The real reason Japan is better than America

[-LzR-]

Well...yeah, that would be fair. The "worse" player played to the level and won for it.

So a Kirby decides to use jab because he thinks it's a good option for that moment. After he hits the opponent with the jab, he does the other jab and before the infinite jab starts, walls appear all around them into a very very small area where neither player can move at all. The other player was now stuck in the jab as not even SDI could help thanks to the weird walls.
You call that "playing to the level"?

 

[DMG]

Doing something and getting rewarded for it on Pictochat... you can't attribute all of that to skill or "knowing". At the end of the day, EVEN if you say he's "playing" the stage, it's random. This isn't "Oh I got a grab on Delfino and the stage decided to go to the walkoff, GG". Getting a setup like that NOW THAT is playing the stage.

 

[-LzR-]

And in Delfino you can easily just follow the background and have 5 years to react to it when it starts landing. Delfino is legit.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As much as I love Pictochat discussions, we're getting offtopic.

 

[-LzR-]

So the topic is how Japan is better because they play on stages that require real skills instead of gimmicks. Except 1/3rd of their stagelist features one of the best gimmicks in the game which totally doesn't mean anything and the point stands.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, we're again at the point of "which ones are the skills we want to test?"?

imo, stages has not a direct impact on their metagame.
Sure, lack of interference allows you to learn better. That doesn't mean you can't use that knowledge on more complex situations.

Like, you first learn how to sum and rest. And then you can use it on any kind of complex equation (silly example due to tireness).

 

[Attila_]

really, really, like this thread.

agree with a very large amount of what was said.

as one of the best players in my country, whenever i've faced an opponent i had trouble with, my first thought was always 'what stage would i gain an advantage from?'

i had never considered this mentality a negative; i wanted to win. but when it comes to simply being better than your opponent, i was going about it the wrong way.

a simple stage list takes the advantage out of counterpicking, forcing the winner to be better than his/her opponent (unless they character counter).

and imo, this is a much healthier competitive environment. stop relying on cheap tactics to win, and you're forced to get better.

props to seibrik for thinking of this.

 

[Life]

^"cheap"

There's that word again. :/

The best player is the one the winning screen says is better. Doesn't matter how they got there.

 

[The Ben]

But being better at picking stages and playing to their quirks is a thing. If you can do that better than your opponent than in some respects you're the better player.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So people who want player vs stage stages banned are noobs? Tell that to Japan.

 

[Kuro~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2BAC65C178FB3D90

Yup.

Picto's legit.

 

[Xaltis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2BAC65C178FB3D90

Yup.

Picto's legit.

WOW lol

100% seriousness Picto should NOT be legal and is NOT legit. It's the reason I lost to GIMR and didn't make it out of pools at Pound 5. It's a stage all about luck. Might as well make Dream land and Jungle Japes legal if Picto is legal.

 

[da K.I.D.]

WOW lol

100% seriousness Picto should NOT be legal and is NOT legit. It's the reason I lost to GIMR and didn't make it out of pools at Pound 5. It's a stage all about luck. Might as well make Dream land and Jungle Japes legal if Picto is legal.

I have no problem with this other than the fact that dreamland is not a playable stage in this game

 

[Kuro~]

Dreamland in brawl would of been amazing...

 

[Life]

Japes >>> Picto anyway.

 

[Tesh]

really, really, like this thread.

agree with a very large amount of what was said.

as one of the best players in my country, whenever i've faced an opponent i had trouble with, my first thought was always 'what stage would i gain an advantage from?'

i had never considered this mentality a negative; i wanted to win. but when it comes to simply being better than your opponent, i was going about it the wrong way.

a simple stage list takes the advantage out of counterpicking, forcing the winner to be better than his/her opponent (unless they character counter).

and imo, this is a much healthier competitive environment. stop relying on cheap tactics to win, and you're forced to get better.

props to seibrik for thinking of this.

Seibrik has a theory. No one really knows why Japan did a little better than us at a stacked international tournament where anyone could have won.

Nairo beat Nietono and came within an inch of beating Otori.

