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The real reason Japan is better than America

ぱみゅ

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So YI:B has 3-4 elements and Pictochat has 27.
On a black and white basis, number is not important, but the fact is is random and "interferring" in the match.

Johnny Salts the platform ghost is nothing compared to spikes, missiles, and camp boxes showing up.
The boxes or whatever camp transformation lasts 10-15 seconds. Not as bad as PS1.
And if you know the stage Hazards should not hit you unless you got outplayed.
 

Kink-Link5

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So YI:B has 3-4 elements and Pictochat has 27.
On a black and white basis, number is not important, but the fact is is random and "interferring" in the match.

The boxes or whatever camp transformation lasts 10-15 seconds. Not as bad as PS1.
And if you know the stage Hazards should not hit you unless you got outplayed.
Or they spawn on top of you. You know, whatever.

Let's make Electroplankton legal, that stage is never random.
 

ぱみゅ

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I knew that Samus was a bad character, but I didn't realize that using her caused blindness, preventing the user from seeing the very obvious shy guys flying around.
A lot of times is not "obvious", shy guys can be on the back of a slope, randomly popping in fron of you, or more rarely, on your spot, so they block the projectyle in that exact spot.

A lot of random blocks can hapen in that stage.

Or they spawn on top of you. You know, whatever.
lol
I won't reply to this just because you should know about your safety zone on Pictochat.
Let's make Electroplankton legal, that stage is never random.
Hanenbow's circle camping is arguable, and very similar to Norfair, where if you get circle camped, your character is proabably bad at chasing opponents anyways.
 

Tesh

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The safety zone is a myth. It only exists in training mode. ALL the transformations are an issue because there isn't fair warning. You can both be in this "safe zone" and something randomly happens that has nothing to do with stage knowledge or outplaying someone. I've seen and experience walls saving and punishing people within that "safe zone", or people being punished within the safe zone, only to get punished some more because of bull**** popping up.

THERE IS NO SAFE ZONE!
 

ぱみゅ

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And this is why I hate discussing Pictochat.

Walls in Pictochat have always been debatable. They appear at random, but you can't get areward from them unless someone really screws up or you actually look for it. If you don't get that reward, guess who's the one who'll be screwed?

KL5, from your post I can only understand you just hate the stage and how it is supposed to play on it. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.
 

Kink-Link5

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A stage restricted to a playing field smaller than Metal Cavern is very legitimate reason to say there's something wrong with it.

Also, you're supposed to play Rainbow Cruise by keeping up with the stage and the opponent, it does not mean the stage is good just because you know how to play on it.
 

Tesh

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And this is why I hate discussing Pictochat.

Walls in Pictochat have always been debatable. They appear at random, but you can't get areward from them unless someone really screws up or you actually look for it. If you don't get that reward, guess who's the one who'll be screwed?

KL5, from your post I can only understand you just hate the stage and how it is supposed to play on it. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with it.
What does that even mean? Are you trying to say that if I'm fighting in close combat (jabs, spotdodges , grab) and a wall pops up and seperates us, no one gained or lost anything?

I think I'm done even trying to discuss Pictochat...
 

ぱみゅ

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What does that even mean? Are you trying to say that if I'm fighting in close combat (jabs, spotdodges , grab) and a wall pops up and seperates us, no one gained or lost anything?
In that one example, you just got a position reset, and there's nothing wrong with it.

I think I'm done even trying to discuss Pictochat...
That's my line, it's not like knowing the stage and keep arguing will somehow make it come back.
 

Kink-Link5

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Yes, I suppose that is how the rule of inverse sentences works.

But I mean, it's kind of like going

X is not A

X is not B

Therefore, A is B.

The two aren't necessarily connected just because they share a common unrelation.
 

Akaku94

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You're saying that the stage is broken, and that knowing the stage doesn't make it less broken. I'm saying that there's nothing wrong with the stage, and the vast majority of what people think is gay or cheap about the stage is a result of them not knowing the stage.
 

Omni

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Seems like a healthy discussion.

Featured Topic'd.

