**** still happened and it was generally accepted that we ban it.
I used to support Picto only a few weeks ago, using very similar arguments you are now using.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

I agree with the stage list but OCEAN beat m2k due to m2k being terrible at apex. he really was not the same player he usually is.

 

[-LzR-]

Well I don't think M2K practiced hard at all for Apex as he know it is going to be like his last tourney or something
I wouldn't if I was him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gluto has done a little more than nothing during the last 2 years, Ramin. If it makes you feel better you can also switch it up to "#1 uses Marth, #2 uses Wario" or something and my point remains the same =/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can anyone think of a set that I can watch which really displays Gluttony's skill?

My internet quota ran out, so I can't watch several videos until I find a good one.

 

[PMC66]

if this point hasn't been made before I can actually tell you all why US got bodied so hard.

1. videos of the top players are widely avaliable and easy to search for on youtube so the Japanese went in knowing what to expect it's clear from some of the matches they went in prepared even against Players they had never fought before.

2. Apex took place in early January straight after christmas many players wouldn't have been practicing as much or not at all over december, I think Ally said he spent more than a month whith his girlfriend so he wasn't preparing in that period though i don't count him as US i count him as Canada. Japan; however don't celebrate christmas so they would have had a at least extra month practice and more preperation time, whilst the Japanese were probably jet lagged to hell they had more than 2 weeks to adjust which is plenty of time not to have their performance crippled by traveling half way accross the planet. SO basically they had time to study all of you prepared came over and bodied all of you.

3. America's strongest players are Meta Knight mains, Meta Knight allowed tournies decreased in number as a result of the unity rulest ban which meant tournaments with MK legal started declining 4 months before Apex meaning they would have been getting much less practice.

 

[-LzR-]

Johns, so many jonhs. America lost because the Japanese are awesome. Also there were only a few Japanes who were mostly top players while Americans had even lower level players so ofc they are gonna do better overall.
And your last point also is bad. Care to explain why it was the MKs that did so well if they were lacking practice?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Turnips = acceptable randomness. Anything that falls under less then or equal to that much randomness has to be acceptable, therefore.



This is true.

However it has to do with a couple things that we should change to give your analogy truth.

1. Frequency. Change the explosion to every 25-30 seconds. (this causes gameplay on the stage to be very different tempo wise from normal gameplay, which isn't a bad thing. It's still overall bad because of random and OHKO, but we'll get to that.)


2. Lethality. We can only die from the explosion if our opponent is hitting us at the time. (This makes it so only the person getting outplayed at that particular moment can die. It's still very tempo based (at high level play you WOULD play around the explosion) but insures much less random deaths and also the fact that people being stagnant during that time would cause nobody to die ever from it.)

3. Randomness. The Explosion now has a random move 'grouping' assigned to it, and you can only die if you are being hit by a move within that move grouping during such a time as the explosion appears on you. The groupings are Ground / Aerial. Being grabbed or in hitstun (before you could airdodge) will always hit you.

And, Finally, 4. Skill Testing. The explsion only kills on the first frame (imagine it being in the middle of a bomb-ombs explosion and a blast box's explosion). However, the explosion STAYS for an extra 7 seconds, during which time (given 30 frames after it appears) anyone who enters the explosion takes 30-50% damage, most of which can be negated by teching the air. (This causes it to be completely arguable. Sure, every once in a while it may cause a random unearned win. But this happens with halberd claw, G&W hammer, Peach's Turnips, DDD's Gordo, YI Ghost/Shy Guy, ETC. However, it also tests skill in its own unique way, one that adds skill definition to the game, and for that it is arguable just as not banning the randomness of moves or things like halberd or YI are.)

Hmm? Your analogy seems to make sense now.

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We're done here.

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The other one he's talking about is Leon.

 

[Mr-R]

Gluto has done a little more than nothing during the last 2 years, Ramin. If it makes you feel better you can also switch it up to "#1 uses Marth, #2 uses Wario" or something and my point remains the same =/

nah i really didn't care bout being 1st, like if u said lp orr leon was 1st then ok i wouldnt mind that much, but glutonny is the LAST person i'd put on 1st

 

[-LzR-]

B... But... HE BEAT ALLY FOREVER AGO D:

 

[TreK]

The line is another pressure factor: If the stage is blank, you're offstage, and the line hasn't appeared yet (that's a lot of circumpstances!), you shouldn't aim to the ledge. A little knowledge that may save your life stock.
Yes, your opponent might punish you for landing onstage. I don't consider that's any worse than current Orpheon metagame.

Since that part is an answer to my post, I'll answer it by changing every occurrence of the word 'stage' by the word 'item' and 'random line that pops in front of you when you're offstage' by 'random bobomb that pops in front of you when you're charging a smash'.
And then I'll pretend it's a good point. Good enough to bring back items to tourneys.

But is it really necessary ?

As soon as you're more fighting the stage than the opponent, it's a banworthy stage. And I say that as a diddy main : having PC and JJ as starters would be good for me haha


I saw glutto last month. And he beat Leon after not playing in a single tourney for a year. Fun stuff.