Kakera and Otori beat M2K and Anti, but this shouldn't be surprising. While Otori does look better than all of our MKs, Kakera didn't seem to be. Teams is about synergy and they are both top MKs and BROTHERS. How often do you think M2K and Anti wind up at the same tournaments and practice? How often do you think Dojo and Ally wind up at the same tournaments and practice. Now imagine our top MKs live together and/or practice together all the time. Synergy is important, its how a Snake+Diddy team managed to make top 3.

Despite other viable explanations for our close defeat, Seibrik has decided that the REAL reason is that Japan has a special elixir of talent, magical skill transforming ruleset.

I could take random facts about American players better than I am and assume thats why they are good. Its a common belief that being good at Melee helped M2K become so amazing at Brawl so why don't we all just go play Melee to train for Brawl?

 

[GimR]

WOW lol

100% seriousness Picto should NOT be legal and is NOT legit. It's the reason I lost to GIMR and didn't make it out of pools at Pound 5. It's a stage all about luck. Might as well make Dream land and Jungle Japes legal if Picto is legal.

you lost to me cause you chose picto, lol. mwuhahahahahhahahaha

 

[ぱみゅ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CnEd8Rxepw&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2BAC65C178FB3D90

Yup.

Picto's legit.

That video is stupid, the Dedede dropped the chaingrab a couple times.

Spoiler

also, 3-stock

Sure, all of those events might happen separately.
Question is how often, or what has to happen for them to even occur.



However, this is not the place to discuss Pictochat.

 

[Flayl]

The fun part of the vid is if he didn't drop the grabs it would have been a 0-death

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except it's not unless he has an inhuman timing/prediction level that lets him to know when to dash grab and when to stand regrab.

 

[Xaltis]

you lost to me cause you chose picto, lol. mwuhahahahahhahahaha

You are correct sir. Huge mistake on my part lol I've sworn to never pick that stage again ever. XD

 

[Ghostbone]

I played on Pictochat once in tournament.
My opponent and I both instantly wanted it banned.

 

[Life]

I almost got my first tournament win on Picto, but I SD'd at last stock 90% with the opponent at kill percents. Randomness nothing, I play Sonic so it was all iSDR.

Fine with keeping it banned, its randomness does have a ton of influence on the match with little warning even though it's usually subtle. Would not exactly kill anyone if it were legal, but it's also a go-to CP for Sonic, so maybe that's just my bias kicking in.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I played on Pictochat once in tournament.
My opponent and I both instantly wanted it banned.

Just bolding/undering the important part.

 

[The Ben]

Yeah but personal dislike of a level isn't a reason to ban it.

 

[Ghostbone]

Just bolding/undering the important part.

Also the in tournament part, I know plenty about the stage and played it before many times.

 

[Akaku94]

Picto is one of those stages that has zero chance of being legalized anytime soon, but may have a larger chance in time. But if we can't even get people to legalize Japes while keeping RC and Brinstar legal, what hope do we have of Picto?

 

[ぱみゅ]

At this point, I doubt any stage would be added.
If they actually start increasing the legal stage rooster, there will be hope.
Until then, they all will be hatin'

 

[Grim Tuesday]

people still johning for m2k and other stuff? No wonder USA sucks.

Assuming this was directed at me, saying that M2K "played the match-up wrong" is not johnning at all...

 

[-LzR-]

Pictochat has been a really popular and loved stage here in Finland. It was really commonly counterpicked and players practiced how to abuse stuff there and where are certain safespots and so on. Not everyone liked that it was banned, but they agreed it was the right decision. The stage isn't like Wario Ware crazy, but it has potential to do such thing, even though it's not nearly every match.

 

[Arcansi]

So a Kirby decides to use jab because he thinks it's a good option for that moment. After he hits the opponent with the jab, he does the other jab and before the infinite jab starts, walls appear all around them into a very very small area where neither player can move at all. The other player was now stuck in the jab as not even SDI could help thanks to the weird walls.
You call that "playing to the level"?

