The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[Dark Sonic]

^^I was part of that discussion lol.

MK's dair is pretty rediculous when spaced correctly too.

 

[Red Exodus]

The majority of MK mainers are against the ban. Bottom-tier mainers are long gone and all that's left is the flood of MK and Snake mainers cause mastering suckish characters was too hard for them.

See how moot your logic is? By the way, I speak for myself when I say that I'm pro-Melee and pro-Brawl. We shouldn't have this kind of judgement.

you do realise that theres like 7 sonic mainers that actively participate in this discussion right?

but than again those of us that still play sonic now will never ever quit.

and dont use join date as a means to invalidate someone, its just another form of racism/ageism/classism

im not 08 and i want the ban. how does that work?

Some 06er was talking about how punishable MK's dtilt is you really shouldn't look down on someones opinion just because you see 2008 next to there name.

*Sigh*
For starters, I have been using this site since 07. But I had no internet at my house, so I was reduced to using it in school (we be po black folk) I was pretty good in melee, I love melee. So just because of my join date. I have been stereotyped, and called a scrub. Ouch, but I have been playing melee competitively since 2006. But its all about my join date lol.

It's not JUST about join date, it's the experience and knowledge that comes with it. That's why you don't see many SBR's that joined recently, they've all been playing for years.

When you get hired for a position for the first time do you just go around and treat everyone in the business the same? Of course not. There's a hierarchy, so you can't just come in with your limited knowledge and tell people what to do because for all your coworkers know you're just the new guy, you watch and learn and then when you get enough knowledge your opinion becomes more valid.

This is the same deal. I can't tell you how many times someone that just made a SWF account would waltz into a thread about the tier list [or something along that line] and just talk utter nonsense because they can beat their friends with character X.

I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, so I'm just wasting my time, when people say the Brawl boards are the worst one they really know what they're talking about.

 

[Kookie]

You might have missed when a few pages ago a startling majority of the people here realized how evil MK's D-tilt is.

they were like

"OH! SO MK IS EVEN MORE DANGEROUS THAN WE THOUGHT!"

I remember that.

It was . . . funny.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah, join date doesn't reflect intelligence, it reflects experience. Which is what is needed for a large decision like this. All of you 08's opinion doesn't matter very much.

 

[darkserenade]

It's not JUST about join date, it's the experience and knowledge that comes with it. That's why you don't see many SBR's that joined recently, they've all been playing for years.

So when you make an account, you're officialy playing Smash?

When you get hired for a position for the first time do you just go around and treat everyone in the business the same? Of course not. There's a hierarchy, so you can't just come in with your limited knowledge and tell people what to do because for all your coworkers know you're just the new guy, you watch and learn and then when you get enough knowledge your opinion becomes more valid.

Yes, because SWF is the only place where you can learn about competitive. PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed. What if that guy already has an extensive knowledge of the job? WHAT IF he got drafted from another place?

This is the same deal. I can't tell you how many times someone that just made a SWF account would waltz into a thread about the tier list [or something along that line] and just talk utter nonsense because they can beat their friends with character X.

Stop treating every player as a whole.

I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, so I'm just wasting my time, when people say the when people say the Brawl boards are the worst one they really know what they're talking about.

Last time I checked, you post in the Brawl boards too. Please, you're not excused from everybody trying to make this an intelligent place to talk, Mr. Elitist.

 

[Kookie]

The Internet is such a happy, friendly place. Where even the most trivial problems, like a character in a video game, are discussed so peacefully and without conflict.

 

[tocador]

you know, arguing(sorry if i typed it wrong)as cool as it seems wont decide if MK is or isnt going to be banned

i know that discussing is cool and stuff, and to show your superior is DA BEST but this REALLY aint going to solve the MK issue, and if the people discussing both have an DEFINITE idea the best you can do is discuss for 893120982-3129383-211983 posts and if ONE OF THE people discussing is really good at speaches he maybe convince the other that people from 08s aint or is newb

the point is, this is MK tread not "When i join im a newb yes?" tread and discussing bout it wont help MK being banned or not

 

[Zylar]

While it is true that 08's TEND to have less experience than a 07'er doesn't invalidate their opinion or their knowledge.

I didn't even know about the 08 classism thing going on. No one has directed that towards me as of yet.