Keep off-topic posts to a minimum, please.
 

kraftydevil

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First rule of the Krafty Ruleset: Final Destination only.

Otherwise, don't worry about the Japanese. Do you think they approach this game by worrying about U.S. players? I'm not sure what they do, but there are techniques you can use improve your play against anyone.

What follows is what I found in a book that is about improving your skills in anything. I will list the author later when I find the book:

So you want to know why the Japanese have the upper hand? To answer, take a look at the reason why Brazil has won more Futbol/Soccer World Cup championships than any other nation: a game called 'Futsal'. Wikipedia link here.

Futsal is basically a miniature version of soccer with a smaller ball and a smaller field. What that means is that the ball itself is harder to control and there is less space between a player and their opponent.

Many star soccer players had never even touched a real soccer ball until they were in their late teens! And yet, Brazil keeps pumping out great soccer players and great teams. Not only do they have more championships, but they also seem to always place in the top 3.

So how the heck would a miniature game of soccer make players better at real soccer? It has to do with the transition that's made from Futsal to soccer. Brazilian players handle a soccer ball better because they are trained to handle a more difficult ball and smaller ball. When they graduate to real soccer, they have a better feel and their touches are more precise. The ball is not coming off their toes out in front of them when receiving a pass and they make better passes. Not to mention better shots on goal!

It's the same thing with the field size. A smaller field means opponents are moreso on top of you. This translates to soccer very nicely, as a former Futsal player will have a larger zone of comfortability. They will panic less and screw up less because they are used to players being closer to them and they know what to do.

So what I would do to get better at anything is to make a miniature game that makes things harder and limits you in some way. I'm not sure how this translates to Smash Brothers but I bet playing custom matches with certain settings might do the trick. Maybe play with BIG characters so that when you are normal size, it feels like there is a ton of space in between you and your opponent.

But it might be the case that there is no setting for what you want to do. In that case, just play with some dedicated people who will adhere to certain rules with the intention of training. Maybe play an opponent where you don't use a certain button or you don't use a certain tactic. Sometimes when you limit yourself you find new and creative ways to kick butt. That gives you options and options gives you a higher degree of unpredictability.

Make some mini games and share...or don't if you want to keep training secrets!
 

Tesh

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Seems like a healthy discussion.

Featured Topic'd.

Keep off-topic posts to a minimum, please.
Kind of late featuring this now that everything relating to the title is pretty much done with.
 

Grim Tuesday

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A lot of times is not "obvious", shy guys can be on the back of a slope, randomly popping in fron of you, or more rarely, on your spot, so they block the projectyle in that exact spot.

A lot of random blocks can hapen in that stage.
I somehow missed this before.

Shy Guys fly from one side of the stage to the other, they don't "randomly pop in front of you".
 

Arcansi

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Pictochat bombards you with random events every 15ish seconds all over the stage. Its alot easier to consider that the platform might randomly move and cause platform cancels, shy guys might **** block your projectiles or extend some hitboxes/stale some moves on stage (thats TWO things for the entire on stage gameplay) and consider that while recovering or edgeguarding, ONE thing might happen at a random time.
1. It's every 26.66 or so.

2. It being easier to consider doesn't matter. It's easier to consider you might randomly die from lets say, a down throw into a nine at 0% on BF, but does that make it easier to deal with?


Pictochat has dozens of random things at random times in random *** spots that can **** you up in a number of ways wherever you are.
1. Does not happen at a random time, happens at a fixed time.

2. Isn't this the same as peach pulling a random lightsaber and randomly killing you because of it?

Johnny Salts the platform ghost is nothing compared to spikes, missiles, and camp boxes showing up.
All of which can be avoided by smart play. Every time.

The safety zone is a myth. It only exists in training mode. ALL the transformations are an issue because there isn't fair warning. You can both be in this "safe zone" and something randomly happens that has nothing to do with stage knowledge or outplaying someone. I've seen and experience walls saving and punishing people within that "safe zone", or people being punished within the safe zone, only to get punished some more because of bull**** popping up.
1. There is fair warning, there is 13.33 seconds of transformation and then 13.33 seconds of none. You may not be able to see it, but it's just like lylat. When something new will come is predetermined.