1. The walls don't come up NEARLY fast enough for that to happen, and you should know that. They get drawn in, they don't just phase in in 1 frame.

Pictochat has been a really popular and loved stage here in Finland. It was really commonly counterpicked and players practiced how to abuse stuff there and where are certain safespots and so on. Not everyone liked that it was banned, but they agreed it was the right decision. The stage isn't like Wario Ware crazy, but it has potential to do such thing, even though it's not nearly every match.

And guess what legal stage can do the same thing? In fact, it's neutral.

YI Brawl.

 

[DMG]

YI Brawl also doesn't affect gameplay onstage, and it only has 2 options. Appear on left side, appear on right side. Holy **** wall is in my face or god damnit why is the Whale here, or thank you jesus I get free damage from Uthrow since X spawned

 

[Arcansi]

Affecting gameplay onstage is somehow worse then affecting gameplay offstage why?

Wall doesn't phase in like you seem to be saying, it's not that bad.

How does Whale transformation hurt anyone on spawning?

And uthrow is an obvious guess for a transformation (and if it's the time for picto to transform...) because what character actually uses it anyway?

 

[theunabletable]

Yeah but personal dislike of a level isn't a reason to ban it.

Yeah it is. It's very much a factor in whether something should be banned. And I challenge anyone on this forum to give a convincing argument against this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317460

Affecting gameplay onstage is somehow worse then affecting gameplay offstage why?

because more of the game takes place on stage than off stage

How does Whale transformation hurt anyone on spawning?

what if a tl threw a bomb right when that appeared and blew up from it?

and you're strawmanning him, attacking a point he never made.

anyways you should debate me in the thread I listed above, I'll show you why Pictochat should sometimes be banned.

 

[Arcansi]

Yeah it is. It's very much a factor in whether something should be banned. And I challenge anyone on this forum to give a convincing argument against this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317460

1. It's not. (although there are really dumb things you could bring up that would make it so, but on to...) 2. I assume you want the argument in that thread so sure.

because more of the game takes place on stage than off stage

However, the gameplay that takes place off stage is a lot more important. If character X gets 25% free damage on Olimar because of upthrow, that will change things. However, character X missing a gimp on olimar because of platform ghost? That will change a LOT more.

what if a tl threw a bomb right when that appeared and blew up from it?

Okay, this is a possibility. But it falls under the acceptable amount of randomness due to things like peach pulling bombs being under it also, and this is less chance of happening and affects the game much less.

and you're strawmanning him, attacking a point he never made.

While this is true, what I'm actually doing is extrapolating the only point he can make from a point that he can't.

Arguing for a transformation being 'in your face' when it's already spawned is bad, because that's just you being stupid if you think that.

anyways you should debate me in the thread I listed above, I'll show you why Pictochat should sometimes be banned.

I'd love too, but it seems like it would be insanely off topic to do so. Theres no inclination that that type of talk is what your looking for in the thread.

 

[DMG]

Unless it SIGNIFICANTLY affects gameplay offstage, no it's not comparable to **** spawning all over the stage. A mini platform that MIGHT come to your side is not as bad.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Obviously you don't play Samus and your Charge Beam hasn't been randomly stopped by a gigantic hurtbox Shyguy.

 

[Arcansi]

^ Or Lucario

Or DDD (Gordo)

Or Peach

ETC.

EDIT: Also, A mini platform that will usually save you from death if it interferes at all is HORRIBLE.

And it falls under acceptable randomness. Along with peach pulling bombs or beam swords, or G&W getting a #9

And Picto aint worse then that yo.

 

[Tesh]

Pictochat bombards you with random events every 15ish seconds all over the stage. Its alot easier to consider that the platform might randomly move and cause platform cancels, shy guys might **** block your projectiles or extend some hitboxes/stale some moves on stage (thats TWO things for the entire on stage gameplay) and consider that while recovering or edgeguarding, ONE thing might happen at a random time.

Pictochat has dozens of random things at random times in random *** spots that can **** you up in a number of ways wherever you are.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Johnny Salts the platform ghost is nothing compared to spikes, missiles, and camp boxes showing up.