~The Olimar Matchup Thread~Review: R.O.B. or someone~

[Excellence]

We need to redo all the match-ups pre-second tier list, starting with our worst and most difficult match-ups and moving on to the advantageous ones and last Ganondorf of Jigglypuff.

 

[kirbywizard]

We need to redo all the match-ups pre-second tier list, starting with our worst and most difficult match-ups and moving on to the advantageous ones and last Ganondorf of Jigglypuff.

the jigglypuff boards already discussed olimar, and I agree with them Olimar has the advantage look at the thread over there

 

[sasook]

Link has some good projectiles. He’ll be trying to use his boomerang and his arrows to camp from afar until he realizes that he is the one who has to approach.

What I find wrong about this is that Link's spam game revolves around his bombs, with his boomerang and arrows as side tools. In fact, arrows are almost never used. The boomerang is used mostly for spacing, as it doesn't do much damage - his main damaging projectile is his bomb.

Furthermore, bomb camping is pretty safe in most cases, though I'm not sure about this particular matchup. For clarification, can the pikmin clank with the bombs?

Just before link lands, he can fire an arrow that won't have it's normal lag frames. It speeds up the animation to his Hero’s bow, similar to Falco's lagless landing lasers. They might use it try and gimp your recover, so if he's not edgeguarding with the boomerang or bombs, expect some arrows.

The thing is, what is being talked about here is arrow canceling. With arrow canceling, the arrows don't go very far offstage (they just disappear after a certain distance). What's more, if Olimar is offstage, there's no need to arrow cancel at all - shooting a normal arrow works just fine for arrow gimps.

Even so, that part doesn't bother me as much as the latter part. Link doesn't edgeguard with boomerangs and bombs in the traditional sense - they can help the opponent recover, more often than not.

This is taken from my guide:

-Edgeguarding:

• Neutral Air Gimps: This works on the majority of the cast. Neutral air gimps are hitting a recovering opponent with the kick after the first few frames. It provides a very light touch that cancels that character's DI. Naturally, this doesn't work on everyone, but it works pretty well. It's Link's best edgeguarding tool. To do it, simply run off the stage and press A right before you hit the opponent. Then the second jump and upb to recover.
  
  
• Forward Airs: At first, this would seem ideal for edgeguarding. In fact, it's not. Nope, this move is highly not recommended for edgeguarding. Since it takes forever to finish, Link can fall quite far and move too far away to recover himself. Also, if the second swipe hits, the opponent can DI it up and it helps them recover. Don't use forward airs for edgeguarding.
  
  
• Slow-fall Down Airs: Jumping off stage and doing a down air without fast falling is a great edgeguard. At first it seems impractical, because the down air knocks them straight up. But the down air has such a great knockback that it will actually KO them vertically, and this is a great edgeguarding tool. Just be sure not to use that second jump before doing the down air, and be sure not to fast fall.
  
  
• The Boomerang: As mentioned above, gale guarding with the boomerang can be done for edgeguarding. For how it works, see that section. The boomerang, other than that, isn't great for edgeguarding. Don't ever stand on the ledge and throw a boomerang at the opponent - oftentimes it doesn't do much, and they can ride the boomerang back. However, the boomerang has a set knockback.
  
  Knowing this, a boomerang gimp is possible. If Link jumps off and gets close enough to the opponent for that "point blank" range that causes the falling down knockback, he can actually get a gimp that way. For instance, a Marth is trying to come back. Link jumps off and just before Marth does a forward air, Link throws a boomerang, and Marth falls as if he were on stage and is about to get jab locked. Link recovers and edgehogs, and Marth gets KO'd.
  
  
• Bombs: Similarly to how Snake players use up smashes at the ledge, bombs can be thrown upwards to create a semi-wall that pressures the opponent. What's more, Link's upthrow bombslide works like Snake's up smash in that if it is done at the ledge, the bomb coming back down actually falls past the ledge. Follow this up with a down air and it's a KO.
  