This is what people aught to do : Base the value of a post, NOT on the join date, but by how calmly (Subjective because this is the internet) and how intelligently someone presents their case. A sterotypical 08'er will waltz into a tier list thread and assume their experience validates their opinion, so you see them spamming, talk utter nonsense, etc.
However, what is to say that an 08'er even with limited experience is able to support their arguments?
BTW in threads that require experience, it is harder for the 08'ers to support their opinions becuase of their lack of experience. This still does not completely invalidate all 08'ers opinions.
Thus when in comes to the issue of MK's banishment, yes, those who have not participated in the competative scene very long will have a weaker opinion because of lack of experience.

Going back to the subject, (Sorta) you don't need much experience to see what MK's doing to the competative scene. There was once a time where I knew 13 competative players personally, and 10 quit brawl for lack of desire to go to tourneys because of facing tidal waves of MK's. (No they didn't go back to Meele either.)

Will you dismiss my opinion because of my join date? That is up to you. However, consider looking at the person for who they are based on how they write, instead of what they are based on when they've joined.

Edit: Oops sry tocador LOL

 

[Daimonster]

Red Exodus: You can always read what people have to say. However, you are not forced to believe them. Let people add their own input no matter what their community looks like. It's good to hear all sides of the matter.

Some players, as I have, come from another fighting game and still love the fighting genre. Treating them as second rate fighters based on a forum join date is silly. If what they say holds no merit, then berate that. Attacking a join date is rediculous.

 

[Kookie]

Don't always judge a book by its cover. ;D

 

[Gindler]

One of the main reason I'm not ready to ban Meta Knight just yet is personal, I admit.

I'm a dedicated Yoshi main. And although Meta Knight is still in good position against him, Yoshi is the one character that might give Meta Knight a bead of sweat.

One of the main reasons I've been pushing for improvements in Yoshi's standing on the tier list is because he's the only character (except maybe DK, though that doesn't appear to be the case now) that holds a neutral match-up against Meta Knight, due in large part to his CG to spike/up smash. And now, in addition to the CG and grab-release attacks on Meta Knight, Yoshi also has a couple of contextual INFINITE CGs on him, making counter-picking a very real possibility in the near future. Remove this, and a small but noteworthy argument for Yoshi's improvement on the tier list becomes irrelevant.

On a more practical note, it also severely reduces the possibility of finding similar exploits for other characters against him. Don't get me wrong, I can't say that I'm totally against banning Meta Knight, only because he IS that dangerous, but I think a temporary and/or soft ban would be more appropriate at this point in time.

Exactly what I was thinking, except the soft bannning part
Yoshi just wouldn't get any recognition at all if he does well against a banned character rather than the best legal character.
Heck even scrubby yoshi's like me give the best of the little guy some trouble.

Also I'd definetly miss the sounds that he makes (mk that is)

 

[Red Exodus]

So when you make an account, you're officialy playing Smash?

You become part of the community. I don't see how playing Smash means you know a lot about the community. What good what your opinion be if you only played FFA with bomb-ombs high?

This site is pretty much the best site for information and discussion about competitive smash. Sure you can lurk and learn a lot

Yes, because SWF is the only place where you can learn about competitive. PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed. What if that guy already has an extensive knowledge of the job? WHAT IF he got drafted from another place?

Good for you if you learned some place else, but how many people do that? The community is so small the odds are most people didn't learn from their friends, there are always exceptions to the rule but they're just that, exceptions.

You also missed the part where I said "When you get hired for a position for the first time". Meaning no previous experience, meaning he's a rookie.

Stop treating every player as a whole.

Last time I checked, you post in the Brawl boards too. Please, you're not excused from everybody trying to make this an intelligent place to talk, Mr. Elitist.

I'm posting here to give it a second chance but it's worse than it was before. A lot of the people that used to post intelligent discussion and arguments left because the Brawl boards kept getting worse with new people with no understanding of how the community works.

 

[Zylar]

Going back off topic:

Should I respect daimonster's opinion becasue I see that he has few posts, and that he joined at 06?
No
Should I respect daimonster's opinion because I see that he posts intelligently.
Yes.

Just an example.

Back on topic:

I didn't know Yoshi had a neutral matchup! Makes me hopeful for MK to be saved (However people have already been lost...)

 

[Kookie]

Oddly enough, I've always played by tournament rules and stuff, and used the more advanced techniques from this site, even though I just registered on SWF this year. In fact, I didn't even know this place existed until a month or two before Brawl was out.

It just seems like it's more of a superficial thing to me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@ exodus actually the brawl boards got worse because of ppl like you generalising other human beings based on an arbitrary statistic

and there are people that go to tourney and learn things from the really good people tat they play with with out having anything to do with this board. it isnt mandatory for every player to have to register here to be recognised as a competitive smasher

also, i think zylar destroyed any kind of idea of generalising 08 joiners

and for the record...
if everybody gets mad when somebody plays MK, and they dont get respected because of the character they play...
THAN HES ALREADY SOFT BANNED and that doesnt solve teh problem

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

you people are terrible at english.