 

[King Funk]

nah i really didn't care bout being 1st, like if u said lp orr leon was 1st then ok i wouldnt mind that much, but glutonny is the LAST person i'd put on 1st

Even I deserve to be ranked above Glutonny cuz I been to Germany n ****.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What are you talking about, I LOVE PICTOCHAT! It's one of my favorite stages. I even counterpicked it a lot just because I enjoyed playing there. Literally all good players in Finland knew everything about Picto, but bull**** still happened and it was generally accepted that we ban it.
I used to support Picto only a few weeks ago, using very similar arguments you are now using.

Okay then, let me rephrase it and bold the changes I made.

And this is the part where I re-state the obvious statement I made before:
You might not like the stage competitively. I might like it. People everywhere will have different opinions.

I say that it is okay to optimize your possible reward from a small move by actually attempting to wall lock.
You say that is not okay for competition.

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

I hope that'll be enough.

Since that part is an answer to my post, I'll answer it by changing every occurrence of the word 'stage' by the word 'item' and 'random line that pops in front of you when you're offstage' by 'random bobomb that pops in front of you when you're charging a smash'.
And then I'll pretend it's a good point. Good enough to bring back items to tourneys.

There is a small but important difference: the line appears only in that one spot, only 5-10 seconds after the previous transformation disappeard, and will only remove the ledge.
I'm pretty sure people can try to play avoiding a ledge within intervals, which we have been already doing on Orpheon. That's my point.

But is it really necessary?

No, it's a game of opinions.

As soon as you're more fighting the stage than the opponent, it's a banworthy stage.

That's, like, your opinion.
I always have considered Brawl a slow enough game so we can try to focus in the stages at the same time than opponents. but that's my opinion.

And I say that as a diddy main : having PC and JJ as starters would be good for me haha

Good for you.

 

[Striker X]

Or they had more time.

Japan got brawl a few months earlier iirc.

 

[Xaltis]

A few months means nothing. When we've had the game for like 2 years.

 

[Life]

Brawl is about four years old.

Japan does play and practice more than we do. That's the difference.

 

[Xaltis]

Brawl is about four years old.

Japan does play and practice more than we do. That's the difference.

Basically. And add in the fact that they worry about themselves other than the stages. Although this was probably said so many times by now.

 

[Tesh]

Speculation and johns, although this was probably said so many times by now.

 

[Akaku94]

People can read into this whatever they want. If you hate "cheap" stages, you're likely to use this as evidence that tiny stagelists are better because Japan uses them. If you think timers should be longer, you're likely to see this as proof that a 10-minute timer is better. If you're anti-ban, you'll see evidence that MK isn't broken. And the list goes on and on. The only thing Apex proved was that Japanese players outplayed American players at the tournament. That's it. You can reasonably infer some things, like concluding that Japan practices more, or that their tech skill is better. However, trying to attribute it to specific aspects of the Japanese ruleset is absurd.

Maybe Japan is better because they spend more time actually playing and less time whining on message boards about what they think is wrong with the ruleset.

Just Saying.

 

[-LzR-]

There is a small but important difference: the line appears only in that one spot, only 5-10 seconds after the previous transformation disappeard, and will only remove the ledge.
I'm pretty sure people can try to play avoiding a ledge within intervals, which we have been already doing on Orpheon. That's my point.

You cannot compare the line to Frigates right side at all. The ledge isn't there at all, unlike for 98% of the time so you can predict it.
If SV platform would randomly bounce upwards, doing a StarKO similar to landmaster, was unavoidably fast and absolutely unpredictable. It would be bad. But if it only happened 1/1000 matches, it would be totally ok, right? Just don't go the platform when it happens?

That's, like, your opinion.
I always have considered Brawl a slow enough game so we can try to focus in the stages at the same time than opponents. but that's my opinion.

Doesn't apply to Picto since the drawings are too fast.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You cannot compare the line to Frigates right side at all. The ledge isn't there at all, unlike for 98% of the time so you can predict it.
If SV platform would randomly bounce upwards, doing a StarKO similar to landmaster, was unavoidably fast and absolutely unpredictable. It would be bad. But if it only happened 1/1000 matches, it would be totally ok, right? Just don't go the platform when it happens?

If it did people would avoid getting the platform, no matter how often that occurs. Or at least I wouldn't put myself in such a risky position.

Doesn't apply to Picto since the drawings are too fast.

Who ever talked about react to it?

 

[-LzR-]

We are going in circles. I won't bother respond to that.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I never understand why people though all items should be banned no questions asked, but YO STAGES DAT FLIP AROUND AND SHOOT LASERS AND **** AT YOU DAS FINE

 

[TreK]

There is a small but important difference: the line appears only in that one spot, only 5-10 seconds after the previous transformation disappeard, and will only remove the ledge.
I'm pretty sure people can try to play avoiding a ledge within intervals, which we have been already doing on Orpheon. That's my point.

And though I agree with focus and multitask being a primordial skill in brawl (half of my mindgame is oral haha), here it's not the opponent that makes you multitask, and thus, it's not the players which make the difference.
The point of the counterpicking system is not 'let's make stages have an impact on gameplay', it's 'let's reduce the impact of characters so the better player can win'. And Japan apparently destroyed both points of view haha.

Anyway, what is wrong about your exemple is that 4 times out of 5, you'd get punished for knowing the stage more than your opponent : punished for being better.

Well, I'm sorry that as a TO I want the better player to win. Maybe it's a matter of opinion, or maybe it's a matter of not killing the game.