  Bombs are also useful at times for stage spiking. Z dropping a bomb just off the ledge can cause the recovering opponent to smack into the stage. This works very well for characters with tether recoveries. Grabbing the edge and throwing a bomb up, then edgehogging works extremely well, almost as if a double edgeguard, for all characters. The bomb coming back down won't hit Link, even if he's on the ledge, and can hit the opponent. If they dodge, they get Z Air edgeguarded.
  
  Z dropping bombs -> jump -> down air works extremely well too. It's a continuation of the slow fall down air edgeguarding, except if they get hit with the bomb, the chances they will hit the down air increases significantly. Bombs are pretty useful if used correctly.
  
  That being said, never just stand and throw bombs. The opponents can DI the hits and it actually helps them recover.
  
  
• Back Air Stage spikes: Not as hard as it sounds, back air stage spikes are relatively simple to do. If the opponent is recovering from the below rather than at an angle, sometimes a back air stage spike does the trick.
  
  To perform a stage spike like this, short hop off the ledge and do a fast fall back air. Yes, fast fall, so the second kick hits. Just before you reach the magnifying glass on the bottom, jump and do an upb. Link will make it back, guaranteed. Sometimes if the opponent is already too close to the ledge, there's no need to fast fall. Just run off and back air. It's a good edgeguard tactic and surprisingly reliable.
  
  Here's a vid, at 2:33: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bT4vm2_GSQ
  
  
• Down tilt spikes: This is not Melee. These are not reliable. Don't attempt these, ever. They don't help. Until someone finds out how to do these consistently, don't even try these.
  
  
• Z Air Edgeguarding (Zedge): As mentioned before, these are great to use. Combining these with ledgehopped back airs are just too good. Ledgehopped back airs are simple to do, but don't use them to get on stage. Instead, drop, jump and back air the opponent away from the stage, then Z Air edgeguard. Another free KO.
  
  
• Ledgehopped ZACs: Rather than using these to get back on stage, they can be used to down air the opponent. It's simple - drop the bomb on the ledge, then down air ZAC it, then use the upb to recover with the explosion.
  
  Here's a video at 0:45 (the same as above) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPdG9bGq7iE
  
  
• Arrow Gimps: Arrows are great for gimping opponents with just average recoveries, like Marth. Hitting an opponent with an arrow after they've used their second jump nearly always results in an arrow gimp, unless that said character has an amazing recovery like R.O.B. or Meta Knight.
  
  The hardest part about arrow gimping is actually aiming. Aiming arrows to be consistently hitting an opponent's feet is good practice for this, test out various distances. Once this is mastered, practice arrow gimping in matches. It's harder to hit moving targets though. This works well as another form of edgeguarding.

This is posted above, but here's a video on how to edgeguard with Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqM1fZ8tevQ

-Jab: Link has a slow 7 frame jab (as opposed to Olimar's 4 frame jab) with great range and lock properties.If you don't tech your falls, he may jab lock you to the edge and finish with any attack of his choosing. His jab is his life saver in most matchups. It's not uncommon to see this as his most used attack.

I just want to add on here, jab canceling should be mentioned. Something that usually works a lot on Olimar is a FF nair -> jab canceled dsmash/grab/fsmash.

Link has a tether grab-it's quick for how much range it has, but the afterlag is awful. For this reason, Link players don't grab very often. Try shielding more in the matchup, but don't depend on it. If they think you'll shield an attack, they'll grab instead.

Yeah, Link is difficult to grab with - most of the time, he'll grab from jab canceling.

Link doesn't have very many safe options for defending his backside.

In terms of effectiveness, B-air is Link's best aerial. It has no landing lag, and FF bairs work pretty well on almost everybody.

Reverse bombsliding as well as jump-canceled reverse bombthrows work well here too.

Add this with his very short duration spotdodge and below average OoS options and you've got yourself a character that needs rolling and spotdodging more than most.

This part I disagree with. Link has a sucky roll, and a quick spot dodge. Link players rarely roll because it can be punished so easily, and spot dodging is very situational; it's not usually performed. Most Link players just shield. I realize this is a problem with Olimar's amazing grab game, but a lot of Link players move around using FF'd SHs. They literally move by jumping around. So a lot of attacks actually miss because Link spaces so that he's safe, which is his specialty anyway. Link's all about spacing, generally speaking.