"All of you 08's opinion..."

"...learn about competitive."

"PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed." maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

"Stop treating every player as a whole." what does this even mean?

"...to show your superior is DA BEST..."

"...if the people discussing both have an DEFINITE idea the best you can do is discuss for 893120982-3129383-211983 posts..." what is that number? it's not a real one, i'll tell you that. is it an equation? are you trying to subtract there? who ****ing knows?

"...if ONE OF THE people discussing is really good at speaches he maybe convince the other that people from 08s aint or is newb." golden. just golden. "people from 08s aint or is newb." i think i'm speachless.

this has been going on for a couple pages now. i can't even read half the posts you people make these days.

 

[Master Raven]

It's not really known yet if Yoshi has a neutral matchup vs MK. I am hoping to see some high-level fights between both characters though (and it'll be even better if they have experience with the matchup. Experience is VERY important here).

 

[Kookie]

you people are terrible at english.

"All of you 08's opinion..."

"...learn about competitive."

"PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed." maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

"Stop treating every player as a whole." what does this even mean?

"...to show your superior is DA BEST..."

"...if the people discussing both have an DEFINITE idea the best you can do is discuss for 893120982-3129383-211983 posts..." what is that number? it's not a real one, i'll tell you that. is it an equation? are you trying to subtract there? who ****ing knows?

"...if ONE OF THE people discussing is really good at speaches he maybe convince the other that people from 08s aint or is newb." golden. just golden. "people from 08s aint or is newb." i think i'm speachless.

this has been going on for a couple pages now. i can't even read half the posts you people make these days.

Hey, at least not everyone is typing like they're dyslexic, or something.

 

[Zylar]

and for the record...
if everybody gets mad when somebody plays MK, and they dont get respected because of the character they play...
THAN HES ALREADY SOFT BANNED and that doesnt solve teh problem

WOW, thanks, now I totally understand what a soft ban is!
Soft bans aren't enforcable, just generally excepted by those group of people who play to not pick MK. Even if someone does, they may hate, direspect, but they cannot force him not to play other than pressuring them with the soft ban attitude. A soft ban cannot and will not be universal.

Thus the issue still stays on hard bannin MK as opposed to soft banning, because, obviously, the competative scene shows no such generally excpeted ban.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Hey, at least not everyone is typing like they're dyslexic, or something.

actually, i can understand dyslexia, or a brain glitch, or just an accident. hell, i think most people have that happen; sometimes a letter gets shuffled around, perhaps because one of your fingers got caught on a key and it caused you to mess up. whatever, it happens.

it's the nonsense posts with indecipherable english and indecipherable logic that really make me wonder. i mean, if it was presented to the rest of us as borderline gibberish, what in the world did it sound like in their head?

 

[tocador]

you people are terrible at english.

"All of you 08's opinion..."

"...learn about competitive."

"PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed." maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

"Stop treating every player as a whole." what does this even mean?

"...to show your superior is DA BEST..."

"...if the people discussing both have an DEFINITE idea the best you can do is discuss for 893120982-3129383-211983 posts..." what is that number? it's not a real one, i'll tell you that. is it an equation? are you trying to subtract there? who ****ing knows?

"...if ONE OF THE people discussing is really good at speaches he maybe convince the other that people from 08s aint or is newb." golden. just golden. "people from 08s aint or is newb." i think i'm speachless.

this has been going on for a couple pages now. i can't even read half the posts you people make these days.

if you cant add something good to a discussion why are you criticizing me ^^?

nothing personal, just that your talking about me saying Bu*****ti thought you didnt add nothing constructive at your post ^^

so, your like doing nothing to add to the discussion :D

 

[tocador]

o and i know i suck at english im not american =/

 

[Red Exodus]

I figured I didn't need to mention that if someone makes an intelligent post I accept it for what it is regardless of their join date because if I didn't that would just be silly.

What I'm saying is that a lot of new people have a lot less experience with the community so when they enter a discussion they should bare that in mind. The SBR knows what it's doing, they just didn't pick random people to decide the rules, they picked intelligent, skilled people and those people tried several different rules and changed them to suit the competitive nature of the game.

From the few pages I skimmed [let's be honest, this thread is a mess] I just saw the same arguments from the average Joe with a few arguments from tournament players and BRoomers in between.