2. Perhaps because people aren't playing with the knowledge that a transformation will come. People honestly should be playing with this knowledge, and then come back and say they got gimped by a transformation.


THERE IS NO SAFE ZONE!
Yes, yes there is.

I somehow missed this before.

Shy Guys fly from one side of the stage to the other, they don't "randomly pop in front of you".
Note that spikes come up from one side of the stage to the other, as does every transformation ever.

Also note that shy guys flying(from the sky) in can easily get in the way of some grounded aura spheres/turnips/missles, espicially if they were on the way to the target and the shy guy came in 3/4 of the way there.
 

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The words of someone who thinks that percentage is more important than positional advantage.
In Pictochat there is no "positional advantage", is always a neutral or disvantageous (bad) position.

I always thought it was 18 second intervals.
Blank lasts from 5 to 15 seconds, and transformations 10-20ish, I'll go check my facts straight.
 

Arcansi

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In Pictochat there is no "positional advantage", is always a neutral or disvantageous (bad) position.


If your opponent is in a bad position and you are not, it can be said that you are in a good position.

Among other things, like being in a position that allows you to easily put your opponent in a bad position, etc.
 

DMG

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I can put my opponent in a bad spot starting from any position on the stage. Except we both don't know where specifically because it will be random.
 

ぱみゅ

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Because it is not "bad" per se, is "Potentially Bad" is just about put your opponent where stuff may appear.
Anyone that knows the stage do not want to be in that potentially bad spot.
 

DMG

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You can put your opponent INTO a potentially bad spot from any realistic spot on the stage. You can avoid very specific hazards in certain spots, but to be totally safe from anything that could happen is not feasible. I can avoid the flower by being to the far sides, but that opens me up to other ****. I can avoid the spikes by being in the middle but there's other **** that covers the middle. If it were "Hey the spikes ARE coming next, 3-2-1 GO" then yeah you could easily say you're a flerp derp for not positioning away from them or avoiding getting into that spot.


And it's not even like half of the scenarios involve skill or "I knew it was gonna happen". We can start on the left side, I hit you with something that should kill, and all of a sudden a wall saves you. Are you really gonna say "Well a pro player would know to DI that way since the wall might come up"? Or you should throw out tech inputs at certain hot spots just to be safe even if it means opening yourself up airdodging if nothing is there?


If the stage followed a pattern or gave more warning, sure. Knowing that the stage spawns something every x seconds doesn't help when it's instant or near instant, and not knowing what will spawn isn't helpful either.
 

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So, awareness can't be a skill?
You must be on perfect control of whatever is happening?
Oh wait, you also go for Brinstar and RC to be banned so... I think you have a very different way to see stages than me.
 

Arcansi

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If the stage followed a pattern or gave more warning, sure. Knowing that the stage spawns something every x seconds doesn't help when it's instant or near instant, and not knowing what will spawn isn't helpful either.
Yes, yes it does. It falls under acceptable randomness because...

The same argument could be applied to DDD's minion toss, Peach's turnip pull, G&W's Hammer, Luigis Green Missle, and probably more.
 

Tesh

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1. It's every 26.66 or so.

2. It being easier to consider doesn't matter. It's easier to consider you might randomly die from lets say, a down throw into a nine at 0% on BF, but does that make it easier to deal with?




1. Does not happen at a random time, happens at a fixed time.

2. Isn't this the same as peach pulling a random lightsaber and randomly killing you because of it?



All of which can be avoided by smart play. Every time.



1. There is fair warning, there is 13.33 seconds of transformation and then 13.33 seconds of none. You may not be able to see it, but it's just like lylat. When something new will come is predetermined.

2. Perhaps because people aren't playing with the knowledge that a transformation will come. People honestly should be playing with this knowledge, and then come back and say they got gimped by a transformation.




Yes, yes there is.



Note that spikes come up from one side of the stage to the other, as does every transformation ever.

Also note that shy guys flying(from the sky) in can easily get in the way of some grounded aura spheres/turnips/missles, espicially if they were on the way to the target and the shy guy came in 3/4 of the way there.
Yes, yes it does. It falls under acceptable randomness because...