His OoS options aren't spectacular though, I agree there.


That's pretty much it, really. The rest was pretty accurate, IMO, except the 70:30 ratio. I was thinking more along the lines of 60:40 to 65:35 - but in all honesty, I think the ratio should be determined by asking Fino and ArkiveZero, since they play each other all the time.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

60:40 olimar sounds good. I'm sure the sonic boards would agree with that as well.

 

[DanGR]

Sasook, I'll address your post tomorrow if I can get around to it. I agree for the most part.

 

[Llumys]

I would actually put 65:35.

Olimar pretty much neutralizes all of Sonic's strong points.

 

[BBoyindo]

The Marth boards are rediscussing the match-up

The Marth boards are rediscussing the match-up

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197677
Please go there and share your knowledge!
Thanks in advance.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Sonic is bad.

 

[Excellence]

Why are our match-up discussion so pointless? Sonic?! Really? Who has trouble with Sonic? He's got to be the easiest match-up, save for Ganondorf, that we have. Why don't we work on match-ups that actually require some thinking. Let's move on to Meta Knight or Luigi.

 

[gantrain05]

Why are our match-up discussion so pointless? Sonic?! Really? Who has trouble with Sonic? He's got to be the easiest match-up, save for Ganondorf, that we have. Why don't we work on match-ups that actually require some thinking. Let's move on to Meta Knight or Luigi.

nah, i'd rather fight sonic than ganondorf lol, if you ever get predictable with your pivot grabs ganon is gonna SH Dair right over your grab and your gonna eat a Dair > Uair combo, and being above ganon is not very fun.

 

[Excellence]

nah, i'd rather fight sonic than ganondorf lol, if you ever get predictable with your pivot grabs ganon is gonna SH Dair right over your grab and your gonna eat a Dair > Uair combo, and being above ganon is not very fun.

What?! Ganondorf has no approach on Olimar at all, ever. You can Nair into his Dair and start combing the hell out of him. If he ever starts to pressure you with that, Nair, Nair, Nair, Nair. On top of that you can keep Pikmin on him and KO him after he tries to remove them.

 

[DanGR]

Someone start talking about a character that does well versus Olimar.

 

[Excellence]

Can we move on to Luigi, please? How do you guys deal with him? I try to be defensive, then switch to heavy offensive when I can but it's really difficult. I definitely perfer Pivot Grabs over standing grabs in this match-up and NEVER throw pikmin.

 

[Kinzer]

I would actually put 65:35.

Olimar pretty much neutralizes all of Sonic's strong points.

Way to provide evidence to back-up your statements.

Sonic is bad.

At least he had more than 2 games.

Who has trouble with Sonic? He's got to be the easiest match-up, save for Ganondorf, that we have. Why don't we work on match-ups that actually require some thinking.

The poor losers that follow your board and look up to your information. Wrong. Go auto-pilot then, watch what happens with a competant Sonic.

nah, i'd rather fight sonic than ganondorf lol, if you ever get predictable with your pivot grabs ganon is gonna SH Dair right over your grab and your gonna eat a Dair > Uair combo, and being above ganon is not very fun.

At least he/she tries.

Thank you for helping me see why the others didn't bother with this crap, your guide can be as incorrect and false for all I really care, when people type "morons" I'll think of this place.

 

[Tenki]

Sorry, Kinzer's in a bad mood, lol

There was more discussion back when some of you guys actually visited the inter-board matchup discussion.

I think most of the points remain the same =/

Like, Sonic can grab you if you miss a grab, etc.

 

[Chis]

Kinzer, you're in a website full of children and young adults that act like childrem, so don't act so surprised to see a lot of stupidity here.

 

[aeghrur]

Nah, they're basically right, it's 60:40.
Leave it be you guys. Who cares for the reasons?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Lulz, nothing was discussed, just a number.
You are right, 60:40, the end.
Now you know how to win.