Once again, I have to say, the idea is that join date helps show how much experience you have on the site, it doesn't mean if you joined in 2001 you're the smartest guy around and it doesn't mean if you joined in Oct 08 you're a complete rookie, it only helps to show how much you might know, kinda like when E4All hit there was A LOT of arguing about advanced techniques in Brawl. If you weren't around then you wouldn't know how many people wanted advanced techniques out of Brawl or how many people wanted items in Brawl, it was pretty chaotic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

6:4 = soft counter
7:3 or worse = hard counter
Anything in the range of 4:6 to 6:4 will be a match mostly determined by the skill of the player. I don't know why this is overlooked so much.

What I find funny about this whole thing is that Snake could have even BETTER placements then MK, but people would not want him banned because in theory Snake has a few counters. MK could have significantly worse placements, but people want the ban hammer because the line "no counters or worse than even match ups" gets perpetuated so often that its just assumed it translates immediately into results. It doesn't-otherwise I would probably be for banning MK right now. However, the results are slow coming, and there are many examples of MK being completely beatable.

Character X completely destroys the entire cast (80-20 or better), barring one character.

Character Y has reasonable match-ups overall (mostly neutrals, a few advantages, a few disadvantages, etc.), and completely obliterates Character X (70-30 match-up).

Character Y will have better placements by far, but who is more bannable?



As for the "beatable" part, Akuma is technically beatable, does that mean that he shouldn't be banned?

However... it does underscore a major problem within the community, a lack of a constitent ban criteria for this sort of thing. We can't do it Ad Hoc anymore.

I just realized most of the people going for the ban haven't even been around before 08. Go figure.

It's an interesting generalization (and understood already), but it really doesn't matter.

Every so often a person who doesn't have the intelligence/expirience/whatever that should be required for a correct opinion on something actually results in correct results.

Argue vs. the argument, the people involved aren't relevant.

It's not JUST about join date, it's the experience and knowledge that comes with it. That's why you don't see many SBR's that joined recently, they've all been playing for years.

When you get hired for a position for the first time do you just go around and treat everyone in the business the same? Of course not. There's a hierarchy, so you can't just come in with your limited knowledge and tell people what to do because for all your coworkers know you're just the new guy, you watch and learn and then when you get enough knowledge your opinion becomes more valid.

This is the same deal. I can't tell you how many times someone that just made a SWF account would waltz into a thread about the tier list [or something along that line] and just talk utter nonsense because they can beat their friends with character X.

I guess I'm just preaching to the choir, so I'm just wasting my time, when people say the Brawl boards are the worst one they really know what they're talking about.

It's a generalization that does hold, but it's useless. Especially since it's possible to look up the majority of information that defines the brawl community.

If the argument is good, it doesn't matter if the person saying it is an '08er or a 1948er.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

if you cant add something good to a discussion why are you criticizing me ^^?

nothing personal, just that your talking about me saying Bu*****ti thought you didnt add nothing constructive at your post ^^

so, your like doing nothing to add to the discussion :D

i removed my post for you, since you (apparently) forgot(?) about the quote button.

i was part of this discussion since the beginning of this thread, and this topic has been debated for pages and pages even before that. so don't give me your **** about "not adding nothing" to the discussion when you've been here since, what, yesterday? and you still haven't managed to even make a readable post, much less a constructive one.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Red Exodus, I understand what you are saying. However, what your're describing is not so much a phenomenon of this specific year (08) but rather has something to do with the fact, that more and more people come and join SWF. Due to the increasing number of newcommers it gets increasingly hard to find intellignent posters among them. I don't think there are less intelligent 08 posters than 07 posters. There are just way more dumb 08 posters than 07 posters and thus the more intelligent ones are hard to find. (I wonder what ppl will say about the 09ers next year...)

 

[tocador]

ok sorry for being rude and i dont know why but my quote button dont seem to work, and i really dun think you can talk about "wow you joined yesterday mimimimi"

ok what i mean is, i dont want to argue and i dont give a **** for what people say about me cause on the internet you need to form an image of WHO the people is just by what he writes and this dont mean who the person is, so anyone can say the **** they want on the net but since they dont know me in RL why should i care ^^

 

[Tenki]

"PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed." maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

Figurative language.

And now, back to the internet.

l2english n00b luzlzzzlzulzulzuluzz

--------------------

New topic guys!

So, I heard there's this really quick character in barlw that people have problems with.

Can anyone tell me about this?