The same argument could be applied to DDD's minion toss, Peach's turnip pull, G&W's Hammer, Luigis Green Missle, and probably more.
player initiated random factors automatically at least a step above, because they don't happen at random TIMES. If pictochat actually ran on a strict timer, it would be fine because at certain EXACT times, you would know something is going to happen even if you didn't know what.

That 13.33 thing is a nonsense estimate from 2009 that people accept as fact only when they don't even play the stage. As Kyokoro pointed out, its a huge window for when something might show up or disappear, both of which can screw you over.

Trust me, I definitely play with the knowledge of transformations. When I first started attending tournaments, I used this CP heavily and prayed for good things to happen (and often they did). I even learned all about it being more predictable at time went on. Its still just random dumb luck tho.
 

Arcansi

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player initiated random factors automatically at least a step above, because they don't happen at random TIMES. If pictochat actually ran on a strict timer, it would be fine because at certain EXACT times, you would know something is going to happen even if you didn't know what.
They don't happen at random times for one player. They essentially do for the other (who has even less of a chance to know it then with stages because stages happen atleast within a range.)

That 13.33 thing is a nonsense estimate from 2009 that people accept as fact only when they don't even play the stage. As Kyokoro pointed out, its a huge window for when something might show up or disappear, both of which can screw you over.
I'll ask T-Block on this, he probably knows. Btw that's not an argument, it's an opinion.

Trust me, I definitely play with the knowledge of transformations. When I first started attending tournaments, I used this CP heavily and prayed for good things to happen (and often they did). I even learned all about it being more predictable at time went on. Its still just random dumb luck tho.
1. Don't start an argument with Trust me, it means nothing.

2. All anecdotal evidence....
 

infiniteV115

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WOW lol

100% seriousness Picto should NOT be legal and is NOT legit. It's the reason I lost to GIMR and didn't make it out of pools at Pound 5. It's a stage all about luck. Might as well make Dream land and Jungle Japes legal if Picto is legal.
You're aware that Japes is 100% non-random, right?
 

da K.I.D.

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You can put your opponent INTO a potentially bad spot from any realistic spot on the stage. You can avoid very specific hazards in certain spots, but to be totally safe from anything that could happen is not feasible. I can avoid the flower by being to the far sides, but that opens me up to other ****. I can avoid the spikes by being in the middle but there's other **** that covers the middle. If it were "Hey the spikes ARE coming next, 3-2-1 GO" then yeah you could easily say you're a flerp derp for not positioning away from them or avoiding getting into that spot.
I thought It was common knowledge, that everyone knew that staying on the ground on the left hand half of the stage kept you safe from the immediate damage of all transformations.

there was even a picture that was made that had every single dangerous transformation super imposed on each other, that had a big blue bubble to show the safe zone that was consistent through all of them.


And it's not even like half of the scenarios involve skill or "I knew it was gonna happen". We can start on the left side, I hit you with something that should kill, and all of a sudden a wall saves you. Are you really gonna say "Well a pro player would know to DI that way since the wall might come up"? Or you should throw out tech inputs at certain hot spots just to be safe even if it means opening yourself up airdodging if nothing is there?
thats that boy scout logic.

Be prepared.

To answer the question, yes I would say that.

If the stage followed a pattern or gave more warning, sure. Knowing that the stage spawns something every x seconds doesn't help when it's instant or near instant, and not knowing what will spawn isn't helpful either.
apparently theres just a disconnect here since we seem to have different opinions on the definition of 'near-instant'
 

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Sorry, what? So if I have Link off-stage and I'm MK on the ledge, I don't have an advantageous position?
You'll be surprised.
It depends on transformations, heights and positions that can change from an instant to another.

You proably wouldn't be okay with that. I am.
Hre comes the personal opinion thingy.
 

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It is not personal opinion if they exist. But IS if you are okay or not with the advantages/disadvantages of positions being different than in pretty much every other stage.
I'm pretty sure that the same can be said about RC, but pointing to different elements.
 
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