 

[asob4]

kinzer, i saw your "competent" sonic get 3 stocked by a person only pressing b with MK
i trust nothing you say.

but it is 60-40, i've played a few good sonics and it can be difficult
but it's only been like one game and i always won
65-35 at worst imo
fair is gay

 

[DanGR]

About Sonic. I'm basing the 60-40 off of what the majority of the better Olimars have said it was. I've already stated that I don't know the matchup very well. The few matches I have played against Sonic were blowouts- probably indicating that they didn't know the matchup well. I dunno.

What I find wrong about this is that Link's spam game revolves around his bombs, with his boomerang and arrows as side tools. In fact, arrows are almost never used. The boomerang is used mostly for spacing, as it doesn't do much damage - his main damaging projectile is his bomb.

I don't disagree here. I guess I could be more specific with an explanation.

Furthermore, bomb camping is pretty safe in most cases, though I'm not sure about this particular matchup. For clarification, can the pikmin clank with the bombs?

In this matchup, Olimar outcamps Link. The pikmin come out too quickly for there to be time for Link to be camping for more than about 5 seconds. When Link has a bomb in hand and a pikmin on him, the bomb will blow up on Link if he throws it. If it meets a pikmin midair, it'll explode.

Reverse bombsliding as well as jump-canceled reverse bombthrows work well here too.

say what?

That's pretty much it, really. The rest was pretty accurate, IMO, except the 70:30 ratio. I was thinking more along the lines of 60:40 to 65:35 - but in all honesty, I think the ratio should be determined by asking Fino and ArkiveZero, since they play each other all the time.

IMO it's 70-30 Olimar. If a lot of the Olimar players disagree, then I can change it, but as of now, that's the number we decided on. Also, the last time I saw the videos of Fino and ArkiveZero, Fino never edgehogged when she had the chance, didn't play her defensive game correctly, and was too impatient the entire match. That was a while back though.

I didn't quote the rest of what you posted because I agreed with it.

 

[Fino]

IMO it's 70-30 Olimar. If a lot of the Olimar players disagree, then I can change it, but as of now, that's the number we decided on. Also, the last time I saw the videos of Fino and ArkiveZero, Fino never edgehogged when she had the chance, didn't play her defensive game correctly, and was too impatient the entire match. That was a while back though.

Until recently I've had a very hard time playing my full against my crew... but maybe I can get some vids up later ^^;

Anyways for sonic... I vote 60:35 olimar

* 5% goes to sakurai, because playing sonic is super gay


~Fino

 

[BlackWaltzX]

70-30 or so.

All you need to do is fsmash spam and if they take to the air, the only attack that doesn't clash with pikmin (Clash, meaning both bodies get hurt, meaning sonic and a pikmin which is expendable) would be bair.
If you step forward and upsmash it goes through SHFF bair.

If you have good reflexes and can read at an average level you can nearly three stock expectedly while trying.

I'll base this on playing Malcolm, Blue, Kai, Tenki, Shado, and a number of other sonics on autopilot.
While I'm at it, this goes for a few other characters also.

EDIT) Decided not to say what to do against those characters unless they come up for certain reasons.

 

[Kinzer]

kinzer, i saw your "competent" sonic get 3 stocked by a person only pressing b with MK
i trust nothing you say.

3-Stocked?!

What in God's name are you trying to spread about? The only times I've been three-stocked was by Tudor (Samus) and JWNCED (Mario)!

The thing that comes close to that description was MikeHAZE 2-stocking me on NORFAIR. That was a terrible CP on my part but no johns.

You better have back-up to those claims, because there ain't no way I've been 3-stocked in a tourney.

@#$%ing why the Hell am I still arguing with you people? It's obvious this place is a lost cause.

Edit: Now that I think about it, there might've been this MK player I fought at the tournament Saturday, but lol he actually played Meta Knight and not just the B-button. I don't even recall him not keeping all 3-stocks on both matches.

 

[asob4]

i trust blackwaltz, he knows his ****

 

[Camalange]

Regardless of Kinzer's "skill", that doesn't get taken into character match ups...that's the player, not the character.