 

[tocador]

you mean like meta knight? o i heard about this guys, i hear they are tring to ban him but they are having trouble with it cause ppl are discussing other things other then he being banned or not

 

[Zylar]

Tocardor you said you don't want to argue. Yet you are...
If you don't care what people say about you why did you say "ok sorry for being rude"?
BTW, in my opinion it is okay for people to care somewhat what others think. But there is a line. You didn't cross it though.
You should care because you could put a stumbling block in front of yourself by making yourself look "like a noob".
Honestly it is steryotypically noobish to argue against someone saying you don't care what they say or don't care what anyone says.


Anyways, lets just please go back to the original topic, and forget other off topic topics.

 

[Kookie]

Figurative language.

And now, back to the internet.

l2english n00b luzlzzzlzulzulzuluzz

--------------------

New topic guys!

So, I heard there's this really quick character in barlw that people have problems with.

Can anyone tell me about this?

I heard it might be Sonic. Go figure.

 

[Zylar]

Please stop clogging the forum with unproductive posts.

MK is not ban worthy because of his dominance in the game.
MK is ban worthy because of his dominance outside the game which drives people away from the competative scene.
Little is shown that something will be found and stop the loss of players or over-centralization of the game.

 

[Ills]

Please stop clogging the forum with unproductive posts.

MK is not ban worthy because of his dominance in the game.
MK is ban worthy because of his dominance outside the game which drives people away from the competative scene.
Little is shown that something will be found and stop the loss of players or over-centralization of the game.

I don't understand what you are saying here

How if MK dominates outside the game and drives people away from the scene if he's not in the game?

I lost, I dunno.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't understand what you are saying here

How if MK dominates outside the game and drives people away from the scene if he's not in the game?

I lost, I dunno.

Dude, what are you trying to say?

 

[kupo15]

Because banning a character is fairly serious. Some people still hold out some hope that a counter or two will be found and MK can stay unbanned. Personally I think that unless we find something as big as wavedashing or L-cancelling MK will remain broken.

I think that the only thing that would save MK is the L canceling hack when we figure it out. It helps the cast more because MK cant get much faster. But then again, SBR wouldnt allow it so then MK will get banned. I still dont see why we cant ban him now and unban him when a counter is found.

If this game had melee's engine, MK would never be banned. This would be 64 (a better one) all over again where everyone can 0-death everyone. MK would replace a slightly better pika (maybe)

ppl make it sound like the ban hammer is a secret machine that universally removes MK's source code from every game and permanently deletes it. There are things call Phoenix Downs!! lol

 

[Redemption]

"you people are terrible at english.

"All of you 08's opinion..."

"...learn about competitive."

"PLEASE, this makes my mind bleed." maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

"Stop treating every player as a whole." what does this even mean?

"...to show your superior is DA BEST..."

"...if the people discussing both have an DEFINITE idea the best you can do is discuss for 893120982-3129383-211983 posts..." what is that number? it's not a real one, i'll tell you that. is it an equation? are you trying to subtract there? who ****ing knows?

"...if ONE OF THE people discussing is really good at speaches he maybe convince the other that people from 08s aint or is newb." golden. just golden. "people from 08s aint or is newb." i think i'm speachless.

this has been going on for a couple pages now. i can't even read half the posts you people make these days."





"Maybe this is a bit nitpicky", but a lack of capital letters in every sentence of every post you have made is not considered proper English to me. I can let the small "I"s slide, but the beginning of a sentence? Don't go complaining about other people's typing if yours isn't perfection. Got it?

 

[walla_homie]

Ban Meta Knight... his overpowered, cheap and a spam-character
Whorenado FTW
Shuttle P00p FTW

 

[CR4SH]

I still dont see why we cant ban him now and unban him when a counter is found.

OK, imagine "The official "Should/Will Metaknight be Unbanned" Thread"

"Maybe this is a bit nitpicky", but a lack of capital letters in every sentence of every post you have made is not considered proper English to me. I can let the small "I"s slide, but the beginning of a sentence? Don't go complaining about other people's typing if yours isn't perfection. Got it?

Lol, ending a sentence in a preposition.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You people are terrible at english.
maybe this is a bit nitpicky, but minds can't bleed. "minds" aren't physical things.

Extremely nitpicky since it is being used figuratively.

"Maybe this is a bit nitpicky", but a lack of capital letters in every sentence of every post you have made is not considered proper English to me. I can let the small "I"s slide, but the beginning of a sentence? Don't go complaining about other people's typing if yours isn't perfection. Got it?

Agreed.

 

[Kookie]

Irony can be such a sweet sweet thing sometimes.