However, all you people are really doing are spitting out numbers, ggs guys.

I'm not going to argue though, 60:40/65:35 are legitimate claims. I've played AndyG and so has Blue (Blue did better than I did, lol. I hardly know the match up) and it's rough.

The only thing Sonic really has over Olimar is that ASC can kinda hit Oli's "blindspot" where he can't protect himself during a grab/smash, and Sonic has a great gimping game (granted that you can actually gimp good Oli's...)

So if you actually want to DISCUSS the matchup, go for it. If you just want numbers to flash off, put 60:40/65/35 followed by the description...

How to beat Sonic:
He's pretty bad, don't need to worry about this one. He's fast and doesn't afraid of anything, so that may cause some problems, but overall, Olimar pretty much just beats everything.

65:35 - Oli's favor

Oh, and leave the guy alone. If you have something to say to eachother, leave it to PMs. Not for the public eye.

 

[Xyro77]

when will u guys discuss some samus?

come to our boards and we will help you!

YARGH!!!!!!!!

 

[gantrain05]

you know, i don't know if its just me, but the way you are gonna beat my olimar is to just stay in my face all day long, and it seems to me sonic would be able to do a **** good job of that, i bet i'd get ***** by a good sonic main lol.

 

[Cook]

when will u guys discuss some samus?

come to our boards and we will help you!

YARGH!!!!!!!!

I haven't played any good Samus before. Next time I play Joker I'll have him use his Samus so I can see how the matchup feels. JLO, have you gone Olimar against Joker's Samus?

 

[gantrain05]

I haven't played any good Samus before. Next time I play Joker I'll have him use his Samus so I can see how the matchup feels. JLO, have you gone Olimar against Joker's Samus?

yeah, its really not hard at all lol, spamus doesn't have many answers to olimar, odd enough tho, jokers samus holds her own against my peach and DK.

 

[Excellence]

Can we move on to Luigi? Sonic is not a problem. He can't approach you without getting hurt in the process.

 

[asob4]

i agree, i think luigi may be our waorst, and break that 60-40 trend we have going :[[

 

[Ken Neth]

Yeah, you guys have been on sonic for over a month now. Anything that gets brought up now has already been mentioned a long time ago.

 

[asob4]

come to so cal you utah noobs!!! D: ha

 

[Ken Neth]

How about socal goes to SK92's next monthly?? It's on march 21st. Make it happen.

 

[asob4]

maybe.....
i don't think anything else is happening that day down here so it's a good possibility
only way we won't go is if claire pulls SCSA out her ***

 

[Ken Neth]

K, I'm expecting to see you there. Don't disappoint me

 

[Virgilijus]

Keep the personal chatter to PM's or AIM. Thanks.

 

[hippiedude92]

I could have swore you guys did luigi matchup before unless it was different or outdated. The last thing I remember is pivot grab ***** luigi making it like 70-30 LMAO. I also remember some oli mainers say that one of oli's worst matchups is luigi too as well. As for luigi mainers, mostly most haven't played a oli decently or at all. Though I hate the matchup sooooo much because it's just annoying to get grabbed. I find it like 50-50 imo lol.

 

[DanGR]

Looks like Luigi is our next character. You guys don't have to wait on me to change the OP to begin discussing a new character. Just go ahead and start posting your thoughts and whatnot.

edit: wow, that was quick.

Pivotgrabs help tremendously in the matchup, but it's not our advantage, lol. I think other than MK and Marth, Luigi is Olimar's hardest matchup. Probably in the area of 60-40 to 65-35-ish.

 

[hippiedude92]

IIRC I think it was Excellence? who said pivot grabs is like the shutdown of luigi's SH game but that was abit back then I believe. Not sure tho. Personally I take it as a 55-45 maybe luigi's or 50-50. I even have a hard time with average olimar's. Olimar has the ground game while luigi rules the air. Since luigi is approaching,
SHdairs are good approach since he can't be grabbed out of and can easily retreat it to a fireball.